How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[DaveyJoe]

Shae refused to leave because she truly loved Tyrion and believed he loved her. It's very different than it was in the books (where she was always whining about clothes and apartments). Show-Shae was stupid, but she was soap opera stupid (this is a very common soap opera motif -- hero dumps girlfriend to "save her" from the bad guys, but she's so broken up that she ends up hurting him back).

Sure, Shae chose her life over Tyrion's (partly because she believed his stupid break-up words), but so did Bronn. And so would Tyrion have done, had the tables been turned. He brought Shae to King's Landing even after his father specificially said he'd have her killed if he ever saw her there. So he started the whole thing in motion. No, he had no right to kill her.

I agree, the best thing for everybody would have been for Tyrion to fight the Mountain.

[sj4iy]

Shae refused to leave because she truly loved Tyrion and believed he loved her. It's very different than it was in the books (where she was always whining about clothes and apartments). Show-Shae was stupid, but she was soap opera stupid (this is a very common soap opera motif -- hero dumps girlfriend to "save her" from the bad guys, but she's so broken up that she ends up hurting him back).

Sure, Shae chose her life over Tyrion's (partly because she believed his stupid break-up words), but so did Bronn. And so would Tyrion have done, had the tables been turned. He brought Shae to King's Landing even after his father specificially said he'd have her killed if he ever saw her there. So he started the whole thing in motion. No, he had no right to kill her.

Yes, but Bronn didn't go into a trial and make shit up to get Tyrion convicted. And Shae was told over and over and over again that she needed to leave- it was HER stupidity that kept her there, thinking that she could change Tyrion. Tyrion was dumb to bring her in the first place, but she was stupid to stay after she was told she needed to take the money and leave. Instead, she let her jealously of Sansa get in the way of common sense and stayed only to make Tyrion as miserable as she was.

Bronn's a sellsword with no allegiance to anyone but himself. Tyrion knew that straight away and didn't hold it against him when he turned down Tyrion's offer. Shae was the only person he loved and trusted in KL and she betrayed him horrendously to save her own life. Sorry, I have no sympathy for her situation- Tyrion is right to strangle her after what she did to him...first lying about his 'confession' then sleeping with his father. I don't blame him at all.

[kacunnin]

Yes, but Bronn didn't go into a trial and make shit up to get Tyrion convicted. And Shae was told over and over and over again that she needed to leave- it was HER stupidity that kept her there, thinking that she could change Tyrion. Tyrion was dumb to bring her in the first place, but she was stupid to stay after she was told she needed to take the money and leave. Instead, she let her jealously of Sansa get in the way of common sense and stayed only to make Tyrion as miserable as she was.

Bronn's a sellsword with no allegiance to anyone but himself. Tyrion knew that straight away and didn't hold it against him when he turned down Tyrion's offer. Shae was the only person he loved and trusted in KL and she betrayed him horrendously to save her own life. Sorry, I have no sympathy for her situation- Tyrion is right to strangle her after what she did to him...first lying about his 'confession' then sleeping with his father. I don't blame him at all.

But no one threatened Bronn with death to MAKE him testify against Tyrion. What do you think he would have done had that happened? No way would he have died to protect Tyrion (nor would I expect him to).

I get that a lot of people have little sympathy for Shae. What bothers me is the way the show has changed her character, making it clear that she and Tyrion really were in love, showing her turning down diamonds, offering to run away with Tyrion, saying how much she loves Sansa, etc. -- none of which was in the book. So on the show we have a stupid girl who believed in the fantasy of her romance with Tyrion Lannister -- and he encouraged her to believe it. Then he dumps her cruelly, Bronn tries to get her out of town, but Cersei's spies make short work of that. So she's in Cersei/Tywin's hands, and they hold all the cards. She can do what they want, or she can die. It's pretty much a hopeless position to be in, since the liklihood is they would have killed her in the end, anyway.

Most viewers will argee with you -- they won't blame Tyrion at all. But I do -- what he did was wrong. You don't kill a woman who was clearly forced to do something she would never have done otherwise. And he knows this is true.

[Bridgeburners]

Well, I have seen posts from readers over the past few years taking Bronn to task, calling it a betrayal of Tyrion, things like that. :dunno:

Where did I blame Shae for fucking Tyrion? I was making an observation about the nature of Shae and Tyrion's relationship in contrast to the one with Bronn. As unfair as it seems, fucking can figure into crimes of passion, usually much more so than a relationship about being a paid body guard. That also brings up a difference in the murders.......Tyrion comes looking for Tywin and answers about Tysha while it's a fluke that he finds Shae there in Daddy's bed, all of which multiplies the happenstance and crime of passion scenario that results in Shae's death.

You gotta admit, though, there's a hell of a lot more people decrying Shae than Bronn, and it is the double standard that Kacunnin is talking about. It's just like the whole "bossy" thing... yes, people call both demanding male and female bosses "bossy" when they deliver their agenda. It's just that it tends to happen a lot more often when the female boss does that than the male one.

Yes, but Bronn didn't go into a trial and make shit up to get Tyrion convicted. And Shae was told over and over and over again that she needed to leave- it was HER stupidity that kept her there, thinking that she could change Tyrion. Tyrion was dumb to bring her in the first place, but she was stupid to stay after she was told she needed to take the money and leave. Instead, she let her jealously of Sansa get in the way of common sense and stayed only to make Tyrion as miserable as she was.

Bronn's a sellsword with no allegiance to anyone but himself. Tyrion knew that straight away and didn't hold it against him when he turned down Tyrion's offer. Shae was the only person he loved and trusted in KL and she betrayed him horrendously to save her own life. Sorry, I have no sympathy for her situation- Tyrion is right to strangle her after what she did to him...first lying about his 'confession' then sleeping with his father. I don't blame him at all.

You seem to keep on ignoring the fact that she was threatened with her life to do this. The only argument you really have is that she was stupid enough to stay in KL. Yeah, it's true, that was stupid and based on romantic notions. That doesn't give you the ability to blame the victim. It's just like blaming a woman for going to the worst neighbourhood in the city at 2 AM and getting raped. Yeah, she was stupid for doing that, but the blame goes 100% to the perpetrator, not the victim. Aside from that, your argument that she betrayed him holds zero ground because, as mentioned many times, she would have sacrificed her own life had she not testified. There's no reason she should have to sacrifice her life to give Tyrion a small chance to salvage his own.

[sj4iy]

You gotta admit, though, there's a hell of a lot more people decrying Shae than Bronn, and it is the double standard that Kacunnin is talking about. It's just like the whole "bossy" thing... yes, people call both demanding male and female bosses "bossy" when they deliver their agenda. It's just that it tends to happen a lot more often when the female boss does that than the male one.

You seem to keep on ignoring the fact that she was threatened with her life to do this. The only argument you really have is that she was stupid enough to stay in KL. Yeah, it's true, that was stupid and based on romantic notions. That doesn't give you the ability to blame the victim. It's just like blaming a woman for going to the worst neighbourhood in the city at 2 AM and getting raped. Yeah, she was stupid for doing that, but the blame goes 100% to the perpetrator, not the victim. Aside from that, your argument that she betrayed him holds zero ground because, as mentioned many times, she would have sacrificed her own life had she not testified. There's no reason she should have to sacrifice her life to give Tyrion a small chance to salvage his own.

Where did I ignore it? I said she was forced and it was her life or Tyrion's...but you cannot escape the fact that the ONLY person that put her in that situation was herself because she refused to leave, time and time again, then did stupid stuff out of jealousy that caused Cersei to find out about them.

I don't blame Tyrion for killing her. Yes, it's monstrous, and it will haunt him, but I don't blame him after what she did to him, only to find her sleeping with the father who hated him,

[HairGrowsBack]

Where did I ignore it? I said she was forced and it was her life or Tyrion's...but you cannot escape the fact that the ONLY person that put her in that situation was herself because she refused to leave, time and time again, then did stupid stuff out of jealousy that caused Cersei to find out about them.

I don't blame Tyrion for killing her. Yes, it's monstrous, and it will haunt him, but I don't blame him after what she did to him, only to find her sleeping with the father who hated him,

She can't be held responsible for something she didn't know would happen. When she refused to leave, she didn't know Tyrion would be accused of regicide a few months later.

I do blame Tyrion for killing her; it's his right to be angry-devastated-whatever, not to take her life.

[sj4iy]

She can't be held responsible for something she didn't know would happen. When she refused to leave, she didn't know Tyrion would be accused of regicide a few months later.

I do blame Tyrion for killing her; it's his right to be angry-devastated-whatever, not to take her life.

She can be held responsible for her knowing it COULD happen after Tyrion told her to stop.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

You gotta admit, though, there's a hell of a lot more people decrying Shae than Bronn, and it is the double standard that Kacunnin is talking about. It's just like the whole "bossy" thing... yes, people call both demanding male and female bosses "bossy" when they deliver their agenda. It's just that it tends to happen a lot more often when the female boss does that than the male one.

It will be interesting to see the differences in thoughts and feelings about Shae's death with all the changes made to her storyline. Just as interesting will be if they have Tyrion feel guilty about it, he does so in the books. He refers to himself as a shell of a himself, paraphrasing, a vengeful spirit that snuffed out Shae and Tywin, regardless of Daddy begging for it all his life. He thinks about this when he thinks he's dying in The Sorrows. He thinks to himself all that remains is a ghost, he died in KL. How will the show handle that aspect of it is just as interesting to ponder, I think.

Now, I suspect that TV audiences, some of it, will cheer at Shae's death. That's just the nature of fictional entertainment. It's safe to enjoy the death of a character that one doesn't like, and be glad that an annoying actress is gone. That IS the nature of entertainment sometimes. I suspect I will enjoy it myself, a wee bit, and it being fiction, I don't feel bad about that.

The irony is......I do wish they'd leave in the importance and severity of it, for Tyrion's character, but time will tell.

[fire_ice]

It will be interesting to see the differences in thoughts and feelings about Shae's death with all the changes made to her storyline. Just as interesting will be if they have Tyrion feel guilty about it, he does so in the books. He refers to himself as a shell of a himself, paraphrasing, a vengeful spirit that snuffed out Shae and Tywin, regardless of Daddy begging for it all his life. He thinks about this when he thinks he's dying in The Sorrows. He thinks to himself all that remains is a ghost, he died in KL. How will the show handle that aspect of it is just as interesting to ponder, I think.

I think it can be annoying for readers when changes are made to characters on the show for viewers enjoyment, although it's obviously understandable. But I agree that I really want him to be a shell of himself, of course you would be a shell after losing all of that and doing such immoral things- even in Westeros kinslaying is up there with the worst things- and despite what Tywin (and Shae to an extent?) have done to him, the writers cannot keep Tyrion the way he is now after such a life changing action; he needs to be guilt stricken and lost.

But although they could vocalise some of Tyrions self loathing thoughts and sarcastic black humor, I don't know how the writers will portray this 'shell' in the programme. Because sadly as we've seen, some thought processes or the more introverted characters can be mistaken by viewers as boring. Sansa is an example of someone who I'm really upset to say is hated by many viewers just because her character and story is built mainly through thought and clever silence. Similarly a depressed and different Tyrion might lose some viewer interest because it could be hard to get it right, and for this reason I'm worried that they won't do it.

[The New Alive]

Tyrion warned Shae multiple times that if she didn't leave KL, she would be used against him. That she was too dense to accept this is no real excuse. Even in the show, where we actually see that she loved Tyrion, all I see in her testimony is bitterness. She feels no shame in betraying the man who never stopped loving her.

I wouldn't condemn her to death for that, but considering Tyrion's state of mind when he finds her in Tywin's bed, I can't blame him for murdering her in a fit of rage. Still, it came as a shock to me in the book (partly because I didn't know what to think about Shae at that point), and it should have an even greater effect on the viewers, who have seen none of Tyrion's flaws yet.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

I feel pretty alone in saying that I really hated Tyrion for what he did to Shae at the end of aSoS. I know a lot of people don't respond very strongly to that, because Shae was a minor character, and a lot of people felt that she "had it coming". But to me, he was still completely unjustified in murdering her, even if I was upset with her betrayal. In the end, the way I see it, he murdered a poor innocent girl who didn't deserve it, and I see her as collateral damage in Tyrion's sour mood from his earlier conversation with Jamie.

Now the TV show is doing a much more thorough job in developing Shae's character and making her likeable. I have a feeling that when she is forced into her situation in court to testify against Tyrion, the TV fans will have the sympathy for her that I did when I read it. And when/if Tyrion kills her, the TV fans will see it as the despicable act as I did, and be as disillusioned with Tyrion's character as I (and surely some others) were.

Right now, there's mixed feelings about Tyrion altogether among the book fans. Because TV Shae is much more developed and likeable, do you think the TV fans will despise him a lot more than the book fans did after he kills her? Is it possible that the TV producers will make the writers kill her some other way, in order to maintain fan appeasement of Tyrion's character? (I certainly hope that's not the case; this series should be renowned for its lack of black and white characters.)

Yeah, this should be a problem, but given that fans complained about not getting any nudity from "Roz's" arrow-ridden corpse (the sexual violence wasn't sexual enough, I guess), I doubt they're going to shed a tear for Shae.

D&D turned what was a pathetic one-sided affair into some stupid Romeo & Juliet cliche. Tyrion cared so much for her (but she didn't understand) that he had to hurt her (for her own good), and now she's a woman scorned. In the book, she's just a lying ho who backstabs him as soon as she gets a better offer. On the show, she had understandable reasons for flipping on him.

[Rhaquentis]

The audience will probably be surprised, but this is Tyrion we're talking about; he is forgiven of everything. Besides, after Tywin is shot, which Unsullied will care that much about Shae? So many things to overshadow her death in this episode :P

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

The audience will probably be surprised, but this is Tyrion we're talking about; he is forgiven of everything. Besides, after Tywin is shot, which Unsullied will care that much about Shae? So many things to overshadow her death in this episode :P

Saint Tyrion of House Whitewash...he can do no wrong.

[Rhaquentis]

Saint Tyrion of House Whitewash...he can do no wrong.

Definitely not a saint, but still an amazing character that most fans root for, Unsullied or not. :)

[Angmar]

I'd be more surprised if the Tywin fanboys came out and cried about how Tyrion killed the "best dad in Westeros". Fuck, even the track "No Son of Mine" sounds sad about it.

No sympathy for Tywin, man.

But eh, if these Unsullied are the "typical" Unsullied (aka the ones who don't really care for the story and characters and are 24/7 "KAHLEESI!!! IMP!!!! ARYA!!!!" like the clown of Doug Walker) they will surely once again side with Tyrion.

[Woman of War]

I'd be more surprised if the Tywin fanboys came out and cried about how Tyrion killed the "best dad in Westeros". Fuck, even the track "No Son of Mine" sounds sad about it.

No sympathy for Tywin, man.

But eh, if these Unsullied are the "typical" Unsullied (aka the ones who don't really care for the story and characters and are 24/7 "KAHLEESI!!! IMP!!!! ARYA!!!!" like the clown of Doug Walker) they will surely once again side with Tyrion.

You mean those who like Dany, Tyrion and Arya do not really care for the story while you yourself are one of those enlightened fans who know what GRRM truly thinks and wants?

So cheap.

[Winters'chill]

Lately the character has been bugging me, they are turning him into a Froddo that uses swear words.

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

I don't understand the sympathy for Shae. Her false testimony contributed to an innocent man getting convicted and charged with death, which is indirect murder. She might have been forced into it, but she had a chance to leave and she never took it.

[Kasakka]

If Tyrion isn't going to kill Shae, I'm going to riot. DnD should stop whitewashing Tyrion and they should show more of his darker side, which I expect them to do now.

Even though I love HBO-Tywin, he deserves to die and all, but this is still going to be a sad moment. A son killing his father. (and no please don't drop the Aerys-bomb)

[GeorgeIAF]

I bet that my Unsullied, after watching her in Tywin's bed, will be satisfied with Tyrion killing her, they already can't stand her and the fact that she choosed to stay instead of taking the ship.