How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Martini Sigil]

I too wish that they'd have done the "Tyrion kills Shae & Tywin" scene more like the books.... sometimes I like the changes, but not this time....

3....2.....1.....

..... and now I'm over it.

[Ulthosian Stark]

She condemned him and SANSA an even more innocent girl then herself to die with her testimony during the trial.

So, for condemning a girl who you had said you would kill for, I do believe Tyrion did the right thing in strangling her. She sucked. And after all the bitchery she starts banging TYWIN. Out of anyone. So yeah she deserved it and I was cheering and clapping when I finally saw it

[Daske]

For many book readers Tyrion has just reached the point in the books where he about to drop from one of their favourite characters to one of the dullest and least sympathetic. I think the scene was pitched just right for the show to probably avoid this route. Shae's was still murder, but less clear cut on how cold-blooded. We need to retain some sympathy for him while he is in the depths of self-loathing, else the audience will be hating him as just another evil entitled Lannister, and worse - one that has become boringly self-pitying.

[RattleSnake]

Tyrion was kind of whitewashed in the TV series. At least that's how I see it. They made Shae's death seem as self defense.

Most of the GoT watchers I know still like Tyrion and think Shae deserved her death. I don't agree to this idea.

[Woman of War]

For many book readers Tyrion has just reached the point in the books where he about to drop from one of their favourite characters to one of the dullest and least sympathetic. I think the scene was pitched just right for the show to probably avoid this route. Shae's was still murder, but less clear cut on how cold-blooded. We need to retain some sympathy for him while he is in the depths of self-loathing, else the audience will be hating him as just another evil entitled Lannister, and worse - one that has become boringly self-pitying.

And yet many book fans still like Tyrion in all his complexity even after he killed Shae and Tywin and never saw him as boringly self pitying. I do not want to use the stupid term whitewashing but may characters were made easier to digest for the show, beginning with Sansa over Cersei, Sandor and Tywin. Of course it always takes some complexity but that counts for all characters concerned.

[Onna Lewyys]

She condemned him and SANSA an even more innocent girl then herself to die with her testimony during the trial.

So, for condemning a girl who you had said you would kill for, I do believe Tyrion did the right thing in strangling her. She sucked. And after all the bitchery she starts banging TYWIN. Out of anyone. So yeah she deserved it and I was cheering and clapping when I finally saw it

But that's all exactly why it was out of character for her to do that, and, therefore, bad writing. D&D completely changed her character from the books to the show but then ultimately still forced her to follow the same story as in the book, and it was like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[Daske]

Woman of War...

I don't see how the show has made Tyrion less complex. Show Tyrion is a fascinating character even if somewhat different to the books.

In exile he will still be depressed and full of self-loathing - that will remain. The thing is it just isn't very much fun reading about (or watching) a character who has done evil things and feeling sorry for themselves about it. It's their own fault - tough! What's Arya up to please?

Making the murder of Shae a bit less clear cut helps us at least retain some sympathy for him - at this point I'd rather follow Tyrion the hard-done-by, lost his mind end-of-his tether depressed outcast, than follow Tyrion the murderer on the run who feels sorry for himself rather than sorry for the defenceless woman he just murdered in cold blood (whatever the provocation). I think a case can be made that the former is the more complex character and one that viewers will want to invest more in.

Agreed about the whitewashing accusations - 'Saint' Tyrion is at this point is directly responsible for more deaths than almost anyone else in the show. This seems to get forgotten just because he has been kinder to Sansa!

[jaimecersei]

i bet show!Tyrion's ADWD (Season 5 ) arc will just be his season 1 arc again except he'll be depressed.

they'll cut him wanting to rape Cersei, raping that sex slave, and his general asshole-ishness. like there's no way that they'll keep an exchange like this on the show:

“Do you moan when you are being *beep* he asked the bedwarmer.

“If it please m’lord.”

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

[secretmidnightband]

http://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/28ng6y/no_spoilers_some_rockn_rolln_game_of_thrones_fans/

[Woman of War]

Woman of War...

I don't see how the show has made Tyrion less complex. Show Tyrion is a fascinating character even if somewhat different to the books.

In exile he will still be depressed and full of self-loathing - that will remain. The thing is it just isn't very much fun reading about (or watching) a character who has done evil things and feeling sorry for themselves about it. It's their own fault - tough! What's Arya up to please?

Making the murder of Shae a bit less clear cut helps us at least retain some sympathy for him - at this point I'd rather follow Tyrion the hard-done-by, lost his mind end-of-his tether depressed outcast, than follow Tyrion the murderer on the run who feels sorry for himself rather than sorry for the defenceless woman he just murdered in cold blood (whatever the provocation). I think a case can be made that the former is the more complex character and one that viewers will want to invest more in.

Agreed about the whitewashing accusations - 'Saint' Tyrion is at this point is directly responsible for more deaths than almost anyone else in the show. This seems to get forgotten just because he has been kinder to Sansa!

Don't get me wrong, in the show as well Tyrion is by far the most complex, interesting and fascinating character to me, and Dinklage makes him compelling, subtle and complex despite some tones they left out.

For me Tyrion does not need any toning down so I have a moral way out for loving to follow his story.

I mean, I do not mind if Tyrion has committed the deeds he committed or how anyone evaluates his morality since details in morality degrees may not be Martin's topic. But why do you think, only out of interest, that Tyrion is responsible for more deaths than almost anyone else? As battle commander at Blackwater? It was Stannis who decided to attack the city, if his army dies it is the fault of the attacker!

Or as person? Cersei or Joffrey in the show killed Robert's children, not to speak of Tywin's deeds.

So maybe we simply evaluate Tyrion in a different manner, that is your right. Only I see no reason to justify Tyrion's story arc (and myself with it) as "not as evil as you think he is" because I simply do not care if you or anyone interprets him as darker than I do. Meaning I have absolutely no reason to start a fight and to justify myself through "whitewashing" since I am fascinated by his story the way it is and I love his character, I do not want him simplified. I do not need to convince others to share my love of Tyrion as fascinating literary invention AND as character to root for.

So if you think he is the most evil - pffft, so what, go on thinking so, no problem, it won't influence GRRM's writing. And Martin is the one who tells Tyrion's story to the bitter, sweet or bittersweet ending. And I shamelessly admit that I root for a positive ending for my favorite character. (Well, everybody does for their favorite character)

[Daske]

Sorry, I can't seem to use the quote button!

But no, I don't think Tyrion is the most evil character by far, and he is one of the most interesting in both books and show, I just think GRRM lost his way a bit with the character in the recent books. In the show they have a fan favourite in Tyrion and imo they shouldn't break him so badly that he loses our empathy just for the sake of it being closer to the books. They have built a great tv character regardless of him being somewhat different from the books. They should be careful not to throw away that good work. Having him think about raping Cersei for example will be awful (as it was in the books).

Yes, I was thinking of Blackwater. He came up with the plan and gave the order. Yes, it's a battle, but he still caused many hundreds (thousands?) of men to die horrible deaths being burned alive. Probably killed more people by fire at this point than Mel and Danny put together? And killed his ex- and killed his dad of course. This doesn't make him evil necessarily, as we know there are mitigating circumstances to a degree in all those cases, but weighing up some of his nicer acts against that carnage doesn't even come close to making him the saint some make out.

[Bridgeburners]

Sorry, I can't seem to use the quote button!

But no, I don't think Tyrion is the most evil character by far, and he is one of the most interesting in both books and show, I just think GRRM lost his way a bit with the character in the recent books. In the show they have a fan favourite in Tyrion and imo they shouldn't break him so badly that he loses our empathy just for the sake of it being closer to the books. They have built a great tv character regardless of him being somewhat different from the books. They should be careful not to throw away that good work. Having him think about raping Cersei for example will be awful (as it was in the books).

Yes, I was thinking of Blackwater. He came up with the plan and gave the order. Yes, it's a battle, but he still caused many hundreds (thousands?) of men to die horrible deaths being burned alive. Probably killed more people by fire at this point than Mel and Danny put together? And killed his ex- and killed his dad of course. This doesn't make him evil necessarily, as we know there are mitigating circumstances to a degree in all those cases, but weighing up some of his nicer acts against that carnage doesn't even come close to making him the saint some make out.

Remember, before the end of aSoS Tyrion was certainly no angel in the books. After the hill tribes attacked Catelyn and her group while she was taking Tyrion to the Vale, while the singer Marillio was trapped under a few bodies, Tyrion deliberately took the opportunity to break his hand because he was pissed off about Marillio bringing attention towards him at the pub which led to Catelyn capturing him. Then don't forget about him commanding Bronn to get him some "singer stew" because that other singer in KL knew about him and Shae. That should have been enough for people to hate him already.

Tyrion is a likable character in the sense that Tony Soprano, Walter White, or Omar Little are. IDK if you saw the Sopranos, but it's pretty easy to root for Tony... right up until the point where he orders a guy's death or beats up one of his mistresses because she's acting crazy. But then you go back to rooting for him later on, knowing all the while that he's a terrible person. It's because he's a very fascinating character whose arc you want to see keep going, and he has a lot of relatable moments. Yeah, afterwards you would always tell yourself "I don't really like this guy and would want him to be locked up if he was alive in real life", but telling yourself that or rooting that way while watching sort of hurts the experience in a sense. IMO, characters like that are the most interesting type.

Tyrion was vile and completely unjustified in killing Shae, but like many here said, it's understandable. He has faced some heavy persecution and betrayals, and the Shae's betrayal made him snap and pushed him to the edge. I hate to say it, but a lot of other morally grounded people who condemn it might have done the same, in similar circumstances; we don't know because we've never been in a position that heavy. We don't know how much abuse and persecution our psyche can take. Of course I'm not justifying it, you can already see how I feel about him killing Shae just from looking at this thread. But it's similar to how Tony gets pushed to the edge when he beats up his mistress or his son or that poor guy working at Sylvio's bar. Like I said, that type of character, who you root for even though you know you shouldn't, is the most interesting type of character. It's the kind that makes you question your values the most strongly, and the kind that's very controversial to write about. I love that Tyrion is that way in the books, and I'm sad that they turned him into the more boring tortured hero.

Woman of War is right about the Blackwater fire. Stopping an invasion by any means is self defense on a large scale. If anyone was attacked at night in a dark alley, and it was totally unambiguous that the guy wanted to rape/kill/etc, I'd consider nothing off limits (including if you had a lighter and bug-spray can and wanted to get creative). Why disparage Tyrion for finding a way to kill them while they were still on their boats? Would you prefer he be honourable and allow them on shore for a fair chance at fighting the KL soldiers hand-to-hand? That would actually cause more deaths, assuming KL was to win eventually. Or it would open the possibility to Stannis' invasion becoming successful, which would be a whole lot worse (since we know what invasions look like in Westeros).

[Daske]

Remember, before the end of aSoS Tyrion was certainly no angel in the books. After the hill tribes attacked Catelyn and her group while she was taking Tyrion to the Vale, while the singer Marillio was trapped under a few bodies, Tyrion deliberately took the opportunity to break his hand because he was pissed off about Marillio bringing attention towards him at the pub which led to Catelyn capturing him. Then don't forget about him commanding Bronn to get him some "singer stew" because that other singer in KL knew about him and Shae. That should have been enough for people to hate him already.

Tyrion is a likable character in the sense that Tony Soprano, Walter White, or Omar Little are. IDK if you saw the Sopranos, but it's pretty easy to root for Tony... right up until the point where he orders a guy's death or beats up one of his mistresses because she's acting crazy. But then you go back to rooting for him later on, knowing all the while that he's a terrible person. It's because he's a very fascinating character whose arc you want to see keep going, and he has a lot of relatable moments. Yeah, afterwards you would always tell yourself "I don't really like this guy and would want him to be locked up if he was alive in real life", but telling yourself that or rooting that way while watching sort of hurts the experience in a sense. IMO, characters like that are the most interesting type.

Tyrion was vile and completely unjustified in killing Shae, but like many here said, it's understandable. He has faced some heavy persecution and betrayals, and the Shae's betrayal made him snap and pushed him to the edge. I hate to say it, but a lot of other morally grounded people who condemn it might have done the same, in similar circumstances; we don't know because we've never been in a position that heavy. We don't know how much abuse and persecution our psyche can take. Of course I'm not justifying it, you can already see how I feel about him killing Shae just from looking at this thread. But it's similar to how Tony gets pushed to the edge when he beats up his mistress or his son or that poor guy working at Sylvio's bar. Like I said, that type of character, who you root for even though you know you shouldn't, is the most interesting type of character. It's the kind that makes you question your values the most strongly, and the kind that's very controversial to write about. I love that Tyrion is that way in the books, and I'm sad that they turned him into the more boring tortured hero.

Woman of War is right about the Blackwater fire. Stopping an invasion by any means is self defense on a large scale. If anyone was attacked at night in a dark alley, and it was totally unambiguous that the guy wanted to rape/kill/etc, I'd consider nothing off limits (including if you had a lighter and bug-spray can and wanted to get creative). Why disparage Tyrion for finding a way to kill them while they were still on their boats? Would you prefer he be honourable and allow them on shore for a fair chance at fighting the KL soldiers hand-to-hand? That would actually cause more deaths, assuming KL was to win eventually. Or it would open the possibility to Stannis' invasion becoming successful, which would be a whole lot worse (since we know what invasions look like in Westeros).

Yeah, that is similar to how I feel about Walter and Tony Soprano (and most of the others of his crew) and is one of the fun aspects of a good show..

I just think that with Tyrion they now have a full-grown character who is very popular as he is, and he isn't perfect by a long way. Why break that valuable (rare!) bond with the audience? They don't need to make him evil or nasty to make him interesting.

If you are a relatively decent person then killing anyone in self-defence however justified is likely going to screw you up to a degree, at least for a time. Killing hundreds in such a horrible and painful way has got to be a major head f**k if you have any kind of empathy for other human beings, which we know Tyrion does to a point. So, in some ways I don't see this as contradictory to the 'grey-ness' of the character. Add to that his recent personal murders we know he is going to end up in a very dark place anyway. But still retains some integrity (the same sort of integrity that many were annoyed to see Jaime has having lost in the escape and Sept scenes).

I just prefer it if he's in that dark place but I'm still empathise with him. I don't think I was actually rooting for Tony Soprano or Al Swearingen, although very interested in their characters because they were self-serving to the point of no redemption. But I was for Omar because he was still a decent human being underneath. In that vein, I like the fact there is a Lannister we can root for (I realise that is a personal choice, but I think one that the wider audience generally would prefer). The way I see it is there's more than one road to Rome, and Tyrion may have been a great character if they had made him 'darker', but they have still created a great character without doing that, so it's all good.

[David Selig]

I'm curious, the people who do not believe it was okay for Tyrion to murder Shae, do they feel the same way about Tywin? Not trolling here, just genuinely curious.

Personally I feel murdering Tywin was the best thing Tyrion ever did by far, some monsters need to be put down as a service to humanity, and the law couldn't touch Tywin, so Tyrion did what was necessary and praiseworthy in my book.

The way I see it is there's more than one road to Rome, and Tyrion may have been a great character if they had made him 'darker', but they have still created a great character without doing that, so it's all good.

The way I see it is that they turned a very interesting character into someone who bores me to tears 80% of the time, and that is a real shame.

[HairGrowsBack]

The way I see it is that they turned a very interesting character into someone who bores me to tears 80% of the time, and that is a real shame.

Definitely. Show Tyrion bores the hell out of me. All they've made him is a generic witty antihero type with a heart of gold, which is just something we've seen far too much.

I can't say I like Book Tyrion personality-wise, but there's no denying he is a fascinating character ; yet somehow the show just decides to "strangle the golden goose", so to speak.

[storm.131]

I'm disappointed. All they had to do was to copy the scene from the books, but they simply had to alter it in a way to make Tyrion look a little better... I also don't like the fact that Tysha wasn't mentioned at all and that Jaime didn't reveal the truth, as it was an important event both for Tyrion and Jaime.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that the script writers' decision to omit Jamie telling Tyrion the truth about Tysha was a mistake. Jamie's confession made those scenes in the books so much more powerful, especially Tyrion and Tywin's final conversation.

However, for me the opposite was true of the fact that Shae and Tyrion didn't say anything to each other in the show version. It was as if she realised that there was no defence for the way she betrayed him, so she didn't even attempt to, but like any person determined to survive at any cost, she grabbed the knife. Brilliantly filmed scene.

[Woman of War]

If we had never met book Tyrion we all would be fascinated by HBO Tyrion without compunction.

We know, as readers, that his story is even more complex, that he did worse things and that more horrible things were done to him than HBO presents us, apart from the small gems we did not hear about, like the Blackwater chain or the Green Fork battle. How could they have transferred the full horror of what was done to Tysha without giving the audience access to Tyrion's mind?

And Florina wrote, in that thread or elsewhere, that it was a good move to replace Tysha by a living, breathing and very much present character, Shae. So the audience can perceive Tyrion's despair and madness in a far more direct way.

I miss Tysa's story not for the sake of the story itself but for the falling apart with Jaime and Tyrion's complete emotional desolation following it.

And of course some plot turns are maybe closed that way, spoilers to book readers.

I just prefer it if he's in that dark place but I'm still empathise with him. I don't think I was actually rooting for Tony Soprano or Al Swearingen, although very interested in their characters because they were self-serving to the point of no redemption. But I was for Omar because he was still a decent human being underneath. In that vein, I like the fact there is a Lannister we can root for (I realise that is a personal choice, but I think one that the wider audience generally would prefer). The way I see it is there's more than one road to Rome, and Tyrion may have been a great character if they had made him 'darker', but they have still created a great character without doing that, so it's all good.

I start seeing it that way. And I think HBO Tyrion is also in part a creation by the actor. As every good actor will turn a character into his own. Dinklage has marked Tyrion, just like Arya now in part is Maisie Williams or Brienne got a new quality by Christie. These actors, probably others as well, have not only enriched but also transformed their character, added something unique. I myself am a book person but I very much enjoy that "something" , hard to grasp, a smell, a spice.

Cate Blanchett is a very specific Galadriel and yet she is THE one Galadriel for me now. Williams is Arya, Dinklage is Tyrion, Christie is Brienne and Dance is Tywin.

[Bridgeburners]

I just prefer it if he's in that dark place but I'm still empathise with him. I don't think I was actually rooting for Tony Soprano or Al Swearingen, although very interested in their characters because they were self-serving to the point of no redemption. But I was for Omar because he was still a decent human being underneath. In that vein, I like the fact there is a Lannister we can root for (I realise that is a personal choice, but I think one that the wider audience generally would prefer). The way I see it is there's more than one road to Rome, and Tyrion may have been a great character if they had made him 'darker', but they have still created a great character without doing that, so it's all good.

Why root for Omar and not Tony? They both used the same rationalizations - that they only target people in 'the game' and people who got involved with them did it of their own choosing (Tony used that once in a therapy session.) Omar points his guns at children who have been forced into the drug trade because they basically have no other option, threatening them with death (and in many cases shooting them) unless they give up their stash, an action which would put their life in jeopardy with their boss. Plus he has murders on his hands. He was a 'decent human being' underneath in the same vein as Tony in that they both had their own 'values', but in their minds, the line to cross was conveniently in front of that point by which they made their livelihoods. (And Sweringen is kinda weird... I feel like, for a while, the writers forgot that he was a bad person, and then late in season 3 they said "oh shit, we forgot... quick, make him do something evil!" Maybe I have to watch that show again.)

I think you mean "sympathize", not "empathize". Ideally you should be able to empathize with anyone, including the worst of the worst. Like, I don't sympathize with Tyrion killing Shae, but I do attempt to empathize; I understand how his mental state at the time could have driven him to that action.

I guess we just have different tastes, then. I find the "bad protagonist" type to be one of the most fascinating types of characters. The tortured hero type, as HairGrowsBack says, is substantially more boring IMO. Sure it would be entertaining to watch how tortured Tyrion is with his past deeds, but there's no real challenging moral questions being brought up by his character. In aSoIaF, Tyrion brings out some of the most challenging questions in that regard, because we know he's a bad person, yet he's still sympathetic. He's not like those unambiguously rotten characters like Gregor, Ramsay, or pre-severed Jamie.

If we had never met book Tyrion we all would be fascinated by HBO Tyrion without compunction.

We know, as readers, that his story is even more complex, that he did worse things and that more horrible things were done to him than HBO presents us, apart from the small gems we did not hear about, like the Blackwater chain or the Green Fork battle. How could they have transferred the full horror of what was done to Tysha without giving the audience access to Tyrion's mind?

I actually liked that they removed his involvement from Green Fork. It's been brought up on the aSoIaF forums before that one of the most ridiculous things in the series is Tyrion's prowess in battle. During the Vale raid, he manages to cut down several riders on horses with his axe. In Green Fork he massacres his way through like a war lord. Then his tumbling displays in front of Jon were, I think, something GRRM wrote before he understood the physical limitations of dwarfs. At least I give the show props for their more realistic physical portrayal of Tyrion.

[HairGrowsBack]

Why root for Omar and not Tony? They both used the same rationalizations - that they only target people in 'the game' and people who got involved with them did it of their own choosing (Tony used that once in a therapy session.) Omar points his guns at children who have been forced into the drug trade because they basically have no other option, threatening them with death (and in many cases shooting them) unless they give up their stash, an action which would put their life in jeopardy with their boss. Plus he has murders on his hands. He was a 'decent human being' underneath in the same vein as Tony in that they both had their own 'values', but in their minds, the line to cross was conveniently in front of that point by which they made their livelihoods. (And Sweringen is kinda weird... I feel like, for a while, the writers forgot that he was a bad person, and then late in season 3 they said "oh shit, we forgot... quick, make him do something evil!" Maybe I have to watch that show again.)

I think you mean "sympathize", not "empathize". Ideally you should be able to empathize with anyone, including the worst of the worst. Like, I don't sympathize with Tyrion killing Shae, but I do attempt to empathize; I understand how his mental state at the time could have driven him to that action.

I guess we just have different tastes, then. I find the "bad protagonist" type to be one of the most fascinating types of characters. The tortured hero type, as HairGrowsBack says, is substantially more boring IMO. Sure it would be entertaining to watch how tortured Tyrion is with his past deeds, but there's no real challenging moral questions being brought up by his character. In aSoIaF, Tyrion brings out some of the most challenging questions in that regard, because we know he's a bad person, yet he's still sympathetic. He's not like those unambiguously rotten characters like Gregor, Ramsay, or pre-severed Jamie.

I actually liked that they removed his involvement from Green Fork. It's been brought up on the aSoIaF forums before that one of the most ridiculous things in the series is Tyrion's prowess in battle. During the Vale raid, he manages to cut down several riders on horses with his axe. In Green Fork he massacres his way through like a war lord. Then his tumbling displays in front of Jon were, I think, something GRRM wrote before he understood the physical limitations of dwarfs. At least I give the show props for their more realistic physical portrayal of Tyrion.

Agree with everything except BiB ; it's a nitpick, but I think it's very inaccurate to place two-handed Jaime among the likes of Gregor or Ramsay. Jaime was (and sometims still is) a dick, but he was never cruel or sadistic. He wanted to save Rhaella when no one lifted their littlefinger, chased after Tysha's (attempted)rapists,... if anything, I believe Tyrion can be much meaner and crueler than Jaime.

[Seneti]

In that vein, I like the fact there is a Lannister we can root for (I realise that is a personal choice, but I think one that the wider audience generally would prefer). The way I see it is there's more than one road to Rome, and Tyrion may have been a great character if they had made him 'darker', but they have still created a great character without doing that, so it's all good.

Agreed. Show Tyrion may not be as great a character as book Tyrion, but he still is a great character and it's nice to see at least one main member of the Lannister family who is not a complete a**, because that's how families usually work - even if almost everyone is a d***, there will always be someone who is at least somewhat nice. Likewise, every nice family has its black sheep.

If we had never met book Tyrion we all would be fascinated by HBO Tyrion without compunction.

Agreed. I think that expectation plays a great part in the disappointment that many readers feel, which is why I can only encourage people to watch every episode twice: once with your "book radar" on and once more a while later with your book radar off.

I actually liked that they removed his involvement from Green Fork. It's been brought up on the aSoIaF forums before that one of the most ridiculous things in the series is Tyrion's prowess in battle. During the Vale raid, he manages to cut down several riders on horses with his axe. In Green Fork he massacres his way through like a war lord. Then his tumbling displays in front of Jon were, I think, something GRRM wrote before he understood the physical limitations of dwarfs. At least I give the show props for their more realistic physical portrayal of Tyrion.

Absolutely. I know this is off-topic, but GRRM's lack of understanding of physical limitations (Tyrion) and mental/emotional limitations (Bran) is one of the view things I don't like about ASOIAF.