How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[HairGrowsBack]

I think that having Shae infatuated with Tyrion solves one of the show's major problems, that of Tysha. For me, she hasn't come up enough for there to be any real horror at Tywin's betrayal regarding this area, so the simple solution is to have Tywin execute Shae as he threatened. Whilst some will see this as whitewashing Tyrion, I'd rather see that than a half-arsed attempt at reviving the forgotten Tysha plotline, plus it makes Tywin's murder that bit more personal, not just for Tyrion, but for the audience.

I hope they won't though. What you're saying makes sense, but I really loathe the Tyrion whitewashing / worshipping that resulted from the show. Tyrion does terrible things for terrible reasons, and it should stay that way.

Regarding Tysha: they'll have to bring her up again, or they shouldn't have mentioned her in the first place, but instead I feel we're going to have a half-baked thing, which is shame. Also, having Shae replacing Tysha in this regard will hurt the whole Jaime and Tyrion dynamic, won't it ?

[Konradsmith]

They have to give Nikolaj Coster Waldau some more meat this season and so for that reason at least they'll give Jaime another great confession scene, this one to Tyrion. They wouldn't have brought up Tysha at all if they weren't going to bring it back.

[HairGrowsBack]

Her entire third season arc is about her increasing frustration and jealousy over Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. With the golden chain and Varys' diamonds she's under the impression that Tyrion is trying to get rid of her. The rift between Tyrion and Shae has most definitely been developing over the third season, but so many struggle to see it.

True enough, but what bothers me is that it will completely alter the characters' mindsets and motivations, besides being incredibly cliché.

[franko99]

Tysha (or the fact that Tyrion was married) has being brought at least 4 times the last season, the whole root of Tywin's "whorephobia" is because of Tysha, when Cersei kidnapped Ros in season 2 and ask Tyrion if he already married "this one", it was a clear alusion to Tysha...I really don't understand what more do you guys want...if Tyrion keeps mention her name all the time with no apparent reason, it would have quickly became annoying, just like "where whore go" became annoying in aDwD.

And of course, Tysha will be brought again this season, I think thay handle it just right

All unsullied I know remember Tyrion was married to a whore, and Tywin had her raped.

ETA: As for Shae being annoying and Tyrion withewashing diminishing the character, I can't agree more :agree:

[lyanna_maria]

All unsullied I know remember Tyrion was married to a whore, and Tywin had her raped.

Yes, all the unsullied I know remember the Tysha story too. After all, it was an intense scene when he tells the story, I think it would stick in their minds. I also agree with you that Tysha has been brought up enough times during the show, and in key ocassions (when Cersei kidnaps Ros, when Tywin tells Tyrion about his marriage to Sansa..) If they weren't going to use that device, they wouldn't have brought it up in the first place.

[Le Cygne]

Also when GRRM builds something up, and he has built up Tysha in the books, he doesn't just do it for no reason. He's too good a writer for that. Something is going to happen there. It would be too much for the show to clear a path around something that's been built up to in the books. I can't see why they would want to. This isn't something like killing off a minor character early.

[Joseph Nobles]

Has the show revealed the detail of Tywin forcing Tyrion to go last? I just watched the first season again and Tyrion did not get that far in the story. That's a perfect reason to retell the story in the fourth season.

[King of the Road]

I hope they won't though. What you're saying makes sense, but I really loathe the Tyrion whitewashing / worshipping that resulted from the show. Tyrion does terrible things for terrible reasons, and it should stay that way.

Regarding Tysha: they'll have to bring her up again, or they shouldn't have mentioned her in the first place, but instead I feel we're going to have a half-baked thing, which is shame. Also, having Shae replacing Tysha in this regard will hurt the whole Jaime and Tyrion dynamic, won't it ?

The only answer is that they cut the rift between Tyrion and Jaime. It's not ideal but I can seriously see it happening, which would be a shame, though I think it would hurt Jaime's arc more than Tyrion's.

[Konradsmith]

I think its unlikely that they'd throw away the potential for such a powerful scene between Dinklage and Coster-Waldau. They may alter the Shae storyline in some way but the Tysha business is needed to make Tyrion and Jaime's arcs make sense.

[Le Cygne]

That rift is going nowhere, that's big, too. They won't eliminate that.

[Queen of Whores]

Has the show revealed the detail of Tywin forcing Tyrion to go last? I just watched the first season again and Tyrion did not get that far in the story. That's a perfect reason to retell the story in the fourth season.

No, they didn't have Tyrion do that (or at least tell Shae and Bronn he did). This is probably one of the first moments of actual whitewashing of Tyrion in the show. It makes Tyrion look more like a victim, which D&D are a fan of doing.

[Joseph Nobles]

No, they didn't have Tyrion do that (or at least tell Shae and Bronn he did). This is probably one of the first moments of actual whitewashing of Tyrion in the show. It makes Tyrion look more like a victim, which D&D are a fan of doing.

Heh. So it's left to Cersei or Tywin to tell Shae that part of the story?

[Le Cygne]

Heh. So it's left to Cersei or Tywin to tell Shae that part of the story?

That is a good point, and you are right, they did set this up on the show. Thanks for the links, I couldn't stand Shae on the show, and it was somewhat painful to listen to these scenes, but it's clear she's mad as hell.

One thing the show did, which I was surprised by, because it grayed up, momentarily, this "grayest of the gray characters" in the books (GRRM). They made it clear Tyrion had a choice, he could have gone away with her, he's even got enough gold to buy a ship in his hands. He didn't choose her, and she knows it:

Tyrion: "I don't have a choice. My father --"

Shae: "Does not rule the world. We can still go across the narrow sea."

Tyrion: "What would I do there. Juggle? I am a Lannister of Casterly Rock."

Shae: "And I am Shae the funny whore." ...

Tyrion: "Listen to me, my lady."

Shae: "I'm not your lady."

Tyrion: "You are, you'll always be my lady."

Shae: "I'm your whore, and when you are tired of fucking me, I will be nothing."

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

That's a good point Le Cygne. Tyrion has undoubtedly been "Whitewashed" to some extent, but the false conclusion viewers have drawn is that it will result ultimately in Tyrion always being a good guy. My observations and analysis are contrary...David and Dan are fond of extremes, even moreso than GRRM at times. And this fondness of extreme character behavior to me only gives credence to the idea of Tyrion transforming from generally likable guy to something pretty spiteful and violent.

I know a lot of viewers dislike that transgression because Tyrion has always been questionable (at best) ethically in the novels, but I think the writers are purposefully making his moral demise more sudden which might not necessarily be a bad thing for the show. I certainly can't wait for it, and we have to give more credit to the general audience in that they as well will find it fascinating rather than uninteresting (Which it is absolutely not).

Characters can do badly and still be universally loved, if not for being white knights like Eddard Stark, but for just being absolutely entertaining.

[joachim]

Imagine if they made the audience root for Jaime and against Tyrion.

[HairGrowsBack]

Le Cygne : it was a pretty bold move and I liked it: having him say "yes I could go but I actually enjoy the game, I'm 'one of them'", added some required layers to the character.

Joachim: it doesn't seem likely though. Although Jaime didn't know at first who Tysha really was, Tyrion is the victim of the story (after Tysha of course), and they're certainly going to play that card.

[WeddinGuest]

I really don't find Show!Shae to be as annoying as most others here, and I actually found the fleshing out of her character to be quite interesting, and refreshingly different compared to the show's treatment of many other female characters (such as Cat and Sansa).

In the books, we see Shae through Tyrion's eyes, and she really isn't developed more beyond being a female Bronn, a friend (with benefits) bought with money, as well as a sad attempt by Tyrion to recreate what he had with Tysha. After all, until Jaime's confession, Tyrion thinks Tysha was a whore who just pretended to love him, and that's pretty much the same dynamic he assumes he has with Shae, that while he can pretend to himself that she loves him, he knows deep down she doesn't. Not just because she's a whore, but because Tywin's "sharp lesson" had the effect of teaching Tyrion not just "don't trust lowborn women who claim to love you, they're all whores who are out for the Lannister gold", but "don't trust ANY woman to love you, because you are not worthy of love". When Tyrion finds Shae in Tywin's bed, it just confirms all this negative programming, and I saw his actions as completely understandable, and yet, not quite justified, either. However, Shae's importance to the plot seemed mostly confined to the impact of her actions on Tyrion.

The show, so far, seems to be trying to show Shae as an important character in her own right, who will be shown as having her own motivations to turn against Tyrion, other than simply selling out to the highest bidder the same way Bronn did because that's just what whores and sellswords do. I agree with what DaveyJones has said, that the S3 was hinting at a slowly developing rift between Tyrion and Shae. BTW, I'm fairly sure the "you're my lady"/"no I'm your whore" conversation Le Cygne quoted, is based on one that actually take place in the books; though I can't quote chapter and verse, I do recall such a dialogue, that Tyrion interprets as Shae simply reminding him of the cold hard fact that she is a whore, not a true lover, but this is how Tyrion would tend to interpret such a conversation, for the reasons I've given above.

Also, I wonder if GRRM meant for even Book!Shae to have hidden depths. While she is certainly lying through her teeth in Tyrion's trial when it comes to his guilt, I came across an interesting post on reddit once in which someone pointed out that she very well may have been telling the truth when she said she never meant to be a whore, as we know she fled her abusive father, and that even the story of being betrothed to a squire who Tyrion ruthlessly had killed, might have a kernel of truth to it; Tyrion does ask Shae about the man whose tent she was in when Bronn found her, and seems concerned he may cause trouble, and she placates him by saying the man isn't anyone important. Tyrion assumes this man was just a client, but he doesn't know that for certain. Shae may very well have feared Tyrion would get rid of her former lover, and downplayed his importance to her.

Now, I realize that the "whore with a heart of gold" is a stereotype, but so is the "amoral whore who sells herself to the highest bidder", and it seems Shae's life and death is only important in the books to provide Tyrion with angst. I'd actually applaud the showrunners if they manage to develop the Shae plot a little more. I can definitely see a "tragic misunderstanding leading to Shae's death" angle, as opposed to a "Shae doing what a whore does, and Tyrion over-reacting to it, leading to Shae's death" angle. I certainly DO expect Tyrion to kill Shae by strangling her, otherwise why show that gold necklace?

As for Tysha, agree with franko99 that the show wouldn't have mentioned her, and kept mentioning her, if she wasn't important. BTW, for all the brouhaha over the "fridging" of female characters in the show, I don't think GRRM himself is totally innocent of that in the books. While he hasn't "fridged" Tysha by killing her (at least, not yet), all she's done in the books so far is show how evil Tywin is, and give Tyrion motivation for killing Tywin, then roaming Essos pondering "where whores go". That seems to be quite close to the definition of fridging per TVTropes (except that Tysha was raped, not killed): "A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish. The usual victims are those who matter to the hero, specifically best buddies, love interests, and sidekicks."

It also seems to me that most fans, even female fans, think of Tyrion, not Tysha, as the primary victim of Tywin's actions, and angst over how Tywin sexually abused Tyrion, even though I think Tysha's ordeal was much worse than Tyrion's (she wasn't betrayed by her father, but she was by the man she loved, and while the reader can, from a distance, recognize that Tyrion was a victim, I really wouldn't blame Tysha at all if she slaps Tyrion in the face the next time she sees him). As for the show not having Tyrion disclose that he himself raped Tysha; I think it's way too early to assume this was white-washing, since there certainly is room in S4 for that reveal; I can see Jaime confessing to Tyrion that he lied, and Tyrion himself confessing to the rape in return. Saving the reveal for later would be similar to how the show saved Arya's first outburst of NON-defensive violence for S3, not S2.

Though I must confess, I'm not 100% sure they will commit to revealing Tyrion as a rapist, even a coerced one. For all the talk about "sexualized violence" in regard to Joff's actions WRT Ros (both in S2 and S3), Joff never actually rapes Ros. The show DID show Drogo raping Dany, but didn't show the Dothraki raping the Lhazareen women, only trying to herd them into a pen; Mago is shown trying to catch a girl, and it's obvious what he plans to do when he does, but he hadn't even taken off any clothes when Dany orders him to stop. They also really played down the extent of what Arya sees at Harrenhall, including the rapes perpetrated by both the Mountain's and Roose's men. I think that while some of the critiques of the show WRT sexualized violence have merit, simply saying "the show has more of it than the books, and must be condemned" is a little too simplistic.

[Konradsmith]

For some reason the paste function hasn't worked for me on this website, but I intended to paste the gif from the 5 seconds of season 4 that aired during the end-of-year HBO video. In there Tyrion looks DARK, in garb and in mood. Given the propensity on TV for antiheroes, I don't think HBO will shy too far away from the book's account. Tyrion descends and breaks down, transforming from the morally ambiguous rogue with a soft spot to a vengeful wrathful man. Maybe HBO has "whitewashed" him thus far to make this arc more compelling or shocking.

[Woman of War]

Has the show revealed the detail of Tywin forcing Tyrion to go last? I just watched the first season again and Tyrion did not get that far in the story. That's a perfect reason to retell the story in the fourth season.

No, they haven't.

And they somewhat have writen themselves into a dead end with making Tyrion sixteen in the show instead of thirteen.

Forcing a thirteen year od child into sexual activity, any kind of sex, not only this gruesome version, is clear child abuse and the guilty party is always the abusive adult. And making the child an accomplice of the deed is a known technique of abusers to destroy the personality of the abused, to create a terrible dependency or, today, to prevent the child from going to the police. "You had a boner, you touched the other child yourself - you wanted it, so don't complain now." Involving a child, boy or girl, into a sexual act, be it a rape or child porn production, is always child abuse, in my country punished nearly as severely as physical rape, and the guilty part is the adult while the children concerned get therapy and not prison. And yet the child Tyrion has his part of the guilt, maybe not first of all as sexual abuser but for having been a coward, for not using his brain, for not having stood up against this terrible father, for not even, for sure in vain, having tried to fight back and to express solidarity with Tysha. His age will not save Tyrion from the memory that he has failed here but the true guilt is elsewhere.

But in the series Tyrion is sixteen. The showmakers simply could not have made him do the same thing, "go last" with Tysha. This would have characterized him in a totally different manner since he was nearly an adult after the series' standards. In the books at sixteen he would have counted as completely adult while the age would be higher in the tv version.

So Tyrion's moral responsibility would be a completely different one. A sixteen year old would be punishable in our world too and could have realized the lie behind the story. And he should have been able to distance himself from Big Daddy in a different manner.

So with aging the characters up they had to change this part of the story as well, this is not "whitewashing" but a necessity.

This has nothing to do with seeing Tyrion as the primary victim, of course all those events were far more horrible for Tysha but we should not forget that male children can just as much be victim of abuse as female children. And that clever abusers try to make their victims part of the guilt in order to gain control over them.

[WeddinGuest]

WOW: While I totally agree with you about contemporary 13 year olds, I'm not sure we can apply that to Westerosi 13 year olds. Our society seems to have accepted that there are some 13 year olds, or even younger adolescents, who have the ability to consent to sexual activity with their peers, but do not have the ability to consent to sexual activity with adults. (Even though I feel odd writing that, as I can't remember knowing anyone my age who was sexually active when I was 13, but as many posters have vouched that they themselves were sexually active at 13, or knew other 13 year olds who were, I guess I'll have to accept it as fact in some circles.)

However, I've gotten to a point where I just accept that a Westerosi 13 year old is supposed to have the maturity of a RL 16 year old, the same way Westerosi seasons can last many years, which they don't in RL. GRRM himself has admitted that he really wasn't that familiar with normal child development, not having any children himself. He's also stated that Dany/Drogo is a love story, and he seems to see Dany as totally capable of consenting to being an equal participant in sex with the much older Drogo at age 13, even though in our world, she'd be seen as a child abuse victim, much like Elizabeth Smart or Jaycee Dugard were (both being US cases of young girls being kidnapped by much older men and forced to sexually service them as "wives" -- and both had opportunities to escape that they did NOT take advantage of, long before they were rescued from these situations).

So if I extrapoIate from that, I have to conclude that GRRM did NOT mean for the reader to judge Tyrion as they would a 13 year old down the block today, and cut him slack due to his age; I think he meant for Tyrion to be both victim AND victimizer in that scene, as so many of his characters (such as Cersei) are. (You could also argue that if Pod and Joff were 13 in the show, Show!Tyrion would be guilty of sexually abusing them by procuring whores for them, but I don't think the show-runners meant for that to be the case.)

I think the jury is still out on whether Tyrion "going last" will make it or not. Note that the fully adult Tyrion DOES rape bedslaves in Essos in the books, so "Tyrion being guilty of rape as an adult" is NOT new territory. However, the way TV!Tyrion so clearly states to Tywin WRT Sansa that "I will NOT rape her" really makes me suspect that what he really was supposed to be thinking there was "I will NOT rape my wife on your command ever again, even though I did it to my first wife".