How will the TV Audience feel about Tyrion? (Book 3 Spoiler)

[Cas Stark]

The thing is that she is given the opportunity to avoid the type of life she'd been leading before : can you blame her for seizing it ? What you're saying is that it's better for her to keep on leading a shitty, dangerous life so as not to hurt Tyrion's feelings ?

How so? Show Shae is offered a giant bag of diamonds and a free ship to Essos and she refuses it on the grounds that Tyrion should tell her himself if he wants her to leave. So she has already refused an opportunity for a better life.

[jaimecersei]

Sorry, but there is no proof for coercion at all within the series, this is no more than a theory. Yes, she may have been brought to Tywin but this does for sure not prove that she had to be coerced into giving testimony against Tyrion and Sansa, Shae may have done it very willingly at either Cersei's or Tywin's suggestion. We cannot know.

Manipulation? In the books Shae herself came to Cersei in order to ask for her clothes and jewels. And Cersei may have suggested a little bending of the truth at the trial as condition. It is it manipulation? Yes, since without it Shae would maybe not have served those lies in court, the personal hatred was lacking in the books. Was it a risky, if not stupid move to put herself into the focus of those in power? Yes. Does it mean it took much persuasion, apart from some coin on top of her stuff, to make her testify the spiteful way she did? No.

obviously shae was an opportunist who was mostly interested in only the money from the beginning. but when you are brought in front of tywin and cersei lannister, and they ask you to do something. its not a "suggestion". like this is a poor girl who is stuck in this feud between the richest, most powerful and ruthless royal family. tyrion killing shae is wrong and fucked up.

[Woman of War]

The thing is that she is given the opportunity to avoid the type of life she'd been leading before : can you blame her for seizing it ? What you're saying is that it's better for her to keep on leading a shitty, dangerous life so as not to hurt Tyrion's feelings ?

This is not about Tyrion's feelings, this is about Tyrion's life.

No, I would not blame Shae for avoiding to live the life again she had before.

But not at the cost of having part in a deadly betrayal. There are things that can be excused, even morally ambiguous things, to improve your situation without turning totally immoral. Minor things. But swearing a perjury that may cost someone's life is NO such thing!!!

We can find explanations for why book Shae, the maybe abused child, never learned human decency. But this does not make her entitled to use evil means in order to improve her fate. Would she be entitled to rob or even murder the rich neighbour since she could stop working as prostitute then? A shitty background is an explanation but certainly no justification.

Nor would HBO Shae be entitled to that kind of crime to inprove her situation or out of revenge.

I would also like to improve my situation, I have only the best intentions, like sendig my kids to good schools. Am I entitled to swear a perjury for money?

obviously shae was an opportunist who was mostly interested in only the money from the beginning. but when you are brought in front of tywin and cersei lannister, and they ask you to do something. its not a "suggestion". like this is a poor girl who is stuck in this feud between the richest, most powerful and ruthless royal family. tyrion killing shae is wrong and fucked up.

We will probably never know if she gladly agreed or was coerced.

[HairGrowsBack]

How so? Show Shae is offered a giant bag of diamonds and a free ship to Essos and she refuses it on the grounds that Tyrion should tell her himself if he wants her to leave. So she has already refused an opportunity for a better life.

I was mostly talking of book Shae, but my point stands for Show Shae as well. Yes, she refused money and a comfortable life months ago, when she thought Tyrion would keep her. By the time of the trial the offer is gone, and she's back to nothing. I have also a hard time believing that Show!Shae wasn't coerced : see Tywin and Cersei's conversation in 4x02 and Shae's frightened behavior in 4x06.

Woman of War : Tyrion was doomed in any case. Shae's testimony didn't change anything ; it might have been, at most, the nail in the coffin, but the coffin was already there. Hadn't she testified, he would have been condemned anyway.

[Bridgeburners]

If Shae testified of her own volition, without any coercion, then I side with Catastrophe and Woman_of_War on this. There is absolutely no justification for falsely condemning a man in trial just to get yourself ahead in life. I'm actually a little surprised that Hair is trying to justify it. But then, we don't know whether or not she was coerced. I argue that if she was coerced, it absolutely justifies her testimony. Catastrophe claims that it was verified by Cersei's PoV that she wasn't... can I have the quote please? I recall no such verification. Unless Shae went to them on her own, even if there was no direct threat, there was certainly the implication, which would be more than enough for the Lannisters. Especially considering that Tywin has, multiple times, threatened Tyrion that he'd kill his whore. So the claim that Shae was under no stated or implied threat is a massive assumption and, I'd argue, the far less likely scenario.

Okay, but this is all one big red herring. Remember, this thread isn't about whether or not Tysha was justified in testifying against Tyrion. This is about whether or not Tyrion murdering Shae is justified, and, well, it's not. Even in the worst case scenario for Shae - she never had any affection for Tyrion and was just sleeping her way ahead, then testified of her own volition just to get ahead without any coercion whatsoever - Tyrion was not justified in killing her. There was no self defence there, there was no protection of Shae's future victims, there was simply no righteous rationale behind Tyrion's action. It was just vengeance, plain and simple, against a girl who couldn't defend herself and posed no threat. It was a murder to make himself feel better emotionally. (I'm talking about aSoS though, in the show it was arguably self defence.)

[Woman of War]

Woman of War : Tyrion was doomed in any case. Shae's testimony didn't change anything ; it might have been, at most, the nail in the coffin, but the coffin was already there. Hadn't she testified, he would have been condemned anyway.

And how would she know that Tyrion is doomed anyway? She has no idea of how intrigues work, otherwise she would have left a while ago.

After that logic she can just rob or murder her neighbour if he has terminal cancer.

And I agree with Bridgeburners since Tyrion doing something evil here is so very important for his arc, it should not be denied.

In the show it was arguably self defense though Tyrion was not as much out of his mind as he was after the Tysha revelation.

[HairGrowsBack]

Bridgeburners + Woman of War : - I'm not trying to justify it so much as trying to understand beyond the too often seen (not here, mind you) "Shae is an evil bitch" or "can't trust a hoe".

- I think it would be fairly obvious to anybody that they would have other people testifying - especially since, in Westeros, a "whore"'s word is not like to be taken seriously.

Mostly, it's hard to talk about Show!Shae's motivation and circumstances because , let's be real, most of her arc was terribly inconsistent writing.

[Woman of War]

Bridgeburners + Woman of War : - I'm not trying to justify it so much as trying to understand beyond the too often seen (not here, mind you) "Shae is an evil bitch" or "can't trust a hoe".

- I think it would be fairly obvious to anybody that they would have other people testifying - especially since, in Westeros, a "whore"'s word is not like to be taken seriously.

Mostly, it's hard to talk about Show!Shae's motivation and circumstances because , let's be real, most of her arc was terribly inconsistent writing.

I have always tried to understand Shae and to empathize with her situation as sex worker. She is not"an evil bitch", she has done something evil.

I am not willing to blur morality in order to justify her behaviour. Empathy is DIFFERENT from justification. And the " she was entitled to betrayal, she was a whore is a horrible one.

What she did was wrong. And do not forget that any coercion would have had to be massive to justify her accusing Sansa as well, is that justified too? Here we cannot assume any ill feelings, any fury over (alleged) betrayal (if you do not assume that Sansa having what Shae would want - marriage - would be any kind of justification)

[Bridgeburners]

Bridgeburners + Woman of War : - I'm not trying to justify it so much as trying to understand beyond the too often seen (not here, mind you) "Shae is an evil bitch" or "can't trust a hoe".

- I think it would be fairly obvious to anybody that they would have other people testifying - especially since, in Westeros, a "whore"'s word is not like to be taken seriously.

Mostly, it's hard to talk about Show!Shae's motivation and circumstances because , let's be real, most of her arc was terribly inconsistent writing.

It's different to empathize and to rationalize. Empathizing would be more honest, such as that she wanted to get ahead because she had a shitty life, she felt pressure from a strong establishment that considers her nothing but scum, etc. Rationalizing is telling yourself things to help you justify what you're doing. Saying things like "they were probably going to condemn him anyway, her testimony probably didn't have much of an impact" is rationalizing. In fact, so would saying "Tyrion was okay to kill her because she betrayed him and condemned him, probably not under threat of death". That's also a rationalization.

[HairGrowsBack]

I have always tried to understand Shae and to empathize with her situation as sex worker. She is not"an evil bitch", she has done something evil.

I am not willing to blur morality in order to justify her behaviour. Empathy is DIFFERENT from justification. And the " she was entitled to betrayal, she was a whore is a horrible one.

What she did was wrong. And do not forget that any coercion would have had to be massive to justify her accusing Sansa as well, is that justified too? Here we cannot assume any ill feelings, any fury over (alleged) betrayal (if you do not assume that Sansa having what Shae would want - marriage - would be any kind of justification)

Well as to that :

Mostly, it's hard to talk about Show!Shae's motivation and circumstances because , let's be real, most of her arc was terribly inconsistent writing.

Sibel herself tried to talk D&D out of it because it was OOC and inconsistent, but they wouldn't hear any of it.

Bridge : I felt like I was mostly empathizing, apologies if it came out otherwise. What Shae did was wrong, and not justified, but I can sympathise with her (as far as Book Shae is concerned, anyway), especially if she was coerced into it.

[Catastrophe]

The thing is that she is given the opportunity to avoid the type of life she'd been leading before : can you blame her for seizing it ? What you're saying is that it's better for her to keep on leading a shitty, dangerous life so as not to hurt Tyrion's feelings ?

This has nothing to do with Tyrion's feelings, his life was on the line! And yes, from a moral perspective, it would've been better for her to keep living a life of poverty than to do something that could get another person killed.

If Shae testified of her own volition, without any coercion, then I side with Catastrophe and Woman_of_War on this. There is absolutely no justification for falsely condemning a man in trial just to get yourself ahead in life. I'm actually a little surprised that Hair is trying to justify it. But then, we don't know whether or not she was coerced. I argue that if she was coerced, it absolutely justifies her testimony. Catastrophe claims that it was verified by Cersei's PoV that she wasn't... can I have the quote please? I recall no such verification. Unless Shae went to them on her own, even if there was no direct threat, there was certainly the implication, which would be more than enough for the Lannisters. Especially considering that Tywin has, multiple times, threatened Tyrion that he'd kill his whore. So the claim that Shae was under no stated or implied threat is a massive assumption and, I'd argue, the far less likely scenario.

According to Cersei's account in the books, Shae was the one who came to her. She confessed that she was Tyrion's whore and agreed to testify against him, in exchange for a castle and a marriage to a knight. Even if Cersei then used coercion to force Shae to go through with it, it's still Shae's fault for going to her in the first place. Prior to that, Cersei had no way of knowing that Shae was anything more than Sansa's maid.

It's worth noting that Sansa's other maids were left unharmed. They were briefly questioned and then released without harm. There's no reason to assume that Shae wouldn't have been treated the same way, had she not decided to tell Cersei about her arrangement with Tyrion.

EDIT: On the TV show, things are different, since Tywin and Cersei found out about Shae's involvement with Tyrion on their own. In that situation, I agree it's possible and even likely that Shae was coerced into testifying against him. But the TV show is hardly reflective of the books, and it also portrayed Tyrion's killing of Shae as a clear-cut case of self-defense.

[Bridgeburners]

According to Cersei's account in the books, Shae was the one who came to her. She confessed that she was Tyrion's whore and agreed to testify against him, in exchange for a castle and a marriage to a knight. Even if Cersei then used coercion to force Shae to go through with it, it's still Shae's fault for going to her in the first place. Prior to that, Cersei had no way of knowing that Shae was anything more than Sansa's maid.

It's worth noting that Sansa's other maids were left unharmed. They were briefly questioned and then released without harm. There's no reason to assume that Shae wouldn't have been treated the same way, had she not decided to tell Cersei about her arrangement with Tyrion.

EDIT: On the TV show, things are different, since Tywin and Cersei found out about Shae's involvement with Tyrion on their own. In that situation, I agree it's possible and even likely that Shae was coerced into testifying against him. But the TV show is hardly reflective of the books, and it also portrayed Tyrion's killing of Shae as a clear-cut case of self-defense.

Okay, but do you have the quote that says that Shae went to them before the trial? I seem to remember something about Cersei not giving her gifts that she promised after the fact, but I don't remember anything about Shae going to her beforehand. I'm guessing no since you had to justify it by mentioning Sansa's other maids and saying that Cersei had no way of knowing. But that's not true, she could have had plenty of ways. Varys could have told her. Or Shae could have broken under Cersei's questioning because she had something to hide and the others didn't. If that were the case, who could blame her when the Red Keep royalty is grilling you with the implied threat of what would happen if you lie. Unless you show me that quote, I think we have no way of knowing.

But like I said, why are we talking about whether or not Shae was justified? This thread is about the discussion of whether or not Tyrion was justified. As I've said before, over and over, which has yet to be addressed, even if Shae did just betray him of her own volition, that doesn't justify his murder one bit.

[joachim]

But the TV show is hardly reflective of the books, and it also portrayed Tyrion's killing of Shae as a clear-cut case of self-defense.

Tyrion charged at her, disarmed her, and strangled her. In what way was that self defense?

[HairGrowsBack]

This has nothing to do with Tyrion's feelings, his life was on the line! And yes, from a moral perspective, it would've been better for her to keep living a life of poverty than to do something that could get another person killed.

Depends if we're talking about the show or the books : in the books, iirc, all she does is saying humiliating things about him, and that's why he kills her (he snaps when she calls him "my giant of Lannister").

Again, I was trying to empathize with her : I expect a good deal of people in her situation would rather "stab a dead man" than return to a precarious life. It's "objectively" wrong, but I understand her motives.

Tyrion charged at her, disarmed her, and strangled her. In what way was that self defense?

If you really think about it, it can be argued that it isn't. He could have walked out and leave it at that. However, the very fact that the writers made her grab a knife shows that they meant for the audience to think that.

[Woman of War]

I do not have the quote either since I won't search my Kindle now but I too am absolutely sure that Shae in the books came to Cersei before the trial in order to ask for her stuff.

In the books too Shae directly accused Tyrion and Sansa of having "plotted it together", of having murdered the king.

[voodooqueen126]

Westeros poverty would be so terrifying... Worse than being poor in Australia, or Europe or even America...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Okay, but do you have the quote that says that Shae went to them before the trial? I seem to remember something about Cersei not giving her gifts that she promised after the fact, but I don't remember anything about Shae going to her beforehand. I'm guessing no since you had to justify it by mentioning Sansa's other maids and saying that Cersei had no way of knowing. But that's not true, she could have had plenty of ways. Varys could have told her. Or Shae could have broken under Cersei's questioning because she had something to hide and the others didn't. If that were the case, who could blame her when the Red Keep royalty is grilling you with the implied threat of what would happen if you lie. Unless you show me that quote, I think we have no way of knowing.

But like I said, why are we talking about whether or not Shae was justified? This thread is about the discussion of whether or not Tyrion was justified. As I've said before, over and over, which has yet to be addressed, even if Shae did just betray him of her own volition, that doesn't justify his murder one bit.

I don't have the quote on me, either, but I wanted to say, having just reread that Cersei chapter recently.....all that Cersei says, or thinks, is how Shae came to her AFTER the testimony, to get the jewels and things that had been hers that were promised, and Cersei is basically congratulating herself and saying no........you must have info on Sansa. Shae leaves in tears, sooooooo, IMO, whatever went down with Cersei and Shae, bookwise, is still not clear. It could have been carrots and sticks, ie........you will say this, this, and this, and I won't kill you, LOL Or, yes, Shae could have went to her first. I wonder why GRRM never makes it clear. I wonder if it will ever be revealed, this question and the questions of Shae and Tywin. All I know from my last read of the chapter is the above and that Cersei notes Shae leaves in tears.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do not have the quote either since I won't search my Kindle now but I too am absolutely sure that Shae in the books came to Cersei before the trial in order to ask for her stuff.

In the books too Shae directly accused Tyrion and Sansa of having "plotted it together", of having murdered the king.

I don't have kindle, just old fashioned books, LOL I'll look again, but....I'm fairly 99% certain that Cersei's only observations about Shae, testimony and jewels are after Shae testifies. I really don't think I'm wrong, but I can check easy, I suppose.

[Chebyshov]

This quote?

She followed them back inside and watched as they bundled the girl up in her father’s bloody blankets. Shae, her name was Shae. They had last spoken the night before the dwarf’s trial by combat, after that smiling Dornish snake offered to champion him. Shae had been asking about some jewels Tyrion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her. The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. “You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?” she had said. Shae left in tears.

EDIT: As a note, that's the only mention of Shae in all of AFFC

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Haha, I'm pretty good, I opened to the page where Cersei is informed about the girl's body and I'm thinking the thoughts about what transpired should follow.

Here we go, I'm a pretty good typist, let's see if I can do the passage without google's help.

Shae, her name was Shae. They had last spoken the night before the dwarf's trial by combat, after that smiling Dornish snake offered to champion him. Shae had been asking about some jewels that Tryion had given her, and certain promises Cersei might have made, a manse in the city and a knight to marry her. The queen made it plain that the whore would have nothing of her until she told them where Sansa Stark had gone. "You were her maid. Do you expect me to believe that you knew nothing of her plans?' she had said. Shae left in tears.

So, the night before trial by combat is after the testimony and Cersei is only referencing a conversation that happened afterward, and unless someone in universe tells us more, we really have no idea how their original meeting a deal came to be, whose idea it was, and or anything along the line of threats made or not made. I was always wondering on the tears and then, of course, Tywin, LOL