How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Woman of War]

Dp

[Woman of War]

Sansa thinking of herself as a woman grown does not mean she really is. Bran thinks of himself a 'almost a man grown' at 7. But I don't think she is a child, either. Teenagers are in that confusing in between state, where it's hard to say when exactly they start being old enough to be seen as adult - the different laws in different countries today are a testament to that. USA laws, for instance, assume that you can't be allowed to drink alcohol before 21, but that you can be tried for a crime as an adult at 14. Teenagers usually want to see themselves as older and hate being treated as children, but a teenager seeing themselves as a mature adult does not mean that they objectively are.

Agree.

And this is the heartbreaking tragedy in the wedding night scene when it comes to Sansa: She has been brainwashed by her upbringing to see it as her duty to have sex with her husband, to emulate the good wife, to behave like an adult, to undress and to open her legs for him. She is ashamed of not knowing how to be perfect. Sansa would see herself as failure if she were not sufficiently good at being wife. She denies herself the right of any agency, being her own worst enemy here but fortunately her trembling body betrays her and makes her dislike clear to Tyrion. No, she is no adult but this wedding night scene is a condensed example of how she sees herself: she takes her pride from emulating the courteous adult lady, denying herself any agency that does not fit into that pattern

Nevertheless, a 13-year old having sex with someone they want to is, no doubt, better than a 13-year old being coerced into sex. That much is, I believe, unquestionable. The importance of sexual agency is something that is extremely important in Sansa's arc, since the society she lives in denies girls/women the a choice and agency. But I see her as still developing emotionally and sexually, and I don't think it's a good idea for her to be having sex with anyone yet.

Why is there so much emphasis on Sansa's sexual agency? Her agency has been taken from her in many ways and her desire should not only concentrate on sexual agency, she has a deplorable lack of any choices. And she would imo have a lot of small steps and cunning tricks open to her to gain agency by her own efforts. Her sexual agency is only seen as problem because she herself does not realize the lack of any other agency. She does not work at getting active and free, she still waits until "agency" is served to her. Sorry but this is my main problem with Sansa as literary character.

I really doubt that there's anyone who thinks that Sandor putting a knife at her throat was a "legitimate expression of love" - I certainly haven't seen anyone say anything like that, so this seems like a Straw Man argument. I saw it as an expression of how emotionally messed up and unstable Sandor was, and what a bad case of PTSD he was having, and I think that the majority of people see it the same way. Now, my guess based on the previous discussions is that the real disagreement lies in the following: 1) you tend to insist that he came to her room in order to rape her, which there is no evidence for in the books, as I and a few others have pointed out, and that I really don't believe that was ever the case; and 2) not everyone shares the opinion that the act of putting the knife to her throat is the one defining characteristic of their dynamic, or that it's an unforgivable act that means that Sansa should never think kindly of Sandor again.

But I really haven't seen many people express the belief that Sansa and Sandor will live happily ever after. In fact, my impression is that the majority of people who enjoy this storyline (which I do) expect some kind of important interaction to happen between them in the future books, since it's been set up by GRRM in the books; that something explicitly romantic/erotic may very well happen in a few years, when she is grown up, and initiated by her (I don't even believe Sandor would be likely to ever initiate a romantic relationship between them, in fact I believe that he doesn't even see it as a realistic possibility and would be completely stunned to learn Sansa could want him); but the vast majority of people seem to expect it to end tragically. I would be really surprised if Sandor survived the end of the story, and I think most people have the same expectations; on the other hand, I think Sansa will be among those to survive. If I were to place a bet, he will end up being her dead great first love, but she will have other relationships in her future life; however, unlike Dany or Jon, who had their tragic first loves happen to them in book 1/book 3, there will probably be no time to show Sansa's future relationships or build up any other meaningful love interests, and I don't think GRRM is intending to, so Sansa's future love life will remain outside of the scope of the novels, except perhaps retold in some sort of flashforward-type epilogue.

Ok, ok, we disagree on the abusive character of Sandor vs Sansa and need not rehash it over again. But I can follow your story predictions.

i think as well that there it is very possible that Sandor still has to play an important role in Sansa's story, it is very much within Martin's plot logic, just as Sansa and Tyrion coming together would be within Martin's plot logic. This does mean that any of it has to happen, maybe even both will happen or none of them. I am sure that Martin will write it in a way so that I will finally like it. And I have no reason to deny the "creepy" and at the same time touching fatal attraction Sandor feels for Sansa while the other way round is more a rite of passage to me.

I admit freely I would hate Tyrion dying but I would hope for a badass death if it must happen and I fear if Sandor ever shows up again he is doomed, he would only survive in a moderately happy ending on the Quiet Isle.

As to the appeal of "SanSan", the appeal is that it is a very well-developed, interesting and complex relationship with actual character chemistry in the books - which cannot be said of some of the more conventional and explicit romances - which was very important for the development of both characters. It certainly did a lot to make Sansa a deeper and more intriguing character, and it goes without saying that it does to same with the Hound. When I was reading the first book, that scene at the Trident where she goes from being afraid of him to being afraid for him, and starts comforting him, was the moment when I thought there was more to this girl than meets the eye, that she's not really the shallow, vapid character that many still apparently think she is.

Their relationship in the first two books, while they're actually around each other, is strange and ambiguous, walking the tight line between touching and uncomfortable ("creepy" as it's so popular to say) due to the ambiguous romantic undertones, but never explicitly romantic/erotic, which is why I see no reason for any outrage. It's only explicitly so in Sansa's fake memories/fantasies.

I try to understand what you see here. I can rationally force myself to follow here but It simply does not haunt me emotionally, it is certainly not the most touching storyline of the books, only a nicely hinted at side story to me. There are characters, events, relationships that are so much more heartbreaking, cruel, twisted or beautiful than this one. The center of the books is elsewhere imo, sorry. But I can try to grasp what you may see here.

.....

Tyrion/Tysha is incredibly tragic, and I believe it will remain tragic. I would love for them to meet again, but I can only see a sad, emotional scene that underscores that their relationship died many years ago. I don't know whether Tysha will blame Tyrion, but even if she does not, he is forever tied to the horrible trauma she suffered. You can't come back from that, and I think this is how Tywin made sure that their relationship was destroyed, when he made Tyrion rape her last. There is a theory that Sailor's Wife is Tysha, and that "her love is dead" refers to the fact that Tyrion, angry and bitter and cynical, is not the same happy, sweet Tyrion that she loved. I'd like that theory to be true, especially since it could mean that Tyrion has a teenage prostitute daughter who could become the heir of CR, especially with the way the Lannisters have been dying one by one. Just imagine Tywin rolling in his grave. :D

Agreed, Lanna as heir would be a nice twist. Only I have trouble to overcome my petty sense of logic: how would anyone ever know that the child, given the fifty rapists, is Tyrion's? And how could a thirteen year old ever bring a pregnancy to term after so much violence in in these medical conditions? Nitpicking, Martin is not the one splitting hair over genetics and gynecology.

But from a meta level both would make for a great arc: Tyrion meeting Tysha and coming to terms with her though Martin would have to invest all his skills as writer to make a reunion believable.

And Tysha forever staying Tyrion's holy grail, the futile quest where learning on the road is paramount for the character concerned. Tysha will never be found and may or may not be confirmed dead in the end. No satisfying closure but a weight on Tyrion's soul forever to make him humble.

As for Jaime/Cersei, I see their relationship as doomed, but not because of the incest, but because they've grown apart so much, and because they were never as similar as they wanted to believe (since GRRM portrays their relationship as driven by narcissism); their priorities and wishes have become too different for any further relationship to be possible. Personally, I don't have a problem with consenting adults choosing to have a relationship, even if they're siblings (and the fact there is no age difference makes it less problematic, as the incest was not a case of sexual abuse); I tend to agree with Jaime that he only should be really ashamed of what he has done to conceal it, i.e. that the real problem were the crimes they committed while trying to conceal the incest.

Agree

I see Jaime/Cersei as genuine love story of its own right in the books. But it has ended now and will go into a different stage.

Holy Santa, this got off topic, sorry

[Annara Snow]

Agree.

And this is the heartbreaking tragedy in the wedding night scene when it comes to Sansa: She has been brainwashed by her upbringing to see it as her duty to have sex with her husband, to emulate the good wife, to behave like an adult, to undress and to open her legs for him. She is ashamed of not knowing how to be perfect. Sansa would see herself as failure if she were not sufficiently good at being wife. She denies herself the right of any agency, being her own worst enemy here but fortunately her trembling body betrays her and makes her dislike clear to Tyrion. No, she is no adult but this wedding night scene is a condensed example of how she sees herself: she takes her pride from emulating the courteous adult lady, denying herself any agency that does not fit into that pattern

Why is there so much emphasis on Sansa's sexual agency? Her agency has been taken from her in many ways and her desire should not only concentrate on sexual agency, she has a deplorable lack of any choices. And she would imo have a lot of small steps and cunning tricks open to her to gain agency by her own efforts. Her sexual agency is only seen as problem because she herself does not realize the lack of any other agency. She does not work at getting active and free, she still waits until "agency" is served to her. Sorry but this is my main problem with Sansa as literary character.

The emphasis on sexual agency is because GRRM put it there, by making her storyline about Sansa being subjected to a series of forced betrothals, forced marriages, attempted rapes, rape threats, sexual harassment and molestation, and making it a story about a girl who is, by nature of her gender and birth, seen primarily as an object for political games in which her own body is, at best, a sex object, or a means to fulfill someone's fantasy, when it's not just a means to gain lands and claims, with little regard to her as a person; this way he is subverting the myths of princesses' charmed lives and showing how little freedom women had in a patriarchal medieval society, even those from higher classes. The right to choose not to be raped is a fundamental one, and even that is being denied to her and women like her.

And I really disagree that Sansa "denies herself any right to agency". The others are doing that to her. Girls in her society don't have the freedom to choose who they marry and who they have sex with. Usually that choice is their father's or guardian's - and the only freedom they may get depends on the will of their father or guardian. In Sansa's situation, she's left with even less freedom, since she's a hostage. She shows that she doesn't want the marriage, and everyone knows that, but she's threatened and coerced by Cersei and the Kingsguard members. She knows that she can either say the vows, or be tortured, beaten and probably killed if she refuses. There's nothing she could do to stop Tyrion from raping her if he wanted to - she could resist him physically, but she couldn't resist the whole of the court and all the Lannister men. There doesn't need to literally be a man standing by her side with a sword over her head for the wedding and bedding to not be "at swordpoint". All she could do is show unambiguously that she does not want to "do her duty" with Tyrion, and tell him she may never want to - which in itself took a lot of courage and strength for a girl living in that kind of society, in that kind of situation, with that kind of upbringing.

i think as well that there it is very possible that Sandor still has to play an important role in Sansa's story, it is very much within Martin's plot logic, just as Sansa and Tyrion coming together would be within Martin's plot logic.

I really don't see how Sansa and Tyrion coming together in any romantic/sexual/marriage sense would be within Martin's plot logic, or within the logic of characterization of those two and their dynamic.

[Le Cygne]

Came across more Tyrion and Tysha in the last book, this is definitely building up to something, it's remarkable how often he brings her up in the latest book, over a dozen times:

He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms.

...

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father’s guardsmen rape her.

...

M’lord would prefer his wife. M’lord would prefer a girl named Tysha.

...

Tyrion thought of Tysha. He glanced out at the fields where once the gods had walked.

...

He remembered the first time with Tysha as well. She did not know how, no more than I did. We kept bumping our noses, but when I touched her tongue with mine she trembled.

...

Not mine. I carry mine own sorrows with me, everywhere I go. He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I’ll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? I want to go back to our cottage, to the way it was when we were man and wife.

...

His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife.

...

“Wherever whores go,” he said. And where is that? Tyrion wanted to ask him. Where did Tysha go, Father?

...

Selhorys may be where whores go. Tysha might be in there even now, with tears tattooed upon her cheek.

...

There was only one such in the house, and she was not Tysha... “Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?” he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. “Do you know where whores go?”

...

He wondered how much his father had hurt when the quarrel punched through his groin, what Shae had felt as he twisted the chain around her lying throat, what Tysha had been feeling as they raped her.

...

Looking for his silver queen. Looking for Daenerys, willing the ship to sail faster. Well, I might do the same if Tysha waited in Meereen.

...

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?

...

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

[Woman of War]

Came across more Tyrion and Tysha in the last book, this is definitely building up to something, it's remarkable how often he brings her up in the latest book, over a dozen times:

To calm your steam :), it's christmas after all:

I would really like to see a satisfying reunion of Tyrion and Tysha, even a romantic one.

Only this is so hard to imagine. They must be and they are totally different personalities by now. If Tysha has fought herself through life until now despite the past horror she will be a really strong person and Tyrion for sure is not the sweet innocent boy he was. She may forgive the child he was back then but the magic would probably be gone, maybe from both sides.

So Martin can hardly install a common story with "how nice to see ou again, kiss and happily ever after" really no, thoroughly unbelievable. If the author intends to build any kind of relationship he would have to make the characters start from scratch, like a new relationship, two very much adult persons. As much as I would love to see Tyrion as my fvorite character in a relationship not with a dependent young girl but with a strong independent adult woman - but with Tysha this building up would take a lot of pages or screen time. There may though be another great female character somewhere, who knows. And the Tysha ending is too neat (have we lost our optimism through Martin?) Tysha may stay the burden on Tyrion's soul forever, to teach him humility. An always present ghost in many protagonists' lives like Lyanna, Rhaegar and Elia.

And I agree with you that at the present stage of the story Tyrion would gladly exchange Sansa for Tysha or some other interesting woman. Only there are two more books to come and we have no idea what will happen, you are not cleverer here than I am.

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew

The wife he hardly knew can just as well apply on Sansa as on Tysha, though each of us can find her favorite interpretation.

ETA I forgot, sorry, that we are in the tv forum. I see it as even more difficult in the series to build up Tysha as real living character and not as haunting memory, this would take some background screentime where the viewers might have trouble to link it to the main story. It would have to be done in an elegant manner or better not at all. But if the "going last" never happened Tysha would not have to be that superhuman angel of forgiveness, happily ever after more believable.

If there should ever be a Fake Tysha scenario in order to lure Tyrion into a deadly trap then Tysha would not have to be fleshed out as much since she would only be an ephemerical character.

[Annara Snow]

And I agree with you that at the present stage of the story Tyrion would gladly exchange Sansa for Tysha or some other interesting woman.

Tyrion is not in the position to exchange Sansa for anyone - you can't exchange something you don't have.

While I don't believe in a Tyrion/Tysha ending, even that would be more believable than this Tyrion/Sansa ending you keep talking about, although I haven't heard one good argument why it would be believable within Martin's story, which you've been saying, or good repudiation of all reasons why it's extremely unlikely. Even the Tyrion/Dany ship that some are hoping for (apparently it's called Tyrany :laugh:) is more likely at least in theory, since they haven't met yet, while we already know that Sansa doesn't want Tyrion and finds him completely sexually unattractive and that Tyrion doesn't love Sansa or is even particularly interested in her as a person.

[Woman of War]

I cannot tell you if any ending will be believable since to judge that I would have to read it first. But every ending Martin decides for will be believable if it is well written. The characters will feel, believe and hope whatever the author wants them to feel, believe and hope, however unlikely their emotions may seem at this stage of the story. I think if the autor decides to publish it an ending will have passed his personal plausibility test, it will be the ending Martin wants and towards which he has constructed his story. So if it will be published as the autor's choice it would have to be poorly written to be not believable. And I do not at all expect that.

So I am very much convinced if Martin chooses a Tysha/ Tyrion ending it will be well written , if he decides for Dany/Tyrion, Sansa/Tyrion, take any "ship" that has ever be discussed it will be fine too, otherwise the author would stop himself before publication. And if my favorite character dies I will have to accept this too.

What you mean with not "believable" is "unlikely" , is that you think Martin will never write an ending you dislike. And in your opinion you conviniently declare your hated endings to be less likely. Only the author is not Father Christmas in the wish fulfillment business, he will neither ask you nor me but write his own story. And we have to wait until we read it.

And this story will be believable because the author will certainly not deliver any poor writing.

[Le Cygne]

And I agree with you that at the present stage of the story Tyrion would gladly exchange Sansa for Tysha or some other interesting woman. Only there are two more books to come and we have no idea what will happen, you are not cleverer here than I am.

The wife he hardly knew can just as well apply on Sansa as on Tysha, though each of us can find her favorite interpretation.

Agreeing? Tyrion doesn't have Sansa to "exchange" for another. Sansa is not a thing. And he knows, like the reader, because Sansa has made it perfectly clear, she doesn't want him.

And he doesn't want her. Apart from thinking she is false and it's over, all he thinks about is Shae and Tysha. Cersei thinks about Sansa more than Tyrion does.

I also think we are seeing hints that perhaps there was never an annulment, so Tyrion and Tysha are still married. I suspect Littlefinger knows it, too, he's playing everyone. (Added another below...)

And fanwanking Tyrion and Sansa into this sentence is quite a stretch, I'll just let that speak for itself:

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

That's at the end of the book after he's been missing Tysha and calling her his wife. That's the payoff of all of that. Rule of three. He's saying Tysha is the one he misses most of all, and we've seen that, the entire book.

Tyrion is not in the position to exchange Sansa for anyone - you can't exchange something you don't have.

While I don't believe in a Tyrion/Tysha ending, even that would be more believable than this Tyrion/Sansa ending you keep talking about, although I haven't heard one good argument why it would be believable within Martin's story, which you've been saying, or good repudiation of all reasons why it's extremely unlikely. Even the Tyrion/Dany ship that some are hoping for (apparently it's called Tyrany :laugh:) is more likely at least in theory, since they haven't met yet, while we already know that Sansa doesn't want Tyrion and finds him completely sexually unattractive and that Tyrion doesn't love Sansa or is even particularly interested in her as a person.

This.

[Woman of War]

And fanwanking Tyrion and Sansa into this sentence is quite a stretch, I'll just let that speak for itself:

I'd rather not have you tell me I'm "fanwanking". This expression is so vulgar that as a feminist I would never use it to adress another woman. But I guess I'm old fashioned when it comes to manners in political debates and I prefer not to call the mods.

And as I have written a dozen times TySan is not my favorite ship, I'd rather see my favorite with an adult strong woman, more interesting for me as reader. But I will accept what the author gives us and probably love it in the end.

And maybe Sansa will be exactly that hugely interesting woman character in the end :D

[Le Cygne]

Americans don't use the word in that sense, and the commonly accepted meaning on this and other forums = to make something out of nothing:

The etymology of 'wank' shows that it means 'indulgence', particularly any kind of major self-indulgence.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank

But I'd be happy to phrase that differently. You said:

The wife he hardly knew can just as well apply on Sansa as on Tysha, though each of us can find her favorite interpretation.

And that is making something out of nothing.

This, on the other hand, is something:

He would have taken the crossbow from my hands, as once he took Tysha from my arms.

...

It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father’s guardsmen rape her.

...

M’lord would prefer his wife. M’lord would prefer a girl named Tysha.

...

Tyrion thought of Tysha. He glanced out at the fields where once the gods had walked.

...

He remembered the first time with Tysha as well. She did not know how, no more than I did. We kept bumping our noses, but when I touched her tongue with mine she trembled.

...

Not mine. I carry mine own sorrows with me, everywhere I go. He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I’ll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? I want to go back to our cottage, to the way it was when we were man and wife.

...

His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife.

...

“Wherever whores go,” he said. And where is that? Tyrion wanted to ask him. Where did Tysha go, Father?

...

Selhorys may be where whores go. Tysha might be in there even now, with tears tattooed upon her cheek.

...

There was only one such in the house, and she was not Tysha... “Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?” he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. “Do you know where whores go?”

...

He wondered how much his father had hurt when the quarrel punched through his groin, what Shae had felt as he twisted the chain around her lying throat, what Tysha had been feeling as they raped her.

...

Looking for his silver queen. Looking for Daenerys, willing the ship to sail faster. Well, I might do the same if Tysha waited in Meereen.

...

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?

...

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

The last quote came at the end of the book, after he's been missing Tysha over a dozen times, he thinks of her as his "love" and his "wife"...

That's repetition, a common literary technique. He uses the technique with other characters as well. It's one of his signature techniques. Here he's using it with Arya and Jon:

Jon messed up her hair. “I will miss you, little sister.”

...

She wanted Jon to muss up her hair and call her “little sister” and finish her sentences with her.

...

“Most nights it’s my father, but sometimes it’s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle.”

...

She would have given anything if Jon had been here to call her “little sister” and muss her hair.

...

She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.”

...

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya.

...

He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’

...

She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.”

...

“The pointy end.” Jon had told his little sister something like that once, he remembered.

...

He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair.

...

Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

...

In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her.

...

“He’s to marry Arya Stark. My little sister.” Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair.

...

The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister.

...

“You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god.”

...

And Arya too, my little sister, wherever she might be. I pray you, let Mance find her and bring her safe to me.

...

“That’s good.” Jon felt fifteen years old again. Little sister. He rose and donned his cloak.

...

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart.

...

Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

He's building up to something, and in this case, he has built up to Jon rescuing "Arya" - had he not built up to this, the emotional impact would have been far less. As readers, we know how much these two mean to each other. We feel Arya's longing for her family through her closeness with Jon. We feel Jon's anguish when it turns out it's not Arya because we know how much he loves her.

(Just wanted to add, the Tyrion/Tysha quotes above are out of the last book, there are lots more leading up to that...)

[Annara Snow]

I cannot tell you if any ending will be believable since to judge that I would have to read it first. But every ending Martin decides for will be believable if it is well written. The characters will feel, believe and hope whatever the author wants them to feel, believe and hope, however unlikely their emotions may seem at this stage of the story. I think if the autor decides to publish it an ending will have passed his personal plausibility test, it will be the ending Martin wants and towards which he has constructed his story. So if it will be published as the autor's choice it would have to be poorly written to be not believable. And I do not at all expect that.

So I am very much convinced if Martin chooses a Tysha/ Tyrion ending it will be well written , if he decides for Dany/Tyrion, Sansa/Tyrion, take any "ship" that has ever be discussed it will be fine too, otherwise the author would stop himself before publication. And if my favorite character dies I will have to accept this too.

What you mean with "believable" is "unlikely" in your opinion, is that you think Martin will never write an ending you dislike. And in your opinion you conviniently declare your hated endings to be less likely. Only the author is not Father Christmas in the wish fulfillment business, he will neither ask you nor me but write his own story. And we have to wait until we read it.

And this story will be believable because the author will certainly not deliver any poor writing.

No, I am against this extremely unlikely Tyrion/Sansa ending because it makes zero sense. And it makes zero sense exactly because of what Martin has made the characters feel, and that is basic indifference on both sides, and sexual revulsion on her part. He will certainly not try to make them feel the exact opposite of that, unless he's a hack who has no idea about human behavior, which I really don't think he is. What's even more bizarre is that people are only talking about Tyrion/Sansa because he wrote a plot where they were in a disastrous forced quasi-marriage; without that, you wouldn't be even mentioning it all the time. So, since the author built them up as completely incompatible, you think they'd make a likely couple? I don't get it.

I am not "conveniently against the endings I hate"; I am against the endings that would make no sense and would make the series a bad story. (Which is why I would "hate" them if they were somehow to happen. Say, if Martin wrote a joke ending to piss people off, before publishing the real one.) But I'm sure they will not happen, because Martin is not a hack, IMO. I just don't understand your obsession with a supposedly likely, in your opinion, Tyrion/Sansa ending. Every time I ask you why you think it's likely, you try to deflect it with this "Martin can write anything and anything goes". If that's the case, why are we even discussing likely endings? Why are you constantly bringing up Tyrion/Sansa, Why aren't you discussing a possible Tyrion/Chataya ending, or a possible Tyrion/Chela ending, or why not, a possible Tyrion/Lollys ending (let's say Bronn dies tragically)?

The only reason I can see for this strange desire of some Tyrion fans to see Sansa accept Tyrion as a husband (although they usually don't even like Sansa) is because it's seen like some sort of reward for Tyrion, as if somehow if Sansa, the girl who was forced to marry him and didn't want him (and had zero reasons to), made a magical turnaround and decided she wanted him, it would prove Tyrion's lovability/desirability. I find it absurd. I haven't seen any Sansa fans fantasizing that,say, Loras will decide he wants her. (Absurd? Well, you said anything goes, no matter how little sense it makes for the characters' established preferences.)

And BTW, in my heart I'd love a Tyrion/Tysha happy ending, but the reason tells me it's not likely. (Still more likely than Tyrion/Sansa though, since the probability of the latter is 0%.)

[Woman of War]

Americans don't use the word in that sense, and the commonly accepted meaning on this and other forums = to make something out of nothing: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank But I'd be happy to phrase that differently. You said: And that is making something out of nothing.This, on the other hand, is something: The last quote came at the end of the book, after he's been missing Tysha over a dozen times, he thinks of her as his "love" and his "wife"...That's repetition, a common literary technique. He uses the technique with other characters as well. It's one of his signature techniques. Here he's using it with Arya and Jon: He's building up to something, and in this case, he has built up to Jon rescuing "Arya" - had he not built up to this, the emotional impact would have been far less. As readers, we know how much these two mean to each other. We feel Arya's longing for her family through her closeness with Jon. We feel Jon's anguish when it turns out it's not Arya because we know how much he loves her.(Just wanted to add, the Tyrion/Tysha quotes above are out of one book, there are lots more leading up to that...)

Americans don't use.... Well, I'm not American.

Simply stay polite.

As far as I know you are a big fan of SanSan. So I expect you to see your favorite ship with the same detachment as you expect me to see my alleged favorite, your best hated ship.

There is no reason to believe that the concept of SanSan is any better, morally superior or would be more quality writing than any other pairing. There are people who see fangirling over your favorite "ship" as ugly.

[Le Cygne]

No, I am against this extremely unlikely Tyrion/Sansa ending because it makes zero sense. And it makes zero sense exactly because of what Martin has made the characters feel, and that is basic indifference on both sides, and sexual revulsion on her part. He will certainly not try to make them feel the exact opposite of that, unless he's a hack who has no idea about human behavior, which I really don't think he is. What's even more bizarre is that people are only talking about Tyrion/Sansa because he wrote a plot where they were in a disastrous forced quasi-marriage; without that, you wouldn't be even mentioning it all the time. So, since the author built them up as completely incompatible, you think they'd make a likely couple? I don't get it.

I am not "conveniently against the endings I hate"; I am against the endings that would make no sense and would make the series a bad story. (Which is why I would "hate" them if they were somehow to happen. Say, if Martin wrote a joke ending to piss people off, before publishing the real one.) But I'm sure they will not happen, because Martin is not a hack, IMO. I just don't understand your obsession with a supposedly likely, in your opinion, Tyrion/Sansa ending. Every time I ask you why you think it's likely, you try to deflect it with this "Martin can write anything and anything goes". If that's the case, why are we even discussing likely endings? Why are you constantly bringing up Tyrion/Sansa, Why aren't you discussing a possible Tyrion/Chataya ending, or a possible Tyrion/Chela ending, or why not, a possible Tyrion/Lollys ending (let's say Bronn dies tragically)?

The only reason I can see for this strange desire of some Tyrion fans to see Sansa accept Tyrion as a husband (although they usually don't even like Sansa) is because it's seen like some sort of reward for Tyrion, as if somehow if Sansa, the girl who was forced to marry him and didn't want him (and had zero reasons to), made a magical turnaround and decided she wanted him, it would prove Tyrion's lovability/desirability. I find it absurd. I haven't seen any Sansa fans fantasizing that,say, Loras will decide he wants her. (Absurd? Well, you said anything goes, no matter how little sense it makes for the characters' established preferences.)

And BTW, in my heart I'd love a Tyrion/Tysha happy ending, but the reason tells me it's not likely. (Still more likely than Tyrion/Sansa though, since the probability of the latter is 0%.)

All of this. Sansa fans want what Sansa wants, and that's to love and be loved, it has to be mutual.

Adding another quote, yet another time Tyrion is referring to Tysha as his wife in the present tense:

"Perhaps you might smuggle me out under your skirts? I’d be so grateful; why, I’ll even wed you. I have two wives already, why not three? Ah, but where would we live?"

[DaveyJoe]

This thread is making me very uncomfortable.

[Daske]

The rest of the definition on the tropes site is wonderfully worded:

"The etymology of 'wank' shows that it means 'indulgence'...

...particularly any kind of major self-indulgence. Not surprisingly, this leads to it being British slang for masturbation, though it's mostly just their own egos that such writers are stroking. Mostly. The term was coined by Doctor Who fan and Doctor Who Expanded Universe writer Craig Hinton, who was no stranger to it himself."

Ouch!

[Woman of War]

All of this. Sansa fans want what Sansa wants, and that's to love and be loved, it has to be mutual.

And Sansa will want what Martin will make her want. She has no will of her own, she has a function in the story just like any other character and will be led by the author where he needs her for the sake of his wonderful books.

But let's pretend for a moment that Sansa were a really existing person:

If you indeed love her then you should want her to be with Pod. He is her age, brave, loyal and not dumb, has at least some education. The same counts for Edric Storm or Davos's youngest son, both nonexistent in the series but for sure nice guys. Could be replaced by Gendry who is brave, strong and nice but not particularly ecucated.

But some Sansa fans want her not in a happy but in a highly problematic dannnnngerrrrroussss hot relationship, with a guy the trope of cruel sexy beast. If I were mean I'd call that fanwanking since everybody tries to convince me it's not vulgar :D . This shipping is for sure not about the Sansa's happiness if she were a real girl but about the thrill readers get from the virgin and sexy beast trope. Great fanfic material but I do not complain since abusing a character like that will certainly not annoy the character, only the author of the original story. But as I said Sansa is not real and shipping bits and bytes around can hardly hurt her.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

But some Sansa fans want her not in a happy but in a highly problematic dannnnngerrrrroussss hot relationship, with a guy the trope of cruel sexy beast. If I were mean I'd call that fanwanking since everybody tries to convince me it's not vulgar :D . This shipping is for sure not about the Sansa's happiness if she were a real girl but about the thrill readers get from the virgin and sexy beast trope.

As I read these last few posts, I'm reminded of the reaction a few years ago to two celebrities and a disastrous fight - Chris Brown and Rhianna. An argument led to a physical fight and Rhianna took the worst of it. Her battered face was photographed and seen all over the news in the US. A little later the news that they were meeting and talking, possibly to reconcile was heard and then the uproar started: "How can she do that?" "How can she go back to him?" Blog posts were written by many feminists who argued Rhianna can do whatever she wants and if she wants Chris, she has every right to be with him. I'll be honest, this thought perplexed me but as I continued to think about it, I started to understand this perspective. Who's right is it to "protect" someone (a rational adult, of course) from anything? Who's right is it to determine who anyone should be with?

While Sandor has never hit Sansa, he has terrified her, held her at knifepoint and threatened her along with being the only one to show her any kindness, save her when the people attack the royal party and give her sound, useful advice about surviving her situation. She has responded by fantasizing about him. She has every right to fantasize about whomever she wishes. That is true agency. Everyone is allowed to make their own decisions, even decisions that may seem odd or may lead to problems. They have a right to live their own lives.

My problem with these last posts however is the premise that a future Sansan pairing is a positive, desirable situation rather than just Sansa's subconscious desire. The two are hardly the same thing. The other problem I have is the idea that Sansa is entitled to have what no one else has in the series: a special union created because of love that will be magical rather than the practical reasons all noble born unions in Westeros are based on. It's too romantic and perpetuates the songs that created so many problems for Sansa to begin with. Such a plot development shows little growth of character (other than accepting that her true love is not beautiful however, still a true knight from the songs) but it does show agency and for many, this agency is all they want since Sansa has had none for too long. Forget about all the other implications of this plot event like all matches we've seen so far that come together for love end up disastrously or that it would mean a very different life for noble born Sansa than what she ever expected for herself. No, let's just have the romantic Westeros version of Beauty and the Beast and all will be well for our heroine and her tamed beast. She has a right to what she wants. And I say, yes, she does. Really!

But it makes me wonder if the rest of the story of ASOIAF is relevant since such a story line would feel very out of place and far too "Disney". However, yes, as readers, we can each hope for what we want to hope for in this story. That's every reader's right, as well. My hope for Sansa is that she gets her agency, shows her intelligence, surrounds herself with people who appreciate her for who she is and that she finally finds satisfaction and comfort after having had so little of that so far. That's what everyone in Westeros is striving for.

I'd say a more interesting question for this thread is how will the show handle this sub plot of Sansan since there's been very little set up so far. Will they ignore it? Or change it into something else? I'm very curious about this.

Getting back to the OP, I don't think viewers will be shocked to see their golden boy take a turn for the worse. Let's not forget, it will happen after we see him get the short end of the stick several times. By the time Tyrion starts to show the dark actions of the later books, I think viewers will feel he is responding to the injustices that he's suffered and go along with it. That's how his character seems to be forming on the show.

[King Zee]

My problem with these last posts however is the premise that a future Sansan pairing is a positive, desirable situation rather than just Sansa's subconscious desire. The two are hardly the same thing.

I think this is an important factor few take into account. Sansa's fantasizing about Sandor is not deliberate. I'll go a step further and say its largely the result of Sansa having been in "sexual proximity" to precisely 2 men. Tyrion and Sandor. of those two her subcomcious picks Sandor as the one to fantasize about simply because that the only memory her subconscious can use to make the day dream so to speak.

Give Sansa the opportunity to actually have other interactions and you'll see other people replace Sandor in her dreams.

[Annara Snow]

But let's pretend for a moment that Sansa were a really existing person:

If you indeed love her then you should want her to be with Pod. He is her age, brave, loyal and not dumb, has at least some education. The same counts for Edric Storm or Davos's youngest son, both nonexistent in the series but for sure nice guys. Could be replaced by Gendry who is brave, strong and nice but not particularly ecucated.

This is ridiculous. Shipping people who haven't even met is the fandom equivalent of arranged marriages.

So, you think that if you really love someone, you'd arrange a marriage for them regardless of what they or the other party want, because you've decided that they would be a great couple? Sorry. I'm not a fan of arranged marriages. If you really love someone, you'd let them choose what they want.

But some Sansa fans want her not in a happy but in a highly problematic dannnnngerrrrroussss hot relationship, with a guy the trope of cruel sexy beast.

And that happy relationship that's being offered to Sansa is with...? Tyrion? Harry the Heir? Littlefinger?

If I were mean I'd call that fanwanking since everybody tries to convince me it's not vulgar :D

And that would only show that you don't know what the term means.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanWank

"Many of the fan theories which make their way into Fanfic seek to "fix" something the writer believes to be wrong with the source. The fans usually put a lot more thought into this than the show's writers ever did (though show writers have gotten a lot more attentive in recent years, primarily because of the growth of this kind of fan activity). They often come up with answers to questions that either make not a whit of difference in the end, or are more fun without an answer than with. Naturally, these theories often venture way out into fantasyland. When the theory makes you say, "Oh come on!", the fanfic author has stepped over the line into Fan Wank."

You are the one who's trying to fix the actual text - since you're upset with a character dynamic the author himself wrote the way he did - and fantasizing about Sansa having relationships with people she's not attracted to (Tyrion) or that she's never even met (Gendry, Edric etc.) That's pure fanfic territory - you're behaving like a fanfic writer trying to "fix" Sansa's storyline and make it more to your liking.

That, I'm afraid, is pure fanwanking, per the above definition.

I think this is an important factor few take into account. Sansa's fantasizing about Sandor is not deliberate. I'll go a step further and say its largely the result of Sansa having been in "sexual proximity" to precisely 2 men. Tyrion and Sandor. of those two her subcomcious picks Sandor as the one to fantasize about simply because that the only memory her subconscious can use to make the day dream so to speak.

Give Sansa the opportunity to actually have other interactions and you'll see other people replace Sandor in her dreams.

:huh: She's been and still is in much, much closer "sexual proximity" to Littlefinger than she ever was to Sandor.

She's also been in closer "sexual proximity" with Marillion. Arguably with Joffrey as well. Heck, she's even been in a closer 'sexual proximity' to little Sweetrobin (as creepy as that sounds). He's kissed her and groped her breasts ( :ack: ).

Such a plot development shows little growth of character (other than accepting that her true love is not beautiful however, still a true knight from the songs) but it does show agency and for many, this agency is all they want since Sansa has had none for too long. Forget about all the other implications of this plot event like all matches we've seen so far that come together for love end up disastrously or that it would mean a very different life for noble born Sansa than what she ever expected for herself.

Nah, I'm sure you'll enjoy the ending in which GRRM will show that love is rubbish, and good relationships can only come out of arranged matches. Especially the forced ones. (We all loved Ramsey/Jeyne, didn't we?)

You wanna take a bet on that? :)

It's too romantic and perpetuates the songs that created so many problems for Sansa to begin with.

We certainly can't have anything song-like in a series called A Song of Ice and Fire, can we? ;)

(Oh and BTW, here is my old thread on songs in ASOIAF, which is relevant to this discussion.)

[King Zee]

:huh: She's been and still is in much, much closer "sexual proximity" to Littlefinger than she ever was to Sandor.

She's also been in closer "sexual proximity" with Marillion. Arguably with Joffrey as well. Heck, she's even been in a closer 'sexual proximity' to little Sweetrobin (as creepy as that sounds). He's kissed her and groped her breasts ( :ack: ).

I guess I was too vague with "sexual proximity". What I mean is they're in bed and the guy says he wants to f_ck her. ie the closest she's been to actually having sex.

LF still has her guessing what he wants. Joffrey never got that "intimate" with her and Sweet Robin is 10.

Her near rape with Sandor and wedding night with Tyrion are the closest she's been to being sexually intimate.

Her mind is forced to use those experiences to create some sort of day dream to sate her natural desires..