How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Seneti]

Given how many other scenes have been sanitised so far, it wouldn't surprise me if Shae's murder will be changed in the tv adaptation to make Tyrion more likeable.

That was easy to sanitize, just make him decide not to go through with it much earlier. But how exactly do you "sanitize" a murder?

My guess: he will not strangle her (slowly, up close and personal), but shoot her with the crossbow instead (quick, distanced and less personal). It would also make sense from a logical point of view. Tyrion (a dwarf) managing to strangle a grown woman never made much sense to me in the books.

[Woman of War]

But there was the chain Tyrion tried to give Shae or there would be the Hand's pin.

I think for Tyrion's at least ephemerical road to darkness the very visceral act of killing would be necessary.

I personally would like it if they made the betrayal by Shae quite clear and yet managed to show the wrongness and cruelty of that killing. I would like the message transported that any killing is WRONG. Fantasy genre typical justification of inflicting death on others is is so often part of cheap heroic arcs, heroes kill and killing is justified in fantasy tropes as collateral damage in shaping good as well as bad guys. This show is relatively good in describing death as horrible and not as heroic. And so I do not think they need to give the audience an excuse for pitying Shae, even if she is a despicable liar killing her is WRONG.

As any killing is, may it be death penalty or war, no excuses please.

And Tyrion will have to deal with his deed for the rest of his story, even if his fate may take a relatively positive turn in the end he will have grown as person by recognising what he did. Sad as it sounds for the victims his deeds will be an enhancement and enrichment for the development of his literary character. So no mitigation of Shae's killing please.

[micovski]

Yeah well, she's quite annoying so I might cheer.

I was a bit shocked when Tyrion killed Shae in the books but watching the TV series I find her so annoying that I actually want it to happen now.

Shae is so self righteous and expects so much from Tyrion she forgets who she is.

TV Shae has much less of my sympathy then book Shae.

[wallofice]

It's unfortunate to me that so many audience members take the view of "I don't like that character, so I'm glad they're dead," but it's precisely that attitude that makes me think they won't need to change up Shae's death. They can have Tyrion kill Shae as horrifically as he did in the books, and people will cheer him on and maybe even miss the point - that Tyrion becoming a murderer is not a good or rootable thing, but a sign of him allowing himself to become the monster people think he is.

I personally love Shae, but if the show is going to kill her off, then I hope the show does its best point to point out how wrong that is rather than trying to sanitize it. Tywin's death has the 'kinslayer' stigma attached to it no matter what - plus people actually like Tywin, lol - so that part's probably taken care of. I used to think they would try to keep Tyrion looking good by having Tywin kill Shae and Tyrion shooting him for that reason, or at least have Tywin send Shae away and make her the new Tysha for "Where do whores go?" But now I see how way or reason for either of those to happen, so I assume it'll be like the books.

[Bridgeburners]

But there was the chain Tyrion tried to give Shae or there would be the Hand's pin.

I think for Tyrion's at least ephemerical road to darkness the very visceral act of killing would be necessary.

I personally would like it if they made the betrayal by Shae quite clear and yet managed to show the wrongness and cruelty of that killing. I would like the message transported that any killing is WRONG. Fantasy genre typical justification of inflicting death on others is is so often part of cheap heroic arcs, heroes kill and killing is justified in fantasy tropes as collateral damage in shaping good as well as bad guys. This show is relatively good in describing death as horrible and not as heroic. And so I do not think they need to give the audience an excuse for pitying Shae, even if she is a despicable liar killing her is WRONG.

As any killing is, may it be death penalty or war, no excuses please.

And Tyrion will have to deal with his deed for the rest of his story, even if his fate may take a relatively positive turn in the end he will have grown as person by recognising what he did. Sad as it sounds for the victims his deeds will be an enhancement and enrichment for the development of his literary character. So no mitigation of Shae's killing please.

I'd like to think so, but in the last episode (ep8) when it showed Ygritte skewering the brothel owner who was nasty to Gilly, I could have sworn that the director was portraying that as some sort of awesome triumphant moment, painting Ygritte a hero. Maybe it was just my imagination, but I felt really uncomfortable... like the show is trying to make me some cheering bloodthirsty hound that I'm not (and others in this thread are, apparently).

Anyway, we saw it in Breaking Bad, when people were applauding some of Walter White's horrific acts, and we're going to see it in GoT. It's an unfortunate indication of people's desensitization to murder from Hollywood, but that's just, like, their opinion man. Let's remember, when GRRM wrote the strangling, he didn't even describe it. He just mentioned Tyrion beginning, and skipped right to "afterwards". It was either too horrific and emotional for GRRM to go through, or he was indicating in the narrative that Tyrion couldn't even face what he did, so it was, in a sense, stricken from his memory and we didn't get to read the description of it.

[DaveyJoe]

I'd like to think so, but in the last episode (ep8) when it showed Ygritte skewering the brothel owner who was nasty to Gilly, I could have sworn that the director was portraying that as some sort of awesome triumphant moment, painting Ygritte a hero. Maybe it was just my imagination, but I felt really uncomfortable... like the show is trying to make me some cheering bloodthirsty hound that I'm not (and others in this thread are, apparently).

I didn't get that impression.

[aussiegirl]

Eh I'm not going to miss either Shae or Ygritte. I don't care what that makes me!

[Woman of War]

Anyway, we saw it in Breaking Bad, when people were applauding some of Walter White's horrific acts, and we're going to see it in GoT. It's an unfortunate indication of people's desensitization to murder from Hollywood, but that's just, like, their opinion man. Let's remember, when GRRM wrote the strangling, he didn't even describe it. He just mentioned Tyrion beginning, and skipped right to "afterwards". It was either too horrific and emotional for GRRM to go through, or he was indicating in the narrative that Tyrion couldn't even face what he did, so it was, in a sense, stricken from his memory and we didn't get to read the description of it.

It is a huge, huge difference if you continue to love a character and to root for him, knowing he has done wrong and dark deeds or if you cheer for that character when he does those deeds, finding excuses (explanations are not always excuses) and conveniently forgetting that those deeds are dark.

Yes, I as well wondered when reading about the minimum bone structure when the killing of Shae was described, somewhat like a police or forensic report.

But I did not get that impression about Ygritte either. If anything, she was described as more bloodthirsty than in the books.

[WingZero]

My guess: he will not strangle her (slowly, up close and personal), but shoot her with the crossbow instead (quick, distanced and less personal). It would also make sense from a logical point of view. Tyrion (a dwarf) managing to strangle a grown woman never made much sense to me in the books.

You overestimate the strength of a petite woman and underestimate the strength of a battle hardened tyrion.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I really wish they didn't introduce the golden chains.

The Hand of the King badge in the show looks like the perfect weapon for stabbing, and i'd love to see it used that way against Shae. Would be very brutal indeed.

[Janicia]

I'm wondering if the show can produce a smooth callback to Tysha. Tyrion told that story once, in early season 2. Bronn referred to it once in season 3. Jaime might have been thinking about it once in Season 4. As a watcher of any other show, I would never remember that story well enough to understand Jaime's confession unless he retold the whole story.

Tyrion needs something to make him decide to kill Tywin. Since there aren't secret passages in the show, it could just be that while Varys escorts him out of the castle, Tyrion catches sight of Shae, realizes she's sleeping with his father, and that triggers him. Or Jaime or Varys could hint about Shae/Tywin, and set Tyrion off. Tyrion also has plenty to mope about next season without reopening the Tysha wound. I like the Tysha reveal, but the show doesn't need the Tysha reveal to move the plot forward, and I'm not sure the Tysha reveal makes the show better.

Further, while Tyrion knows about Lancel, he doesn't know about any other extracurricular activities Cersei might have pursued, and Lancel ended years ago. If Tyrion doesn't have much to reveal to Jaime, is it necessary for Jaime to have much to reveal to Tyrion? The murder of Tywin drives a pretty huge wedge between them.

I feel confident that the show will convey the gravity of Tyrion's murders. The show has done an excellent job showing the darkness and tragedy of Arya's descent into murder, even though she's only killed "bad guys". It will be powerful and dark and sad and Tyrion will suffer for it.

[storm.131]

That was easy to sanitize, just make him decide not to go through with it much earlier. But how exactly do you "sanitize" a murde

I meant sanitise the story not the murder. For example, they could change it so he doesn't strangle her but leaves in disgust. Shae is subsequently killed by someone else (e.g. Cersei) and Tyrion is tormented by the fact that he left her to die. Use your imagination.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Shae is so self righteous and expects so much from Tyrion she forgets who she is.

Kind of like Bronn?

[Seneti]

Tyrion needs something to make him decide to kill Tywin. Since there aren't secret passages in the show, it could just be that while Varys escorts him out of the castle, Tyrion catches sight of Shae, realizes she's sleeping with his father, and that triggers him. Or Jaime or Varys could hint about Shae/Tywin, and set Tyrion off. Tyrion also has plenty to mope about next season without reopening the Tysha wound. I like the Tysha reveal, but the show doesn't need the Tysha reveal to move the plot forward, and I'm not sure the Tysha reveal makes the show better.

Who says there are none? We haven't seen them yet, but then again, they haven't been truly relevant until now.

[teemo]

It seems difficult to believe that D&D would actually have Tyrion murder Shae, but it will be a really disappointing deviation if they do anything but. There is some foreshadowing for it, however, with her nasty testimony and the chains we saw earlier in the series.

[Skythe1]

I don't know why but I can just see it playing out as Shae seeing that Tyrion killed Tywin, and he feels like he's left with no choice but to kill her too.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm wondering if the show can produce a smooth callback to Tysha. Tyrion told that story once, in early season 2. Bronn referred to it once in season 3. Jaime might have been thinking about it once in Season 4. As a watcher of any other show, I would never remember that story well enough to understand Jaime's confession unless he retold the whole story.

Tyrion needs something to make him decide to kill Tywin. Since there aren't secret passages in the show, it could just be that while Varys escorts him out of the castle, Tyrion catches sight of Shae, realizes she's sleeping with his father, and that triggers him. Or Jaime or Varys could hint about Shae/Tywin, and set Tyrion off. Tyrion also has plenty to mope about next season without reopening the Tysha wound. I like the Tysha reveal, but the show doesn't need the Tysha reveal to move the plot forward, and I'm not sure the Tysha reveal makes the show better.

Further, while Tyrion knows about Lancel, he doesn't know about any other extracurricular activities Cersei might have pursued, and Lancel ended years ago. If Tyrion doesn't have much to reveal to Jaime, is it necessary for Jaime to have much to reveal to Tyrion? The murder of Tywin drives a pretty huge wedge between them.

I feel confident that the show will convey the gravity of Tyrion's murders. The show has done an excellent job showing the darkness and tragedy of Arya's descent into murder, even though she's only killed "bad guys". It will be powerful and dark and sad and Tyrion will suffer for it.

Just off the top of my head.......I remember in the show Cersei asking if Tyrion married his latest whore, while she was tormenting him over her capture of said whore, said whore being the wrong whore but it was mentioned. I also recall Tyrion reminding Tywin that he WAS MARRIED ONCE, when Tywin started on the Sansa marriage plot. Wasn't the original Tysha story told to Bronn and Shae in Season 1? Anyway, that's off the top of my head, all the Tyrion mentions of his previous marriage, I may even be forgetting some.

I do think that Jaime will tell, that look at the mention of falling in love with a whore and believing to be loved back durign their cell chat spoke volumes. I'm more concerned with the lack of Kettleblack to go with the Lancel issue.

As for show watchers I suspect many will cheer at the death, that is the way tv is nowadays. But, I do hope if it all goes down that the show manages to convey, moving forward, that it does seem to be one of the recent acts, not counting Tysha, that Tyrion is so ashamed of......and leads to much of the descent into darkness in ADWD. IIRC, he refers to himself as a shell of himself, a vengeful revenant who murdered Shae and his father. Granted, I don't find much sympathy for Tywin, atall, especially book Tywin, but I guess it is hard to deal with murdering your father, even one who begged for it his whole life.

One of my questions on the Shae issue is........will we ever find out, book or show wise.......how she came to testify, and or, the details on her being in Tywin's room and how long something like that might have been going on? I do recall how Cersei remembered denying her the jewels, etc., and I've wondered if Shae had taken her case to Tywin? Or, was there something there all along? I don't think many show watchers will care, not only was she awful to Tyrion in the end, she threw her beloved Sansa under the bus, too. If we don't find out why she did each specific thing, many won't care.

[Bridgeburners]

I'm not too worried about people forgetting Tysha. First, they will most likely show that S1 clip of Tyrion telling the story in the recap. Secondly, if Tyrion becomes infuriated at Jamie and the audience doesn't understand why, they will ask their peers/look it up. Something similar happened in Breaking Bad in the last season; something very vague (much vaguer than a direct confession, in fact) brings a revelation to a certain character, which is connected to an event a few seasons past, which was thought long forgotten, and he becomes infuriated by that revelation and the entire direction of the show changes. Most people didn't understand how he came to that revelation and it had to be explained on many online outlets. But it remains one of my favourite parts of the whole show.

Anyway, I almost never use Twitter, but after the episode I'm going to go on and search #Shae just to see some of the reactions. Though I suspect that I might be looking at a biased sample, as those who tend to have Shae stick out in their minds from the shit-storm of Tyrion's scene might be more likely to be compassionate of Shae than the average group of viewers.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'm not too worried about people forgetting Tysha. First, they will most likely show that S1 clip of Tyrion telling the story in the recap. Secondly, if Tyrion becomes infuriated at Jamie and the audience doesn't understand why, they will ask their peers/look it up. Something similar happened in Breaking Bad in the last season; something very vague (much vaguer than a direct confession, in fact) brings a revelation to a certain character, which is connected to an event a few seasons past, which was thought long forgotten, and he becomes infuriated by that revelation and the entire direction of the show changes. Most people didn't understand how he came to that revelation and it had to be explained on many online outlets. But it remains one of my favourite parts of the whole show.

Anyway, I almost never use Twitter, but after the episode I'm going to go on and search #Shae just to see some of the reactions. Though I suspect that I might be looking at a biased sample, as those who tend to have Shae stick out in their minds from the shit-storm of Tyrion's scene might be more likely to be compassionate of Shae than the average group of viewers.

LOL, I don't use Twitter much either other than to keep up with a few old internet buddies, but it is good for gauging reaction. I'd search both #gameofthrones and maybe #shae or #tyrionandshae just to be safe. I usually open a few windows if I'm interested to look for opinions, good pics and gifs and such. It can be really fun.

I do think with Tyrion being one of the most attention getting characters from show only watchers along with the fact of Previously Ons and the mentions each season that his marriage has received, that won't be hard for many to follow. Besides, I'm sure Jaime and Tyrion will flesh some of it out themselves during the finale.

[DaveyJoe]

I don't know why but I can just see it playing out as Shae seeing that Tyrion killed Tywin, and he feels like he's left with no choice but to kill her too.

That's not necessary, Tyrion has all ready been sentenced to death for losing his trial by combat. He has no choice but to go into exile. They can't kill him extra for murdering Tywin.