How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[kacunnin]

As for whether or not it was right to kill Tywin... I admit that's a much more difficult question. It's like asking if it's okay to kill Stalin on the toilet while he's still in power, or let's say Hitler (more relevant since there were several assassination attempts against the latter). I don't believe in the death penalty - I think that if we catch a despicable person (even if he's the worst that you can imagine; if he raped and killed kids for example), I would still be against execution. However, it's a different story if the person is in power, which is why I would have rooted for the assassination of Hitler or Stalin. But we all know that Tyrion wasn't shooting Tywin for the good of the common folk, or the future victims that he might sick his 'Mountain's Men' or 'Brave Companions' on. He was doing it for his own personal vengeance. So I submit to you that, even though killing Tywin would be good for the realm and the common folk, I am conflicted on Tyrion killing him and I don't know the answer nearly as well as I do for Shae.

It is not "right" for Tyrion to murder Tywin (there are no moral grounds for patricide, even when the guy is a horrible father). But it is understandabe. I didn't blame him for doing what he did, considering how Tywin treated him growing up, as well as the role Tywin played in the trial and the sentencing. But the real reason Tyrion killed Tywin was Tysha (in the books, anyway). It was a "last straw" kind of thing -- finding out that his father had innocent Tysha gang raped (leading to Tyrion himself raping her) is just one horror too many.

But it's also why I have such a hard time understanding why he would kill Shae -- anything she did to hurt him was ovbiously coerced (and it should have been as obvious to Tyrion as it is to me). But maybe we can see the Shae killing as the moment where Tyrion snaps -- he sees at last that this woman is a whore, has always been a whore, and never loved him, so he goes a little crazy and does something he never would have done had he thought about it for one single second. And after that, killing Tywin is easy.

Not that this works for the show, however, since the writers made it abundantly clear that Shae DID love Tyrion. But I guess he can still snap. I just hope they show some of the suffering he goes through in the days and weeks after those murders.

[Bridgeburners]

Well I didn't really bother to look for unsullied reactions because there would be no point, really. Self defense. How did I not see that one coming? Maybe they'll make the whore in Pentos rape him, and then he'll say "sorry, sorry sorry" afterwards because he was drunk and didn't know what happened. Show Tyrion can do no wrong, it's the outside world forcing him into his actions. He's guilty of being a dwarf. All hail the gallant white knight Tyrion!

[OnlyOne]

Eh I'm not going to miss either Shae or Ygritte. I don't care what that makes me!

Ditto. In fact, I'm looking forward to more deaths.

[gvewolf243]

Well I didn't really bother to look for unsullied reactions because there would be no point, really. Self defense. How did I not see that one coming? Maybe they'll make the whore in Pentos rape him, and then he'll say "sorry, sorry sorry" afterwards because he was drunk and didn't know what happened. Show Tyrion can do no wrong, it's the outside world forcing him into his actions. He's guilty of being a dwarf. All hail the gallant white knight Tyrion!

Whitewashing will never end. :P

[Frumpus]

D&D said in an interview that book Shae was an opportunist but show Shae actually loved Tyrion. Take that what you will, however I doubt anyone shed a tear when Tyrion killed her on the show.

[jet199]

I've given up on Tyrion's arc in the show, as long as the other story-lines are fair to middling I can ignore his. I'm sure D&D have been told his end game is either a cushy position on the small council or some glorious self-sacrifice. Why should they bother with braking him down and building him back up again when it's much easier to just write him in this one note way the whole time and he'll end up a the same place anyhow.

[Newstar]

Kind of surprised that Shae pulled a knife on him, but it makes sense. I wouldn't call the murder self-defence, since Tyrion kept going after he'd disarmed her, but it was definitely more ambiguous than in the books. Nor is it clear as it was in the books that Tyrion would have murdered her no matter what; in the show, it's not clear what would have happened had Shae not taken the situation from zero to Defcon 1 by grabbing a knife and lunging at him. On the other hand, maybe you can reason that Shae read the situation correctly, that Tyrion was going to kill her no matter what (and given his venomous dismissal of her at the trial, that was probably a reasonable assumption), and there was no talkinh her way out of this one, so she had to strike first or be killed herself.

[HairGrowsBack]

Well I don't know what I expected.

I think at this point it's fair to assume we'll never get anywhere close to Book!Tyrion's complexity, but at least they're being consistent I guess. The same can't be said for all characters.

[cade]

.

[Pesky]

As I was watching Tyrion murder those two, everyone that was watching along with me (whom happen to be strictly show-watchers) were cheering.

Totally opposite reaction that I had when I read the scene. I thought they would be somewhat appalled, but they actually enjoyed it. x_x

[TeethGrinder]

Tyrion murdering Tywin was far more justified in the books. It was 100% for Tysha, that's the reason he asks Varys, the reason he seeks him out and even the major reason that he probably kills Shae. He was obsessed with killing Tywin and quite understanably so.

Shae is a victim but hardly "innocent", she still conspired against him for personal gain and was willing to see him die as a result. Not cool.

I didn't feel a huge amount of sympathy for either of them in the books or the show. In the show I had obviously less sympathy for Shae, whether it was the attacking of Tyrion or the terrible actress I'm not quite sure. Tywin deserved to die and I do think they implied the edgy streak to Tyrion's character by reminding Tywin that he was HIS son, moreso than Jaime or anyone else.

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

I don't see how it has to be a debate about whether Shae was 'justified', though. I mean, that's something I worry about in our culture - that people are eager to condemn people as 'bad guys', and thus, suspend all notion of their human rights. Let's say, in a hypothetical case, that Shae was all bad in this scenario - that she completely played Tyrion for his money, decided of her own volition to testify against him without any persuasion from Tywin or Cersei, and then, simply seduced Tywin because she was horny and for no other reasons. That still doesn't justify Tyrion's murder. She was still a person who posed no threat to him and did her business with whom she chose and did what ever she wanted with her body (which she has every right to do). She contributed to his sentence, but people are reacting as if he strangled her before she testified. No, he did it afterwards, when she no longer posed any threat to him whatsoever. This wasn't an act of self defense or even a move to protect future victims for her treachery, it was 100% bonafide vengeance. That's all the Tyrion-defenders are really defending here, the right for someone to kill someone else because they want revenge, without actual regard for the impact it has.

See, I do argue that Shae deserved quite some sympathy - that she needed to protect her own life, etc, but it bothers me that we should even be having that discussion. You still have to establish the argument that if this person is a bad person deserving no sympathy then it's okay to kill them in cold blood even if they pose no threat to you. I would hope that nobody in our modern world holds that moral position, but apparently a lot of people do which is, to be blunt, pretty damn scary.

I agree with everything you just said, but I was speaking from the context of this being a fictional narrative.

[ADB]

And with that, I think "Tyrion" has surpassed "Jorah" as the most whitewashed character in the show. Interested to hear the writers attempt to justify turning Tyrion's murder of Shae into an act of self-defense.

"Whitewashing" is one of those terms purists use where I pretty much immediately tune it out as silliness. If you want to complain that Tyrion didn't premeditate murdering Shae in cold blood--even though he himself calls it murder--you also have to acknowledge that he very deliberately shot Tywin twice (versus once in the books), to make sure he died and eliminate any chance that it was accidental. Also, the director explained that the scene between Tyrion and Shae was very carefully vague to avoid making it look like anything besides "Shae grabs a knife to defend herself, Tyrion reacts, Shae reacts to Tyrion".

As for how the viewers will feel, my non-reader family viewed it pretty much as it was: the reaction of a man who's been pushed several times past his breaking point. Not even close to "right," but a very human reaction.

[pantouflas]

D&D said in an interview that book Shae was an opportunist but show Shae actually loved Tyrion. Take that what you will, however I doubt anyone shed a tear when Tyrion killed her on the show.

Well, Martin just said that, too..

Here: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

"The Shae in the books is a manipulative camp-follower prostitute who doesnt give a s-t about Tyrion any more than she would any other john, but shes very compliant, like a little teenage sex kitten, feeding all his fantasies; shes really just in it for the money and the status. Shes everything lord Tywin thought Tyrions first wife was that she actually wasnt."

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Tyrion is the good moral constant of the show now. He needs to grow and change though. A touch more devious/dangerous at times would be good. He was a mope as master of coin/prisoner.

[Cybvep]

I'm disappointed. All they had to do was to copy the scene from the books, but they simply had to alter it in a way to make Tyrion look a little better... I also don't like the fact that Tysha wasn't mentioned at all and that Jaime didn't reveal the truth, as it was an important event both for Tyrion and Jaime.

[species5618w]

"Whitewashing" is one of those terms purists use where I pretty much immediately tune it out as silliness. If you want to complain that Tyrion didn't premeditate murdering Shae in cold blood--even though he himself calls it murder--you also have to acknowledge that he very deliberately shot Tywin twice (versus once in the books), to make sure he died and eliminate any chance that it was accidental. Also, the director explained that the scene between Tyrion and Shae was very carefully vague to avoid making it look like anything besides "Shae grabs a knife to defend herself, Tyrion reacts, Shae reacts to Tyrion".

As for how the viewers will feel, my non-reader family viewed it pretty much as it was: the reaction of a man who's been pushed several times past his breaking point. Not even close to "right," but a very human reaction.

A kinslayer is cursed forever in the sight of gods and men.

Given the number of children being sexually abused by their parents yet didn't end up killing them, I'd say it's a very inhuman reaction, especially without the Tysha part.

Tyrion would have been abandoned at birth if he was born to a commoner father, instead Tywin let him "bear my name and display my colors" and "waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him". How about "a little bloody gratitude"?

[Janicia]

Kind of surprised that Shae pulled a knife on him, but it makes sense. I wouldn't call the murder self-defence, since Tyrion kept going after he'd disarmed her, but it was definitely more ambiguous than in the books. Nor is it clear as it was in the books that Tyrion would have murdered her no matter what; in the show, it's not clear what would have happened had Shae not taken the situation from zero to Defcon 1 by grabbing a knife and lunging at him. On the other hand, maybe you can reason that Shae read the situation correctly, that Tyrion was going to kill her no matter what (and given his venomous dismissal of her at the trial, that was probably a reasonable assumption), and there was no talkinh her way out of this one, so she had to strike first or be killed herself.

I agree. But it was entirely in Shae's nature as portrayed in the show. She pulled a knife on another of Sansa's maids and talked about using it to defend herself against Stannis' pillaging army, even though her little knife was futile in either case. But Shae had an abusive background, and Tyrion startling her in Tywin's bed after a rough break-up - that is the kind of thing that triggers a fight or flight response. I saw her actions as defensive - she stayed in the bed and he moved in and jumped on her, but she did seem to trigger Tyrion to violence.

[Onna Lewyys]

Also, the director explained that the scene between Tyrion and Shae was very carefully vague to avoid making it look like anything besides "Shae grabs a knife to defend herself, Tyrion reacts, Shae reacts to Tyrion".

Yeah, this is the same director who argued that the sept scene wasn't rape because Cersei wrapped her legs around Jaime. So it wouldn't be the first time his interpretation of events didn't come through as clearly as he thought.

[species5618w]

I'm curious, the people who do not believe it was okay for Tyrion to murder Shae, do they feel the same way about Tywin? Not trolling here, just genuinely curious.

Tywin did it for his family (however twisted his notion of family was), it's the (nasty) means to an (terrible) end. Tyrion did it for personal revenge, it's the end by itself. I think both are okay in a fantasy world and both would not be okay in the real world.