From Jon Snow's perspective, does it even matter if R+L=J?

[Nami]

I think he will go through a lot of internal conflict over this before finally come to peace with it

It could be good, he suffered his entire life from not knowing his roots

He'll probably let out one cliche phrase like

"I'm still Ned Stark's son!"

[RhaenysBee]

Well, it does. Since Jon Snow is deadly interested in who his mother is and if he finds out that's Lyanna, he'll have a few questions, since E+L can't really equal J under healthy circumstances. That will get us to who's the father and we are already at L+R, which will probably matter to Jon Snow...

[Nami]

He'll probably think he was born from rape

if he finds out he's Lyanna's son, then obviously Rhaegar is the father, and since people think Rhaegar raped her Jon will think he is the product of rape

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I want him to think Eddard+Lyanna= Him just for a few pages for shits n giggles

[Pikachu101]

He'll probably think he was born from rape

if he finds out he's Lyanna's son, then obviously Rhaegar is the father, and since people think Rhaegar raped her Jon will think he is the product of rape

Unless Howland tells him otherwise :dunno: either way he's still going to see Ned as his true father.

I did mean it might be the only way to unite Westeros against the Others...but I really don't agree with your opinion of his abilities.

I don't know why but I've always hated the idea of everyone uniting under one leader. It sounds way too much like LotR or Narnia for my liking.

I'll accept that he'd make a good king when you can convince me that he's had the training, learning, experience and expertise on kingship. Because so far all I've seen in terms of ruling is him controlling unstable anarchists.

[Veltigar]

He would be a terrible king for the simple reason he doesn't know the first thing about ruling. Just because he can save the realm from the Others doesn't mean he's suddenly qualified to rule and govern a war torn kingdom.

He's had the same training as Robb. So, obviously he had a training fit for a King.

On top of that Jon has been tutored by many of the greatest men in the realm (Ned, Benjen, Tyrion, Qhorin, Jeor, Aemon, Donal, Stannis, Mance, Tormund) even if it was just for a small period at a time.

He’s obviously a visionary leader who cares for the lives of his people (as witnessed by his decision to let the Wildlings in).

He isn’t naïve and he has a good head on his shoulders (e.g. asking for hostages). He isn’t afraid to take action (executing Janos) unlike some leaders (Doran) we have seen so far.

He’s willing to listen to good advice from where ever it comes from and he has an eye for talent that most leaders in Planetos lack (it's a bit like Jaeherys I appointing Septon Barth). Who else would have appointed Satin (a former sex worker) as his steward or which young warrior would befriend Samwell and get him into service? He has the needed military prowess (he’s very good with a sword) and he’s a good commander (and since he had the same training as Robb we could assume that he’s probably a great commander).

He’s also politically savvy basically as LC Jon has shown that he’s able to fulfill half of the positions in his Small Council himself (Master of Coin, Master of Laws, Hand, Master of Whispers). There are numerous examples of this: taking hostages, executing Janos, advising Stannis, arranging the marriage of Alys Karstark, sending Samwell to Oldtown, the fact that he immediately recognizes Mell as Stannis true Queen, his rousing speech in the shield hall, his contract with the banker from Braavos, his understanding of Wildling culture, etc.

The only problem he had so far was that he encountered some incredibly biased and stupid people. If he was King he would have a bigger pond of capable people to recruit from to advise him and he wouldn’t have this problem.

If Jon isn’t fit to rule than who is?

[Trinton07]

Of course it matters to him. So much of his identity is wound up in him being Ned Starks bastard. When Stannis offered him Winterfell he was all "god i've always wanted my father's seat but I knew i couldn't have it cuz im a bastard" The guy was an emotional wreck over the whole thing and it took him forever to make up his mind. Why the hell wouldn't he have an identity crisis when he realizes that he was lied to about his parantage for his entire life. Do you seriously think he'll be like "oh well whatever." Not the John Snow I know bro. To be fair, he did do some maturing throughout ADWD, and is clearly in better shape to take the news than he would've been before. But I think he'll freak out about it still.

[Tharvot]

Which is proof that he doesn't like people who treat him like he's worthless, not that he doesn't like nobility because they are nobility. I'll give you that he doesn't like the Lannister's from the get-go, but even then he ends up befriending Tyrion. This doesn't show anything about his distaste for nobility in general like you claim.

The people who treated him that way were all nobles.

[The Taxman]

Of course it matters to him. So much of his identity is wound up in him being Ned Starks bastard. When Stannis offered him Winterfell he was all "god i've always wanted my father's seat but I knew i couldn't have it cuz im a bastard" The guy was an emotional wreck over the whole thing and it took him forever to make up his mind. Why the hell wouldn't he have an identity crisis when he realizes that he was lied to about his parantage for his entire life. Do you seriously think he'll be like "oh well whatever." Not the John Snow I know bro. To be fair, he did do some maturing throughout ADWD, and is clearly in better shape to take the news than he would've been before. But I think he'll freak out about it still.

Well yeah but will the story change in any way shape or form? Jon Snow belongs at the wall and he relishes it. He's not going to go and chase his birthright.

[Pikachu101]

He's had the same training as Robb. So, obviously he had a training fit for a King.

No, he had training fit for a Warden of the North. Robb was a terrible king, good battle commander but terrible king nonetheless.

On top of that Jon has been tutored by many of the greatest men in the realm (Ned, Benjen, Tyrion, Qhorin, Jeor, Aemon, Donal, Stannis, Mance, Tormund) even if it was just for a small period at a time.

Tyrion gave him a simple word of advice, that's hardly tutoring.

Ned: the most clueless man in the seven kingdoms. He would be a brilliant tutor if Jon's goal was to be Lord of Winterfell, but king? Not really, no.

Benjen: we hardly know him and any informed advice he could give to Jon about ruling.

Jeor: what does he know exactly about ruling?

Mance, Qhorin and Tormund: a bunch of unstable anarchists who don't realise they're fighting a lost cause. Hardly good tutors are they, unless of course Jon is going to be King of the Wildlings.

Stannis: Jon helped him more than he helped Jon

He’s obviously a visionary leader who cares for the lives of his people (as witnessed by his decision to let the Wildlings in).

So was Dany, no good being a visionary if you can't see reality. Dany refused to recognise the anger of the nobility, just like Jon ignored the annoyance of the NWs.

He isn’t naïve and he has a good head on his shoulders (e.g. asking for hostages). He isn’t afraid to take action (executing Janos) unlike some leaders (Doran) we have seen so far.

Doran's practical, Dorne couldn't win a war without allies and he knew it.

As for hostages and execution those are things all noble children are taught. It's hardly evidence to show he'd be a good king.

He has the needed military prowess (he’s very good with a sword) and he’s a good commander (and since he had the same training as Robb we could assume that he’s probably a great commander).

When did being a good military commander make you a good ruler?

By all means Robert should have been an amazing ruler if it all it takes is to be good with a sword.

He’s also politically savvy basically as LC Jon has shown that he’s able to fulfill half of the positions in his Small Council himself (Master of Coin, Master of Laws, Hand, Master of Whispers).

Saying NWs politics is on the same level as KL politics is like saying a primary teacher is on the same level as a university lecturer.

There are numerous examples of this: taking hostages, executing Janos

Robb took hostages and executed traitors, didn't change the fact that he was absolutely clueless. He was just doing what Ned had taught him to do, same goes for Jon.

advising Stannis

He advised Stannis on how to win the North's support and the geography of the region. Politics, especially the politics on KL's level never played a part.

arranging the marriage of Alys Karstark

Negotiating a marriage doesn't show political acumen, it just shows he can negotiate a marriage between a runaway and a wildling.

sending Samwell to Oldtown

To become a Maester because the NWs needs one. That's more common sense than political acumen.

the fact that he immediately recognizes Mell as Stannis true Queen

So did everyone else, is everyone political masterminds now?

his rousing speech in the shield hall

A nice speech, something you'd expect from a man who had the same training as the heir to Winterfell. Don't see how it shows acumen though?

his contract with the banker from Braavos

I'll give you that but honestly that's not exactly rocket science is it? The only one dumb enough to anger the bank is Cersei; and she's on a whole other level.

his understanding of Wildling culture

He understands anarchists, could he understand ruthless, sly backstabbers?

If he was King he would have a bigger pond of capable people to recruit from to advise him and he wouldn’t have this problem.

Who would these people be exactly? Jon knows no one in KL or anyone who could be of any use to him. Players would take one look at him and know he's weak; he doesn't even know what the GoT is.

If Jon isn’t fit to rule than who is?

People that can rule, govern, understand politics and haven't spent their whole adult life up in the Wall where no understanding of ruling is needed.

[Veltigar]

No, he had training fit for a Warden of the North. Robb was a terrible king, good battle commander but terrible king nonetheless.

The training to become Lord of WF is in no way different from the training to become a King. In fact in many ways it even seems to be more thorough. Joffrey wasn’t educated to become a King (for instance the fact that he sucked at sword fighting), Tommen is kept away from learning knightly skills. We learn nothing about the princes getting any sort of ruler specific teaching. But with Jon and Robb we know that they both were taught to wield sword and lance, they knew there heraldry, they were taught the customs of the people they rule, they were learned how to plan a war and fight a battle, they were learned that their obligation as a Lord lay with their people, etc.

Robb would probably have been a good KitN in peacetime (even though he’s a good battle commander) if he had the time to mature. He was a terrible King during wartime because his cock together with the ghost of his father’s dedication to honor that haunted him made him marry with the wrong person.

Jon is a totally different animal. He chose against his cock for the sake of his people and unlike Robb, Jon primary motivation is not his honor but his sense of duty. It’s the sense of duty that makes him far more dangerous to his enemies.

Tyrion gave him a simple word of advice, that's hardly tutoring.

Tyrion gave Jon Snow a valuable life lesson, which he has taken to heart. Maybe it wasn’t directly related to the techniques of ruling but it certainly informed Jon’s general attitude towards ruling. An attitude which is at least as important as your training. If you don’t believe me than believe Varys. His whole speech to Kevan Lannister about the perfect King (one small problem that he’s a Blackfyre notwithstanding) was about how Faegon would understand the plight of the common people. And Jon understands what is truly important. In fact if you compare Varys ideal King speech with Jons live than it’s almost a perfect match.

Ned: the most clueless man in the seven kingdoms. He would be a brilliant tutor if Jon's goal was to be Lord of Winterfell, but king? Not really, no.

If Ned had been King instead of Robert do you really think that things could have gone dramatically wrong? Ned would have banished Varys and he would have never let LF rise to his position as master of coin. Ned was only such a bad player because he was dropped in a very toxic and hostile environment. If Ned had had the time to build his own court than he would have been a good King.

Additionally Tywin Lannister one of the most brilliant rulers of his time was equally taken aback by the toxic environment that KL had become. That’s why he eventually winded up dead.

Benjen: we hardly know him and any informed advice he could give to Jon about ruling.

You don’t become First Ranger of the NW if you are without skill. The NW makes a point about that and so did Uncle Benjen. He (alongside Donal Nooye and the Old Bear) imprinted the idea in Jons head that the worth of a man is what should decide his position in life and not his birth. This is the best lesson you can ever get as a ruler and the NW is the pinnacle of that ideal. This greatly determines Jons attitude towards his subordinates in general and it makes him see the value in people like Samwell and Satin. In return Jons faith in these men is reciprocated by their determination to serve him in anyway the can.

Jeor: what does he know exactly about ruling?

He’s LC of the NW. He has to equip, train and lead an army. He has policy decisions to make about supplies, trade, loans, border protection, maintenance. He needs to select people to become officers of the NW. He needs to dispense justice upon his men (who do you think would hold the sword if a NW deserter is caught by the actual NW). He also decides about diplomacy (negotiations with Craster, the sending of Benjen to WF, giving Waymar a command to appease him and his father) and as LC he even makes political decision (like keeping Cottar Pyke and Dennis Mallister apart).

[Veltigar]

Mance, Qhorin and Tormund: a bunch of unstable anarchists who don't realise they're fighting a lost cause. Hardly good tutors are they, unless of course Jon is going to be King of the Wildlings.

1) Qhorin is not a wildling he’s a ranger of the NW. And he – like all Jons NW affiliated tutors – learns him the value of duty and self-sacrifice.

2) Mance and Tormund learned Jon how to create bonds of loyalty between him and his followers. The things Jon learns from them (which would make him a great King of the Wildings) would also make him a better King on the IT. Because the value of both Tormund’s and Mance’s advice boils down to this: Know your people, know who they are, know what they stand and fight for.

He’s also picked up something’s from them both. For instance the value of a rousing speech, the power of intimidation ( Mance had to defeat all other war chiefs before he was recognized as top dog. Jon showing the supposed strength of the NW by disguising his men) and even deceit (Tormund lies that somehow boost his reputation, Jon sending Mance’s son away while pretending that he’s still there).

Stannis: Jon helped him more than he helped Jon

Again what Jon learned from Stannis is the power to listen. Stannis listens to all advice and didn’t dismiss Jons advice because he was young, a bastard and the brother of a usurper. Stannis also learns Jon yet again that loyalty and skills are far more important than birth to get acces to power.

Jons interaction with Stannis and later on Selyse also shows that Jon has very good diplomatic and negotiating skills which he can home thanks to them. With Stannis Jon also learns that a good working relationship between two individuals/factions/organization is very much in the realm of possibilities. With other words thanks to Stannis Jon learns the value of cooperation and compromise to reach common goals.

So was Dany, no good being a visionary if you can't see reality. Dany refused to recognise the anger of the nobility, just like Jon ignored the annoyance of the NWs.

Jon recognized the annoyance of a small fraction of the NW. The way you phrase it it’s like the whole goddamn NW ganged up on him to shank him but that’s untrue. It was a very small group of utterly moronic, delusional and biased NW men who went for Jon. The biggest mistake Jon had here was that didn’t have Ghost nor another form of bodyguard with him. If he had paid more attention to what Mel said (and if he hadn’t been distracted and concerned about the major drama and diplomatic nightmare that was happening right in front of him) than none of those traitorous bastards could have got to him.

A little bit of topic but “so was Dany” she’s still is a visionary leader! But she lacked the good advice Jon had. And Dany did recognize the anger of the nobility, that’s why she asked for hostages and married Hizzie. Her mistake was that after the mass execution she went soft on them and that after the execution she lost her momentum. And actually thanks to an incredible stroke of luck that loss of momentum has worked out for her (Pale mare has destroyed Yunkai’s army, the enemy sellswords are fighting amongst each other, Victarion has arrived, She rode Drogon for the first time, the only capable Yunkish general was killed, Ser Barristan grew some balls and has more than tripled his value to her cause. And she’ll probably get even more out of it)

Doran's practical, Dorne couldn't win a war without allies and he knew it.

No, Doran is a pussy. I’m not talking about Doran not going to war that was actually a good decision. I’m talking about the fact that he was to chicken to share his plot with his daughter, I’m talking about the fact that he had a deal to marry Arianne to Viserys and didn’t do anything to make sure that Viserys and Dany were safe.

As for hostages and execution those are things all noble children are taught. It's hardly evidence to show he'd be a good king.

So what you are saying is that there is no real difference between the training of a prince and the training of someone who’ll be a lord someday. That contradicts your first point.

When did being a good military commander make you a good ruler?

In that society, being a good military commander is a huge plus for any ruler. You could be the best administrator in the world for all they care but if you aren’t able to enforce your decisions and protect your holdings than you can’t do shit.

By all means Robert should have been an amazing ruler if it all it takes is to be good with a sword.

You know perfectly well that that wasn’t what I was implying. The nobility in Westeros has a very militaristic attitude. They want a warrior King, not a bookish slob. Remember the Blackfyre rebellion? A huge part of Daemons appeal was that he was an almost perfect warrior backed up by other strong warriors (fireball, Redtusk, Bittersteel, …).

So is being a good fighter essential to being a good ruler? No, not at all but it makes things easier because the nobility and even the general populace will be positively biased towards you. Your image as a warrior helps you to be seen as a strong King. The same has happened in the real world again and again. Commanders who never actually fought but commanded from the rear are depicted as super soldiers because it’s good PR.

A King who is good with a sword (killing a few famous enemies and winning some tournaments) will have it easier to attract people to his cause and inspire loyalty.

[Veltigar]

Saying NWs politics is on the same level as KL politics is like saying a primary teacher is on the same level as a university lecturer.

1) If all your primary teachers sucked than you would never get into a university. Training is everything.

2) Look at what Jon has done. He has negotiated a contract with the Braavosi Banker. In KL his Master of Coin would do that, but as the books have shown us, if you have no idea about finances than you can’t control your Master of Coin and he can start do things on his own. Jon has the capacities to control his Master of Coin himself and keep him in check if the need should ever arise.

As LC Jon is responsible for dispensing justice, upholding old NW rules and make new ones. The same task as a master of Laws.

As a hand you rule the Kingdoms. As a LC you rule a huge chunk of the north and your own order. Jon gains a lot of experience which he can use when he’s King.

As LC Jon gets intelligence reports from his rangers and he uses those to plan out policy. As a King he would have a Master of Whispers but again he should be able to listen to those reports himself and make a judgment without stupidly going along with their advice.

Robb took hostages and executed traitors, didn't change the fact that he was absolutely clueless. He was just doing what Ned had taught him to do, same goes for Jon.

Robb taking Jaime hostage was hardly clueless. It was one of his greatest successes, he should have guarded him better though. He did fuck up whit the executing of traitors I’ll give you that, but you are blatantly wrong with your reason why he did it.

He wasn’t just “doing what Ned had taught him to do”. Robb tried to live up to the ideal that his father represented in his mind. Sadly, Robb did not understand Eddard Stark at all. Ned would have never married Jeyne and he would have handled the entire Karstark situation drastically different (more like Stannis). Robb thought that his father stood for honor above all, which is blatantly wrong (the lies about Jons parentage and Ned right before his execution lying about his intentions and Joffrey true parentage to save Sansa) show that.

Jon is much more mature than Robb and I think he understands his father better than Robb ever did.

He advised Stannis on how to win the North's support and the geography of the region. Politics, especially the politics on KL's level never played a part.

Telling Stannis how to win the North’s support is advising him about politics. It’s basic understanding of the people you govern mixed with a few universal ruling strategies (flattery, bribery, tribute to their values, inspiring them to fight for your cause, …).

On top of that it was also political advise because it was in Jons best interest that Stannis gets his men and defeats the Boltons since Stannis is his biggest ally (and because the Boltons will feel threatened by a son of Eddard Starks and they would never support the watch). By telling Stannis how to win his war, Jon also ensure that the Wildings may remain at the wall. These Wildlings can do much good alongside the wall (but in Stannis army they would die in dozens).

Negotiating a marriage doesn't show political acumen, it just shows he can negotiate a marriage between a runaway and a wildling.

By marrying Sigorn to Alys Jon shows political acumen because

1) Alys gets her own private army of about 200 Thenns. She can use that private army to go back to Karborg and take the castle (if she had gone their alone they would have just locked her up). Jon gains a valuable ally who’ll have his back no matter what, while at the same time weakening the hostile Bolton alliance.

2) By arranging the marriage between Sigorn and Alys Jon is able to appease Sigorn, who didn’t really get along with Jon thanks to the death of father. He’s also able to give a potential threat (200 well armed Thenns) a new goal which will make them fall in line.

3) The union between Alys and Sigorn symbolizes the new reality in which the North lives in. Wildlings and Northmen stand together now, united against a common foe. This marriage strategy helps to bridge the river of blood between Northmen and Wildlings and bind them to a common cause.

To become a Maester because the NWs needs one. That's more common sense than political acumen.

1) You would be surprised how often common sense and political acumen overlap (Answer: almost all the time).

2) Sending Sam to Oldtown is smart because he already knows what they are up against. Jon could easily ask for a new Maester, but Sam is dedicated to his cause (which ensures that he’s loyal to Jon and Jons plans) and in Oldtown he can search the old documents there for information about the White Walkers. He might also try and convince other Maesters to join him.

Tarly is an old name. Randyll might despise Sam, but Sam still holds his influential name. Sam could use that to get access to certain circles a normal recruit wouldn’t get into and also to climb the ladder more quickly.

So did everyone else, is everyone political masterminds now?

Not everybody else knows that.

A nice speech, something you'd expect from a man who had the same training as the heir to Winterfell. Don't see how it shows acumen though?

1) Again a compliment towards the training of an heir to WF? My my look at your first point again (also I don’t think that anyone in the realm is actively trained in giving speeches with the exception of bards/)

2) It shows acumen because Jon knows what to say to get them on his side. Even if he was the best speaker in the world if he didn’t know what to say to them they would not have flocked to him.

[Veltigar]

I'll give you that but honestly that's not exactly rocket science is it? The only one dumb enough to anger the bank is Cersei; and she's on a whole other level.

I wasn’t talking about understanding the consequences of giving the Iron Bank the finger. I was referring to Jon actively deciding to take the opportunity and negotiate a contract between the NW and the Iron Bank of Braavos. How many of the leaders we have seen so far would do that?

He understands anarchists, could he understand ruthless, sly backstabbers?

1) The concept of anarchism isn’t really suited to talk about Wildling culture

2) I think he does, seeing that he’s able to improvise and adapt to every other situation he’s ever been thrown in. Jon is noted as being the most observant of the Starks thanks to his Bastard upbringing (look at his thought during the feast in WF) and he’s a bit of a backstabber himself (betrayal of the Wildlings). He’ll do just fine.

3) Another thing is do they understand Jon and does Jon need to understand them? Because if Jon becomes King the whole small council and the court in general would look a lot different than it looks today.

Who would these people be exactly? Jon knows no one in KL or anyone who could be of any use to him. Players would take one look at him and know he's weak; he doesn't even know what the GoT is.

1) Jon would recruit from every rank of society. He would punish every form of corruption or playing of the game that is not beneficial to the realm. Jon is also more observant than you give him credit for. He would not fall so easily in Varys and LF traps. And again Jon has an eye for capable people. He came to the NW and to the Wildlings without knowing anyone but Benjen and Ygritte. But still he was able to build up a successful command that was able to coordinate the complex operation of rebuilding and restaffing of the NW fortresses

2) Jon knows what the Game is. He played it himself with Ser Alliser Thorne, Janos Slynt, Mance Rayder, Tormund and Stannis. A more limited scale, but the stakes were as high as in KL.

People that can rule, govern, understand politics and haven't spent their whole adult life up in the Wall where no understanding of ruling is needed.

I’m not going to refute this baloney again. You do need understanding of ruling to govern the Wall. See all of the above.

[Pikachu101]

I can't believe people actually think Jon can play the GoT :rolleyes:

[David Selig]

I wasn’t talking about understanding the consequences of giving the Iron Bank the finger. I was referring to Jon actively deciding to take the opportunity and negotiate a contract between the NW and the Iron Bank of Braavos. How many of the leaders we have seen so far would do that?

All of them? When the alternative is death of starvation, arranging a loan when a represantitive of the biggest bank in the world conveniently shows up just at the right moment, is a no-brainer.

1) Jon would recruit from every rank of society. He would punish every form of corruption or playing of the game that is not beneficial to the realm. Jon is also more observant than you give him credit for. He would not fall so easily in Varys and LF traps. And again Jon has an eye for capable people. He came to the NW and to the Wildlings without knowing anyone but Benjen and Ygritte. But still he was able to build up a successful command that was able to coordinate the complex operation of rebuilding and restaffing of the NW fortresses.

Nothing says "successful" as clearly as being assassinated by your own top lieutenants only months after becoming a leader. :cool4:

[The guy from the Vale]

I can't believe people actually think Jon can play the GoT :rolleyes:

And you are still assuming Jon will have to play the game in its current form when after the Ice Zombie Apocalypse none of the current players will be alive. Once the main players aren't LF and Varys but Sansa and Sam, for example, the game being played will be very different in its toxicity.

[Morienthar]

I can't believe people actually think Jon can play the GoT :rolleyes:

Who says the game will remain the same.

[Pikachu101]

And you are still assuming Jon will have to play the game in its current form when after the Ice Zombie Apocalypse none of the current players will be alive.

Jon should stick to the North and saving Westeros from the Others. He doesn't belong in the South with its manipulation, deceit and ruthless politics.

The players change but the game stays. Just because Varys and LF die doesn't mean the GoT is going to end. There'll be another batch of players waiting for their chance to strike

Once the main players aren't LF and Varys but Sansa and Sam, for example, the game being played will be very different in its toxicity.

Sam, really?

Sansa's one person, there's so many more players and they're going to be just as toxic as their predecessors.

Who says the game will remain the same.

The players change but the game stays; Jon doesn't belong in the South and the GoT

[Morienthar]

The players change but the game stays; Jon doesn't belong in the South and the GoT

The Game will stay it doesn't need to stay the same though,everything changes even the Game of Thrones.

This is assuming that there's actually a Throne to squabble over.