Dany wouldn't be hated if GRRM had kept the 5-year gap

[Parwan]

That's an important point. Dany doesn't view her time in Meereen as merely experimental. Discussions of "learning to rule" are thematic and structural. AFFC/ADWD are built around the three POV characters who are experimenting with governing. But those discussions don't go to the actual thoughts and goals of the characters themselves. Cersei doesn't think to herself "Now let's see if I can handle the power I've groped for my whole life" and Jon doesn't think "I hope my time as Lord Commander prepares me for some future unexpected leadership role." It might be true that GRRM has pulled a Peter Griffin and told Meereen that it is a "practice kingdom." But the fact that we know Meereen represents a learning experience does not automatically lead to judgments of Dany as a character.

You said it better than I did. Thank you.

[Parwan]

Question.

Why is it always necessary to turn every single conversation into Stannis vs Dany, because I really do rather like both characters and reading this thread is just an exercise in masochism because I disagree with ALL OF THE CRITICISMS.

*throws a table*

...

Oh Lala, Red Rahloo is going to get you! You are trying to derail the entire "badass debate," and this cannot be allowed. Look to your sins. For these threads are fierce and full of insults!

[Rhaegarsjoy]

I think you need more than 5 years to stop ppl hating on Dany.

[PirateDuchess]

It's kinda funny to use Fire and Blood as a joke since it's the best words from a House EVER. It just reminds me how much of a badass Dany is.

Not sure if troll or serious.

[Petyr Patter]

I remember disliking Denaerys in Game of Thrones, so a 5 year gap or not doesn't really change much.

1. She just does nothing I can relate to. Contrast her to Sansa, who I do like quite a bit. Since Clash of Kings, Sansa can be described as "trying to go home and be reunited with her family." This, even when the love of dresses and the crushes on Loras are not, I find her motivations very relatable. Dany's ultimate goal to conquer Westeros for the Targaryen dynasty. Targaryens in A Song of Ice and Fire don't have good publicity. Even the much loved Rhaegar essentially abandoned his wife and children to pursue a love affair with a younger woman.
   
2. She isn't a Stark. I like pretty much all the Starks, except Arya has really taken a turn for the worse in the House of BLack and White, but that is for another thread. Anyways, I want to read about the Starks and hopefully see them overcome their trials. Time spent on Dany is time not spent on the Starks. And here's the rub, as bad as a life as she has had, the Stark's have had it worse. Dany just keeps getting gifts from her fairy godmother: dragons, an army, and finally a small city-state kingdom to rule. The Starks just keep getting killed, or kidnapped, and keep drifting futher and further apart. Dany walks into a giant fire, and comes out alive and ahead with 3 dragons. Speaking of which...
   
3. She burned Mirri alive. Immolation is a very cruel way to kill someone. Should she be forgiven because Mirri "tricked" her? What we have is a rape victim trying to prevent more of the same, admittedly by killing an unborn child. Though Mirri did so because Dany insisted, despite everyone around her telling her it was a terrible idea. I just can't look at Dany the same way after this.
   
4. Finally, there is the problem that her entire story could have been removed and events in Westeros wouldn't have changed much. At least in the a Game of Thrones you have Robert taking a super active interest in her. His poisoner spurs her assissination attempt, which encourages Drogo to actively pursue invading Westeros. Starting in Clash, she's just a rumor and a depositing ground for characters fleeing Westeros.
   

So, no, the 5 year gap or lack thereof had very little to do with me liking of not liking Dany.

[Nictarion]

So an opinion is untrue? Got it.

Good, I'm glad.

[Toxspecific]

NOTHING says badass like chillin on your throne dreaming of Daario while your city goes to hell, SO BADASS. Or throwing a tempter tantrum whenever somebody doubts you, BUT I'M BLOOD OF THE DRAGON, FIRE AND BLOOD AND CAPS LOCK AND NOT INDOOR VOICES!!! So Badass.

Why have I not seen more of your posts on the forums?

As for people not hating Dany, guys Rees plenty of reason to dislike or hate her. Se is narrow minded, she learns slowly, she gets plot gifts like hell, everybody around her in Essos is made to look like a bunch of evil nut jobs waiting to be conquered so her conquest seems justified, she bores the crap out of you with her repetitive sequence of inner thoughts.

Lots of reasons. Genuine reasons. Dany hate, barring the she is Aerys level insane stuff, is very justified. There's a reason guys like me liked her in the first book, or first to books, then started resenting her for her boring character development and storyline.

If a character is dull or very simple, of a settled personality and just too normal t read about, they require a very fast paced intense storyline to make up for it. Dany doesn't have that. In part due to her own actions.

ETA: just saw some post about Stannis. Guys, of course he is more badass than Dany. He is a veteran not a child. And come up with better jabs than using the red god, seeing as its kind of made obvious that for the most times Stannis just doesn't give a shit about the red god?

[danm_999]

Well, I can't speak for other people, but an extra five years in Meereen wouldn't have fixed the fundamental problem I have with Daenerys' character; she doesn't have reasonably attainable and clearly articulated long term goals.

Almost every other 'ruler' in the series tends to be the opposite. They know what they're aiming for, and many even have some pretty good ideas about how they're going to get there. Hell, even some of the non-POV rulers like Stannis I can tell you more concisely what they're trying to achieve than I can Daenerys, and she has been a major POV since AGoT.

[PatrickStormborn]

Considering that Dany's popularity took a sharp turn for the worse following ADwD, I think it's pretty obvious that the five year gap would have helped... particularly as Dany would have landed in Westeros in the original five year gap ADwD. Huge reasons for disliking Dany include Daario, Meereen, and not being in Westeros. These would not be problems if the five year gap had remained.

However, would there still be readers who dislike her? Of course. She's a controversial, grey character.

1. She isn't a Stark. I like pretty much all the Starks, except Arya has really taken a turn for the worse in the House of BLack and White, but that is for another thread. Anyways, I want to read about the Starks and hopefully see them overcome their trials. Time spent on Dany is time not spent on the Starks. And here's the rub, as bad as a life as she has had, the Stark's have had it worse. Dany just keeps getting gifts from her fairy godmother: dragons, an army, and finally a small city-state kingdom to rule. The Starks just keep getting killed, or kidnapped, and keep drifting futher and further apart. Dany walks into a giant fire, and comes out alive and ahead with 3 dragons. Speaking of which...
   

Actually, the Starks are currently around the same point Dany was at the beginning of AGoT: orphans with little/no family (Jon believes Arya is alive, Sansa and Arya know Jon is alive, Bran knows they are all alive, etc.) ... luckily they were also not being abused by their one remaining family member, and were also not sold into a marriage where they started as little more than a slave.

But Dany faced all that for a much longer period of time than the Starks did. What the Stark children are going through now for a year or two at most, Dany went through for around 8-10 years (between leaving the House with the Red Door and falling in love with Drogo).

[C0bR]

I hate her mainly for pre-gap stuff anyway...

[Isalie]

Actually, the Starks are currently around the same point Dany was at the beginning of AGoT: orphans with little/no family (Jon believes Arya is alive, Sansa and Arya know Jon is alive, Bran knows they are all alive, etc.) ... luckily they were also not being abused by their one remaining family member, and were also not sold into a marriage where they started as little more than a slave.

But Dany faced all that for a much longer period of time than the Starks did. What the Stark children are going through now for a year or two at most, Dany went through for around 8-10 years (between leaving the House with the Red Door and falling in love with Drogo).

That's pretty much her only redeeming quality, and it will be interesting to see where it takes her, empty victory when she finally finds out that there are no red doors in Westeros?

[direwienerdog]

Personally I can't wait for Stannis to become a POV. I would love to see how he views things. I have a feeling all the whining that Dany's does will be monumentally eclipsed by Stannis.

He is described as being like iron, strong, unbending, but brittle.

All Stan fans know he will die. They foresee him going out in a blaze of glory, saving Westeros,killing the great Other.

I hope you are right, but don't inflexible thing just shatter?

[The Great Walrus]

Personally I can't wait for Stannis to become a POV. I would love to see how he views things. I have a feeling all the whining that Dany's does will be monumentally eclipsed by Stannis.

He is described as being like iron, strong, unbending, but brittle.

All Stan fans know he will die. They foresee him going out in a blaze of glory, saving Westeros,killing the great Other.

I hope you are right, but don't inflexible thing just shatter?

The only problem with that is not only has Martin confirmed that there will be no new POVs in Winds, but he also made it clear that he will never give a King a pov.

[Toxspecific]

I'm fine ith Stannis not becoming a POV ever. The guy isn't that conflicted inside like some Stanstans say. He is pretty damn solid a character, his service to the books is more the way he catalyses big events (making battles happen etc), not the fascination he induces in readers the way Jaime or Theon do. Stannis is still very interesting a guy, but IMO he doesn't need a POV.

[wargalicious]

I prefer my characters to be big breasted. thus, I abhor Stannis.

[direwienerdog]

The only problem with that is not only has Martin confirmed that there will be no new POVs in Winds, but he also made it clear that he will never give a King a pov.

Thanks TGW I had not heard that. Is that current kings or.... some Jon will be KitN fans will be disappointed?

[direwienerdog]

I'm fine ith Stannis not becoming a POV ever. The guy isn't that conflicted inside like some Stanstans say. He is pretty damn solid a character, his service to the books is more the way he catalyses big events (making battles happen etc), not the fascination he induces in readers the way Jaime or Theon do. Stannis is still very interesting a guy, but IMO he doesn't need a POV.

I guess that's where I differ with Stannis fans. I don't find him to be interesting at least not like fans do. He does make lots of action happen and bless him for that.

I find him personally to have a overinflated opinion of himself and he seems condescending to others. Might be that's what some people like but....

[Roland Deschain of Gilead]

I prefer my characters to be big breasted. thus, I abhor Stannis.

There's a distinct lack of Big Breasted PoV in asoiaf.

Sam, is pretty much the only one I know of. And thats really not cool.

[Bad Karma]

My problem with her isn't coming from ADwD, didn't read it yet.

The problem might not even be her overall chracterization, but my problem with her is that she isn't achieving anything through hard work, blood and tears and her own work. I thought she was a likeable character up until the point she got her dragons, okay mostly after she reached Qarth.

Because every cruel guys suddenly starts feeling honest and don't know how to steal 3 dragons from a defenceless Daenerys. How she got the Unsullied was one of the worst written things i've ever read.

And the really bad thing is, that she got confident and all cocky just because of her whole luck. Not because she herself developed any skills or anything. No, just because she got lucky. She's the new rich lottery millionaire who's telling everyone how she is great beyond measure...

That doesn't mean i hate her. But it means i will hardly like her if she'd ever become queen of Westeros.