How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[sj4iy]

The TV audience will probably love it and think that Tywin and Shae deserve it.

And they do.

[Annara Snow]

The TV audience will probably love it and think that Tywin and Shae deserve it.

And they do.

One of them does.

[Woman of War]

I am disappointed of the concept of Shae in the books, and that from me who is one of those simple minded hopeless book and show apologists who uncritically admire artistic achievements

In the books Shae has from the beginning been shaped as cardboard stereotype of a whore. Already her name is only one letter away from "She" as some kind of female moral archetype. Shae was never supposed to have an identity, a story of her own, she has always been there to illuminate Tyrion's deep personal issues and delusions with his desire to be loved and respected. So she was morally one dimensional in the books. As reaction posters try to invent all evils from Tyrion's side against her like "he stole from her" and "he mistreated her" in order to give her at least some motivation, some story, some identity. This is imo more a sign of justified frustration with Martin's writing than a correct interpretation of what is in the books. There is nothing in the books. Nothing about Shae to give her any depth and this is exactly what makes me angry. I also have tried to write quasi-fanfic in these forums to explain and understand Shae's despicable behaviour at the trial......abused child who never learned empathy.....lower class girl who had to look after herself.... Yaddayadda....because I did not want to see the sex worker and woman demeaned.

But this was the result of a sad omission from Martin's side. Fleshing out Shae may have appeared an unnecessary filler since all was about Tyrion but it would not have been. Tyrion's characterization suffers from leaving Shae so very pale, a side effect the author underestimated imo. I write this as huge fan of book Tyrion as well as show Tyrion.

And the show tried to correct that with good reason, though maybe they have overdone it. Making her so dedicated in protecting Sansa made her testimony difficult to understand, but Sansa had to be seriously implicated by Shae or by whomever, a hunted criminal totally dependent of Baelish, seen as capable of murdering again, a victim of negative propaganda.

Rant over

I am a huge fan of the character of Tyrion, both books and show and yet I cringe when I read that Shae "deserved it", even if her behavior was despicable.

[HairGrowsBack]

^imo Shae is one-dimensional in the books because that's how Tyrion sees her, and we only know her through his POV. Tyrion's Relationship to Shae, while complex, is mostly about him and his self-esteem.

[The Mountain That Posts]

^imo Shae is one-dimensional in the books because that's how Tyrion sees her, and we only know her through his POV. Tyrion's Relationship to Shae, while complex, is mostly about him and his self-esteem.

Boom, how I intepretted it as well.

[WildlingButcher]

They will love it that Tyrion kills the false snake Shae

The death of Tywin will be harder to take for the watcher, Tywin was the best leader Westeros ever had.

strong, hard, brilliant, a born leader

[Tolsimir]

^imo Shae is one-dimensional in the books because that's how Tyrion sees her, and we only know her through his POV. Tyrion's Relationship to Shae, while complex, is mostly about him and his self-esteem.

I don't know. I've always felt the opposite. In the books the little character Shae has we see through Tyrion, who is attributing to her qualities she doesn't have. In reality she IS this one-dimensional stereotypical whore.

[HairGrowsBack]

I don't know. I've always felt the opposite. In the books the little character Shae has we see through Tyrion, who is attributing to her qualities she doesn't have. In reality she IS this one-dimensional stereotypical whore.

We don't know that. We never have access to her thoughts, or see her interact with anyone but Tyrion ; we know nothing about her past or her family. She is what Tyrion wants her to be, she prétends (more or less) all the time, so we never get to know" the real her".

[kacunnin]

From what I hear (from unsullied friends and family members), they will be THRILLED when Tyrion kills Shae. They have no clue he WILL kill her, but they hate her. They hated her even when Tyrion was dumping her (telling her he never loved her, could never love a whore, could never have children with a whore, etc.).

But I (as a reader and a watcher) don't believe Shae deserves to die. In the book, it was pretty clear she never really loved Tyrion, but rather his position and money. She begged for jewelry and clothing, and whined when he wouldn't let her live in a fancy apartment. In the show, it's quite clear she DID love Tyrion. They show inserted numreous scenes to make that clear, scenes that were not present in the book (i.e. the scene, after Blackwater, where Shae comes to an injured Tyrion and suggests they just run away together, the scene where she throws away Varys's diamonds and his offer of a fine life overseas, and her very obvious heart-felt agony when Tyrion cruelly dumped her). She loved him.

And if Shae loved him, there are only two reasons for her betraying him at the trial -- either she was forced at threat of torture/death, or she was so devastated and hurt by what he did to her. Either way, she doesn't deserve to be murdered. And either way, show-Tyrion brought it all upon himself.

So I think the majority of TV watchers will cheer when Tyrion kills Shae. But I won't. And I do hope the show at least lets us see how much these two murders impact Tyrion's conscience and character.

[Tolsimir]

We don't know that. We never have access to her thoughts, or see her interact with anyone but Tyrion ; we know nothing about her past or her family. She is what Tyrion wants her to be, she prétends (more or less) all the time, so we never get to know" the real her".

I thought we saw the real her at the trial.

[HairGrowsBack]

I thought we saw the real her at the trial.

I'd disagree. We saw what Tywin/Cersei had staged. The vibe I get from Shae is that of a young woman with no acquaintance nor wealth trying to survive, and who's become emotionally indifferent due to the kind of harsh life she's been leading.

It's open to interpretation obviously, but I never got why so many people thought her evil or cruel to be honest.

[HairGrowsBack]

From what I hear (from unsullied friends and family members), they will be THRILLED when Tyrion kills Shae. They have no clue he WILL kill her, but they hate her. They hated her even when Tyrion was dumping her (telling her he never loved her, could never love a whore, could never have children with a whore, etc.).

So I think the majority of TV watchers will cheer when Tyrion kills Shae. But I won't. And I do hope the show at least lets us see how much these two murders impact Tyrion's conscience and character.

And I find this disturbing on so many levels.

It's like the What the Flick review of 4x04 (I think), in which one of the reviewers, who is supposed to be an educated grown man, stated it didn't matter Jaime had raped Cersei because basically "she's an evil bitch and deserved it"

[Bridgeburners]

From what I hear (from unsullied friends and family members), they will be THRILLED when Tyrion kills Shae. They have no clue he WILL kill her, but they hate her. They hated her even when Tyrion was dumping her (telling her he never loved her, could never love a whore, could never have children with a whore, etc.).

And if Shae loved him, there are only two reasons for her betraying him at the trial -- either she was forced at threat of torture/death, or she was so devastated and hurt by what he did to her. Either way, she doesn't deserve to be murdered. And either way, show-Tyrion brought it all upon himself.

So I think the majority of TV watchers will cheer when Tyrion kills Shae. But I won't. And I do hope the show at least lets us see how much these two murders impact Tyrion's conscience and character.

I don't see why them hating her will suddenly make them sympathize with Tyrion killing her. One does not simply follow from the other. In Breaking Bad there was this one woman that I basically couldn't stand at all and despised, but I still understood that when a certain character let her die (not even physically kill her as in Tyrion's case), that character was basically a monster for doing that. I hope your friends can see beyond their personal feelings of Shae and understand that that does not give anyone a right to kill her.

[kacunnin]

And I find this disturbing on so many levels.

It's like the What the Flick review of 4x04 (I think), in which one of the reviewers, who is supposed to be an educated grown man, stated it didn't matter Jaime had raped Cersei because basically "she's an evil bitch and deserved it"

But I think the difference here is that the unsullied TV viewers love Tyrion so much (he's definitely the hero character for them) that they dispise anyone who acts against him (for whatever reasons). They saw Shae as a grasping, clinging woman who had no future with him, and for that reason she had no standing. She wasn't important. She was just for the sex scenes. And when she betrayed Tyrion (even after what he did to her), she was just a bitch. And bitches deserve to die.

They deserve to be raped, too, as I hear it. That's why the "Jaime raped Cersei" thing didn't both most of the TV viewers. They love Jaime, too (although what he did to Bran in that first episode gets in the way of that . . . just a little).

It's disappointing, because what I like the most about these characters is how many shades of gray they have. The TV show has smoothed over many ofthe rough edges, giving us too many black-and-white heroes and villains.

[kacunnin]

I don't see why them hating her will suddenly make them sympathize with Tyrion killing her. One does not simply follow from the other. In Breaking Bad there was this one woman that I basically couldn't stand at all and despised, but I still understood that when a certain character let her die (not even physically kill her as in Tyrion's case), that character was basically a monster for doing that. I hope your friends can see beyond their personal feelings of Shae and understand that that does not give anyone a right to kill her.

I hope so, too. But we'll see. They just love Tyrion so much that they can't imagine him doing anything that would change how they feel about him (short of killing Dany's dragons, which they also love).

I read the books this past spring, in anticipation of the fourth TV season, and when I got to the part where Tyrion killed Shae I was totally shocked. And I said to myself, "no way can this happen on the show." But now I think it will happen.

I don't think book-Shae deserved to die, either (she was just a working girl, after all, doing what working girls have to do to get by). But she's such a minor character in the book that it probably doesn't have that same impact for those who read it before the TV show (where Shae is a much, much more developed character).

It's funny, though, how readily everyone accepted what Bronn did (pretty much dumping Tyrion in his moment of need for a cushy marriage arranged by Cersei), but can't deal with Shae's betrayal.

[themengsk176]

Tyrion killing Shae is the perfect example of a 'crime of passion', and the defense of said acts is as much bullshit in real life as it is in this fantasy setting.

Murder is wrong, regardless of how much you sympathize with the circumstances. My skin crawls whenever I read about how people don't care or flat out support her brutal death.

That said, I do believe he will do it on the show if for no other reason than to cause controversy. I mean, if Talisa (and Robb's unborn baby and potential heir) was killed in the most awful way imaginable, it should be pretty obvious what Shae's fate will be.

[Ghost of Snow]

I don't think that the tv audience will have any problem to accept Tyrion's actions. The book fandom also accepted Tyrion's action and still consider him one of their favourite characters. I don't see why the show audience will act any differently. Especially now that they have made Shae's betrayal more personal (since they did have feelings for each other in the tv series).

[HairGrowsBack]

But I think the difference here is that the unsullied TV viewers love Tyrion so much (he's definitely the hero character for them) that they dispise anyone who acts against him (for whatever reasons). They saw Shae as a grasping, clinging woman who had no future with him, and for that reason she had no standing. She wasn't important. She was just for the sex scenes. And when she betrayed Tyrion (even after what he did to her), she was just a bitch. And bitches deserve to die.

They deserve to be raped, too, as I hear it. That's why the "Jaime raped Cersei" thing didn't both most of the TV viewers. They love Jaime, too (although what he did to Bran in that first episode gets in the way of that . . . just a little).

It's disappointing, because what I like the most about these characters is how many shades of gray they have. The TV show has smoothed over many ofthe rough edges, giving us too many black-and-white heroes and villains.

Yes it's definitely a mix of their reluctance to have grey characters (especially in Saint Tyrion's case), and let's just say it , misogyny from a part of the audience. And it's freaking depressing.

[kacunnin]

Tyrion killing Shae is the perfect example of a 'crime of passion', and the defense of said acts is as much bullshit in real life as it is in this fantasy setting.

Murder is wrong, regardless of how much you sympathize with the circumstances. My skin crawls whenever I read about how people don't care or flat out support her brutal death.

That said, I do believe he will do it on the show if for no other reason than to cause controversy. I mean, if Talisa (and Robb's unborn baby and potential heir) was killed in the most awful way imaginable, it should be pretty obvious what Shae's fate will be.

But for Tyrion's act to be a "crime of passion," something has to happen to make him hate her that much. He didn't seem to hate her during his conversation with Jaime before the trial by combat -- it was more resignation and sadness, maybe bitterness. The set-up will be him finding her in Tywin's bed (which in itself seems absurdly implausible, even in the book) -- but would he really believe that Shae never loved him, that she willingly gave herself to Tywin? He'd have to believe that to actually KILL her. And all along he has believed she loved him (thus his cruel lashing out at her to get her to leave him, for her own safety of course). I'm talking about the TV show here, not the book -- in the book, he second-guesses her feelings for him all along (because of Tysha).

We'll see how they do the scene, but either way, I agree -- murder is not a reasonable response, even for personal betrayal. Women betray their lovers every day (and vice versa, of course); it's not grounds for murder.

[Izaac]

It think it will follow the books, and that one way they could make it work quite well is by inserting some of the mockery and bitchness of Shae into the scene before he kills her.

If he over hears her mocking 'Her Giant', then his rage will be more justified and he won't be completely unsympthisable.

I am just sad they won't have the where do whores go line... I'm not sure how they will create the feeling of betrayal between Jaime and Tyrion without their backstory present.