How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I hope so, too. But we'll see. They just love Tyrion so much that they can't imagine him doing anything that would change how they feel about him (short of killing Dany's dragons, which they also love).

I read the books this past spring, in anticipation of the fourth TV season, and when I got to the part where Tyrion killed Shae I was totally shocked. And I said to myself, "no way can this happen on the show." But now I think it will happen.

I don't think book-Shae deserved to die, either (she was just a working girl, after all, doing what working girls have to do to get by). But she's such a minor character in the book that it probably doesn't have that same impact for those who read it before the TV show (where Shae is a much, much more developed character).

It's funny, though, how readily everyone accepted what Bronn did (pretty much dumping Tyrion in his moment of need for a cushy marriage arranged by Cersei), but can't deal with Shae's betrayal.

I will never understand why some people seem to think Bronn was obligated to die for Tyrion in the circumstances of the trial by combat. First off, Tyrion wasn't exactly forced into that position, he chose the combat. Granted, he didn't see anything other than impending execution, but why is Bronn obligated to die for him. Bronn never testified against Tyrion, he took the marriage Cersei gave him, and gave nothing in return.........not even half shaded testimony. Granted, in the books Bronn comes off darker, the humor is skewed differently than on the show, but I do think that while many, even myself, are conditioned to think a Bronn is supposed to come in and save the day..........if we want to look at it from a distance, there is no reason that Bronn actually owes Tyrion his life's blood. Tyrion, book and show, understood that.

[Bridgeburners]

I will never understand why some people seem to think Bronn was obligated to die for Tyrion in the circumstances of the trial by combat. First off, Tyrion wasn't exactly forced into that position, he chose the combat. Granted, he didn't see anything other than impending execution, but why is Bronn obligated to die for him. Bronn never testified against Tyrion, he took the marriage Cersei gave him, and gave nothing in return.........not even half shaded testimony. Granted, in the books Bronn comes off darker, the humor is skewed differently than on the show, but I do think that while many, even myself, are conditioned to think a Bronn is supposed to come in and save the day..........if we want to look at it from a distance, there is no reason that Bronn actually owes Tyrion his life's blood. Tyrion, book and show, understood that.

I've never heard of anyone decrying Bronn for not fighting. That was kacunnin's point, I think... that everybody is okay with Bronn not risking his life to save Tyrion's, yet they don't forgive Shae for the same thing (assuming she was threatened by the queen as she claims).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I've never heard of anyone decrying Bronn for not fighting. That was kacunnin's point, I think... that everybody is okay with Bronn not risking his life to save Tyrion's, yet they don't forgive Shae for the same thing (assuming she was threatened by the queen as she claims).

I have, though, that was my point, LOL Mostly from readers, though, probably because Bronn, while still dark on the show, isn't as dark and seemingly unfeeling as BookBronn.

[Aethermancer]

But for Tyrion's act to be a "crime of passion," something has to happen to make him hate her that much.

No. Crime of passion is used to describe murders based on sudden emotional loss of reason. It's not something that builds up over time, it's the literal opposite of that.

[Aethermancer]

I've never heard of anyone decrying Bronn for not fighting. That was kacunnin's point, I think... that everybody is okay with Bronn not risking his life to save Tyrion's, yet they don't forgive Shae for the same thing (assuming she was threatened by the queen as she claims).

The difference is this:

What Bronn 'did', was to not take action.

What Shae 'did', was to participate in the activity designed to kill Tyrion.

[Annara Snow]

They will love it that Tyrion kills the false snake Shae

The death of Tywin will be harder to take for the watcher, Tywin was the best leader Westeros ever had.

strong, hard, brilliant, a born leader

If by "leader" you mean criminal.

I was delighted when he was murdered. And I don't feel bad about it at all. That's the only justice he was ever going to face. If any death was ever worth cheering, it was Tywin's.

[Bridgeburners]

The difference is this:

What Bronn 'did', was to not take action.

What Shae 'did', was to participate in the activity designed to kill Tyrion.

It's also different because Bronn was avoiding simply a chance of dying, whereas Shae was avoiding certain death. But I suppose it's the obligation of any prostitute to sacrifice her life to give her client a (small) chance to survive. Otherwise she's a stupid bitch who deserves to die.

[Florina Laufeyson]

It's funny, though, how readily everyone accepted what Bronn did (pretty much dumping Tyrion in his moment of need for a cushy marriage arranged by Cersei), but can't deal with Shae's betrayal.

I think this has a lot to do with how Bronn and Shae are both presented. Bronn is portrayed as unscrupulous and has outright stated that he's in it for Bronn. His line in season 2 says it all: [baby killing] "I'd ask how much."

:dunno: So if Bronn sees an out, its in line with what the viewer knows of him.

As for Shae, in the show at least, she is portrayed as in love with Tyrion. Unlike in the books, Shae isnt implied to be in it just for Shae. She reiterates that shes genuine a lot of the time (and its annoying...so very annoying. Shae is annoying in general) and her betrayal is seen as a woman scorned, not as a way for her to get more things by throwing Tyrion under the bus. She displays jealousy towards Sansa and is even willing to throw Sansa under the bus. (which by this point, is a real dick move on Shae's part.) So her betrayal tends to cut deeper.

I just cant wait for her to go byebye. Ugh Shae.

[Bridgeburners]

I think this has a lot to do with how Bronn and Shae are both presented. Bronn is portrayed as unscrupulous and has outright stated that he's in it for Bronn. His line in season 2 says it all: [baby killing] "I'd ask how much."

:dunno: So if Bronn sees an out, its in line with what the viewer knows of him.

As for Shae, in the show at least, she is portrayed as in love with Tyrion. Unlike in the books, Shae isnt implied to be in it just for Shae. She reiterates that shes genuine a lot of the time (and its annoying...so very annoying. Shae is annoying in general) and her betrayal is seen as a woman scorned, not as a way for her to get more things by throwing Tyrion under the bus. She displays jealousy towards Sansa and is even willing to throw Sansa under the bus. (which by this point, is a real dick move on Shae's part.) So her betrayal tends to cut deeper.

I just cant wait for her to go byebye. Ugh Shae.

Eh I'm not going to miss either Shae or Ygritte. I don't care what that makes me!

I should say, there's really nothing wrong with hating the character. I'm not all that fond of her TBH (conflicting with my OP, I know, but that was a year ago and her character has pretty much grown off me). I don't know why people are feeling bad about saying they dislike her, or can't wait for her to get off the show, that's all right. Plus, derp, she's fictional! They're all fictional. We can say "fuck them all let them all blow up please and let the Others feast on their entrails" and that doesn't make us bad people.

That's completely different from saying that Tyrion was justified in killing Shae.

[Volverin]

He decided to kill her when he saw her in his father's bed.

Still doesn't mean it was justified. Its still very much controversial as it should be.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I should say, there's really nothing wrong with hating the character. I'm not all that fond of her TBH (conflicting with my OP, I know, but that was a year ago and her character has pretty much grown off me). I don't know why people are feeling bad about saying they dislike her, or can't wait for her to get off the show, that's all right. Plus, derp, she's fictional! They're all fictional. We can say "fuck them all let them all blow up please and let the Others feast on their entrails" and that doesn't make us bad people.

That's completely different from saying that Tyrion was justified in killing Shae.

Well i was explaining why people might be pretty bent on Shae in the show. I really have a special sort of loathing for her and it has little to do with her manipulating Tyrion. (I just think shes annoying and actually pretty gross. In the show, shes just face-punchingly annoying.) Tyrion's murder of her is really a low blow for him. Its bad. Ill probably be the first to say it despite hating the character. Tywin deserved it because he was such a bastage. Shae was in it for the ride (hue) and didnt really deserve to be strangled.

[sj4iy]

Well i was explaining why people might be pretty bent on Shae in the show. I really have a special sort of loathing for her and it has little to do with her manipulating Tyrion. (I just think shes annoying and actually pretty gross. In the show, shes just face-punchingly annoying.) Tyrion's murder of her is really a low blow for him. Its bad. Ill probably be the first to say it despite hating the character. Tywin deserved it because he was such a bastage. Shae was in it for the ride (hue) and didnt really deserve to be strangled.

Her jealousy of Sansa in the show just killed me, tbh. It was obvious that Tyrion was never going to leave his lifestyle to go off with her, yet she keeps harping on him about it just to make his life more miserable. I just wanted to say "Just fucking leave already, bitch, he's not going to do what you want!"

*Sigh* but I knew she wouldn't XD

[Florina Laufeyson]

Her jealousy of Sansa in the show just killed me, tbh. It was obvious that Tyrion was never going to leave his lifestyle to go off with her, yet she keeps harping on him about it just to make his life more miserable. I just wanted to say "Just fucking leave already, bitch, he's not going to do what you want!"

*Sigh* but I knew she wouldn't XD

Seriously. Especially after Shae is all "i love that girl." Rubbish. If Shae loved Sansa, she would have understood why Sansa was in the position she was in and that Sansa didnt want Tyrion. Envy is one thing, but outright jealousy to the point of throwing the poor girl under the bus...its just foul. Show!Shae really pissed me off with that. By this time, i was in full mode of rooting for Sansa.

[kacunnin]

I will never understand why some people seem to think Bronn was obligated to die for Tyrion in the circumstances of the trial by combat. First off, Tyrion wasn't exactly forced into that position, he chose the combat. Granted, he didn't see anything other than impending execution, but why is Bronn obligated to die for him. Bronn never testified against Tyrion, he took the marriage Cersei gave him, and gave nothing in return.........not even half shaded testimony. Granted, in the books Bronn comes off darker, the humor is skewed differently than on the show, but I do think that while many, even myself, are conditioned to think a Bronn is supposed to come in and save the day..........if we want to look at it from a distance, there is no reason that Bronn actually owes Tyrion his life's blood. Tyrion, book and show, understood that.

I certainly don't think Bronn was obligated to die for Tyrion (or even to risk his life), and neither does Tyrion. What I see as a double standard is that Tyrion (and many, many fans) do think Shae should have died for Tyrion. That was probably her only option -- if she refused to testify (or if she refused Tywin), she would have been killed. Tywin already threatened to kill her, and that was just for being in Kings Landing with Tyrion! And Tyrion HAS to know that.

He was angry with Bronn for choosing life (and position, wealth, marriage, etc.) over Tyrion, but he will KILL Shae for doing the same thing. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I certainly don't think Bronn was obligated to die for Tyrion (or even to risk his life), and neither does Tyrion. What I see as a double standard is that Tyrion (and many, many fans) do think Shae should have died for Tyrion. That was probably her only option -- if she refused to testify (or if she refused Tywin), she would have been killed. Tywin already threatened to kill her, and that was just for being in Kings Landing with Tyrion! And Tyrion HAS to know that.

He was angry with Bronn for choosing life (and position, wealth, marriage, etc.) over Tyrion, but he will KILL Shae for doing the same thing. Doesn't make sense to me.

He never fucked Bronn, either. My post was really just about the Bronn situation and how, surprising as it is, some readers do take Bronn to task for not taking the shot at another death sentence for him.

I do agree, though, that both should be viewed along the same lines. I do believe that Shae was probably in serious danger.

[kacunnin]

I think this has a lot to do with how Bronn and Shae are both presented. Bronn is portrayed as unscrupulous and has outright stated that he's in it for Bronn. His line in season 2 says it all: [baby killing] "I'd ask how much."

:dunno: So if Bronn sees an out, its in line with what the viewer knows of him.

As for Shae, in the show at least, she is portrayed as in love with Tyrion. Unlike in the books, Shae isnt implied to be in it just for Shae. She reiterates that shes genuine a lot of the time (and its annoying...so very annoying. Shae is annoying in general) and her betrayal is seen as a woman scorned, not as a way for her to get more things by throwing Tyrion under the bus. She displays jealousy towards Sansa and is even willing to throw Sansa under the bus. (which by this point, is a real dick move on Shae's part.) So her betrayal tends to cut deeper.

I just cant wait for her to go byebye. Ugh Shae.

So if Shae is reacting out of being hurt by Tyrion (who pretty much told her she's scum and he could never love her), she's a bitch and deserves to die, while Bronn is a good-old-boy because he never pretended to give a shit about Tyrion? That doesn't make sense!

The only possible reasons show-Shae has for testifying against Tyrion are, 1) she was forced at threat of death, or 2) she was so hurt and demoralized by Tyrion's rejection of her that she just wanted to hurt him back. Most likely, it was a combination of both, because there's no way either Cersei or Tywin would have let her walk away if she refused to testify. But either way, Tyrion KNOWS she loved him, and he KNOWS he hurt her by the cruel things he said. Killing her is just ridiculous.

[sj4iy]

I certainly don't think Bronn was obligated to die for Tyrion (or even to risk his life), and neither does Tyrion. What I see as a double standard is that Tyrion (and many, many fans) do think Shae should have died for Tyrion. That was probably her only option -- if she refused to testify (or if she refused Tywin), she would have been killed. Tywin already threatened to kill her, and that was just for being in Kings Landing with Tyrion! And Tyrion HAS to know that.

He was angry with Bronn for choosing life (and position, wealth, marriage, etc.) over Tyrion, but he will KILL Shae for doing the same thing. Doesn't make sense to me.

Difference being that Shae had AMPLE opportunity to leave, was even given all the money she needed to set up comfortably for the rest of her life, and steadfastly refused to do so, over and over again, in the vain hope that she would change Tyrion's mind about it. Tyrion was facing execution, and she comes in there and lies about what he said and did to convict him. Forced or not, she chose her own life over his. That's why I don't see any problem with Tyrion doing the same to her.

[kacunnin]

He never fucked Bronn, either. My post was really just about the Bronn situation and how, surprising as it is, some readers do take Bronn to task for not taking the shot at another death sentence for him.

I do agree, though, that both should be viewed along the same lines. I do believe that Shae was probably in serious danger.

But Shae can't be blamed for fucking Tyrion, since that was her job. I believe that show-Shae truly loved Tyrion, but either way, her job was to fuck him, and to make him believe she liked doing it. Had Shae behaved with Tyrion as Bronn did (openly telling him she only liked him for his gold), she would have been out of a job!

I've honestly never heard anyone (either readers of HBO watchers) arguing that Bronn should have fought the Mountain for Tyrion. Some thought he might, but no one seemed bothered when he didn't. It's just the double-standard that irritates me.

[kacunnin]

Difference being that Shae had AMPLE opportunity to leave, was even given all the money she needed to set up comfortably for the rest of her life, and steadfastly refused to do so, over and over again, in the vain hope that she would change Tyrion's mind about it. Tyrion was facing execution, and she comes in there and lies about what he said and did to convict him. Forced or not, she chose her own life over his. That's why I don't see any problem with Tyrion doing the same to her.

Shae refused to leave because she truly loved Tyrion and believed he loved her. It's very different than it was in the books (where she was always whining about clothes and apartments). Show-Shae was stupid, but she was soap opera stupid (this is a very common soap opera motif -- hero dumps girlfriend to "save her" from the bad guys, but she's so broken up that she ends up hurting him back).

Sure, Shae chose her life over Tyrion's (partly because she believed his stupid break-up words), but so did Bronn. And so would Tyrion have done, had the tables been turned. He brought Shae to King's Landing even after his father specificially said he'd have her killed if he ever saw her there. So he started the whole thing in motion. No, he had no right to kill her.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

But Shae can't be blamed for fucking Tyrion, since that was her job. I believe that show-Shae truly loved Tyrion, but either way, her job was to fuck him, and to make him believe she liked doing it. Had Shae behaved with Tyrion as Bronn did (openly telling him she only liked him for his gold), she would have been out of a job!

I've honestly never heard anyone (either readers of HBO watchers) arguing that Bronn should have fought the Mountain for Tyrion. Some thought he might, but no one seemed bothered when he didn't. It's just the double-standard that irritates me.

Well, I have seen posts from readers over the past few years taking Bronn to task, calling it a betrayal of Tyrion, things like that. :dunno:

Where did I blame Shae for fucking Tyrion? I was making an observation about the nature of Shae and Tyrion's relationship in contrast to the one with Bronn. As unfair as it seems, fucking can figure into crimes of passion, usually much more so than a relationship about being a paid body guard. That also brings up a difference in the murders.......Tyrion comes looking for Tywin and answers about Tysha while it's a fluke that he finds Shae there in Daddy's bed, all of which multiplies the happenstance and crime of passion scenario that results in Shae's death.