LIttlefinger: book vs show

[LordStoneheart]

Now that you mention all those scenes together, PS, I understand the criticism of showFinger more. I still don't particularly dislike it because I never liked the character to begin with and throughout the books, but your analysis is pretty good.

If he balanced between his slooowww smooooothhh eeeevvillll voice.... to his regular voice like when being awarded Harrenhal it would be much more convincing.

[Nilan8888]

Littlefinger is one of the characters the show doesn't really get right. Stannis is another. I think the primary reason is that these are two characters that don't have a well-realized archetype.

Littlefinger is a "scheming advisor". Problem is, we already have at least TWO OTHER scheming advisors: Pycelle and Varys. I think the primary differences in how the show id Littlefinger are:

1. His motives are given MUCH earlier than in the books. He flies under the radar more and is less obvious about what he does.

2. The whorehouse connection is not nearly so strong. The show, literally, has Littlefinger's office in a whorehouse. In the show, whorehouses are just one aspect of what Littlefinger does, and frankly I think it only really comes up in the first book when he's hiding Catelyn. He just has strong connections with whorehouses and owns some that others run. Meanwhile in the show he doubles as a pimp.

[LordStoneheart]

Littlefinger is one of the characters the show doesn't really get right. Stannis is another.

I've seen no difference in showStan than bookStan other than Stephen Dillane giving a more emotional performance than bookStan ever can.

[Colonel Green]

2. The whorehouse connection is not nearly so strong. The show, literally, has Littlefinger's office in a whorehouse. In the show, whorehouses are just one aspect of what Littlefinger does, and frankly I think it only really comes up in the first book when he's hiding Catelyn. He just has strong connections with whorehouses and owns some that others run. Meanwhile in the show he doubles as a pimp.

One of big reasons I'm looking forward to the Vale stuff is that he'll finally be removed from acting like a pimp who moonlights as finance minister.

[Nilan8888]

I've seen no difference in showStan than bookStan other than Stephen Dillane giving a more emotional performance than bookStan ever can.

There's the fact that Melisandre is the one to explicitly save Davos, rather than Stannis making the deicsion to look the other way. He's much more on board with her religion than in the books.

[Fightbringer]

i think that there is a difference between some book characters and show characters (stannis, thoros, margaery tyrell are all names that come to mind) but i agree with OP, people saying this about littlefinger is something i dont get. First of all, think about all the stuff he does in the books, he manipulates lysa's emotions for him ridiculously to get himself where he wants to go, using that to murder the hand of the king, and then later on betrays ned stark as well to save his own skin. If you add that stuff with the dagger, all of this was just part of an elaborate scheme to start a huge war where thousands upon thousands will have died by the end, all for the purpose of moving himself up the ladder of power. I havent even brought up the fact that he murdered his own wife yet, or is currently attempting to live out a creepy childhood fantasy through sansa, as well as scheming to murder his stepson, who is a child. Against all of this, murdering a 14 year old king (Joffrey) at his own wedding feast seems like his finest act. Littlefinger may have commited the most evil deeds of any man in westeros, and be indirectly responsible for the deaths of the most too.

However, for all that, he isnt evil (only ramsay and perhaps joffrey really are in both books and show imo) he is just only looking out for himself, he is simply a slightly extreme version of what most medieval lords were in real life. I think this comes across well in the show actually, I definitely had this impression by the time I reached the end of season 1 (I hadnt read the books at that point) and I also think unsullied will currently believe that too as the whole creepy aspect of LF and Sansa hasn't really come across fully yet, it just seems like he's trying to do catelyn a good turn. Granted, what happened to Ros in the show may be regarded as evil by many, but I think its more for other reasons,

a ) that he is ruthless, he will always try and get the best out of a situation for himself no matter what the outcome for others involved, and this was the best way to recoup his investment.

b ) LF doesnt want anyone betraying him, so he has to make an example of her too everyone. Tywin ordered terrible things to be done to the Reynes, and later on Vargo Hoat in the books, and I've never heard anyone define him as evil.

[Le Cygne]

One of big reasons I'm looking forward to the Vale stuff is that he'll finally be removed from acting like a pimp who moonlights as finance minister.

No more pimp scenes! Whatever will they do to introduce random naked prostitutes into the story. Maybe he'll take some with him.

[Colonel Green]

i think that there is a difference between some book characters and show characters (stannis, thoros, margaery tyrell are all names that come to mind) but i agree with OP, people saying this about littlefinger is something i dont get. First of all, think about all the stuff he does in the books, he manipulates lysa's emotions for him ridiculously to get himself where he wants to go, using that to murder the hand of the king, and then later on betrays ned stark as well to save his own skin. If you add that stuff with the dagger, all of this was just part of an elaborate scheme to start a huge war where thousands upon thousands will have died by the end, all for the purpose of moving himself up the ladder of power. I havent even brought up the fact that he murdered his own wife yet, or is currently attempting to live out a creepy childhood fantasy through sansa, as well as scheming to murder his stepson, who is a child. Against all of this, murdering a 14 year old king (Joffrey) at his own wedding feast seems like his finest act. Littlefinger may have commited the most evil deeds of any man in westeros, and be indirectly responsible for the deaths of the most too.

People aren't saying that he's morally worse in the show, they're saying that he's too obviously evil.

[binga]

Viewers will be super shocked about Lysa and LF. Everyone still thinks Cersei killed Jon Arryn. It's not obvious at all.

Cersei could own Littlefinger any number of times in the books if she wanted. She just didn't because he wasnt bold enough to threaten her with the Twincest knowledge. Yet she still doesn't actually do anything since she knows he needs him, a fact that he also knows, and she's arrogant enough to think she can control him, another fact that he's aware of.

Although I didn't really like his actions either in that scene, I think they could've made him less panicky and more cocky that her threats were idle, such as maintaining that smug grin through the threat.

To tell you the truth I doubt anyone who has only been watching the show even remembers who Jon Arryn was. They will have to reintroduce that plot point somehow.

[GoldenVale]

Littlefinger is one of the characters the show doesn't really get right. Stannis is another. I think the primary reason is that these are two characters that don't have a well-realized archetype.

Littlefinger is a "scheming advisor". Problem is, we already have at least TWO OTHER scheming advisors: Pycelle and Varys. I think the primary differences in how the show id Littlefinger are:

1. His motives are given MUCH earlier than in the books. He flies under the radar more and is less obvious about what he does.

2. The whorehouse connection is not nearly so strong. The show, literally, has Littlefinger's office in a whorehouse. In the show, whorehouses are just one aspect of what Littlefinger does, and frankly I think it only really comes up in the first book when he's hiding Catelyn. He just has strong connections with whorehouses and owns some that others run. Meanwhile in the show he doubles as a pimp.

To be fair the "pimp" aspect does come into some importance later in the books. Not really IMPORTANT but it did give us a clearer view of certain things about him.

I've seen no difference in showStan than bookStan other than Stephen Dillane giving a more emotional performance than bookStan ever can.

I think what most book readers hate about the show Stannis is how obvious they made him. His obsessive sense of justice and duty doesn't seem as clear in the show as does the fact that he thinks the whole world screwed him one way or another. He's unhappy and stubborn and despite all that still conflicted These things are what strike us the most about him throughout the books.

One example that I personally had a problem with was the fact the in the books his affair with Melisandre is only hinted at (contrasting with his justly, dutiful nature and principles) yet in the books he just goes ahead and starts porkin' her on the table. I know it was probably for the best but I still think it ailed the character.

I would have also liked to have seen Renly's Peach.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

He almost gets killed by Cersei, Tyrion clearly outwits him in the Myrcella marriage plot, Margaery outwits him about... marriages in general, he genuinely tries to woo Catelyn after he betrays Ned, he (possibly) recognises Arya Stark but lets her get away, his plan to take Sansa is foiled ... and, had he stayed around in King's Landing any longer last season, he probably would have been outwitted several times by Olenna.

He is incompetent in the show, especially as most of your counter arguments occur before the series takes place (and being on the council, at least, is because of Lysa, not just his talent). But that was my point, anyway: the show has made him look incompetent by adding moments of severe stupidity. The reveal that he orchestrated the war will feel less impressive - and, I'd argue, less credible - than it was in the books.

I can't speak for myself, but I certainly wouldn't have goaded Cersei Lannister - surrounded by guards - about her incest. So I think it's fair to say I'm less incompetent than HBO Littlefinger, the moustache-twirling 2D villain.

Tyrion is not a man to be ashamed of being bested by once. He's not almost killed by Cersei, since Cersei wouldn't kill him. She was demonstrating her power. Margaery doesn't outwit him, she just composes herself well enough not to show offense or react to his jabs.

The Cat thing is surely silly, but that's always been his weakness, and it was a poor last effort at winning Cat before going full-fledged fuck you mode. He purposefully lets Arya go because he has no way to benefit from it at the time (telling Tywin doesn't help him and its clear that he's contemplating how he can use her to his advantage). His plan to take Sansa was foiled, but them he cleverly learns of the reason and ruins it, and we know he will later plot something that will ensure he gets her.

He's not as "perfect" as he in the books, but is that really a bad thing? Does that really make it less believable that not every single thing he's planned has worked flawlessly? Or is it more believable that Petyr occasionally errs and when he's presented with an obstacle will go to any length to get what he wants?

That's way more believable to me. The perfect mastermind villain is fucking retarded. I want all my characters flawed because that's what people are actually like. That doesn't make him incompetent in the least, it makes him realistic, and even then it's a stretch really, considering how well everything works out for him.

[go joff go]

I'm pretty sure in each of those scenes LF didn't really expect to "Accomplish his goal" and was playacting. In the Tyrion scene when he is facing away from Tyrion he has a look on his face that says "I know this is total bs, but I am going to go along with it, give you a chance to trust me". Same thing with Cat (come with me scene), Ned (join with renly), Renly (I will open the gates for you), Margery (marriage scene), Arya meeting with tywin scene), Sansa (boat scene), Ros (I gave away a whore once), Cersei (twincest scene), Tywin (give you tyrell Army scene), Lysa (moon door). LF repeatedly offers characters a way out that likely would be in their best interest. None of them can honestly say LF didn't give them a chance to trust him and everyone of them spits in his face. So I don't read it as incompetent, but rather, giving characters a chance to side with him, and being rejected. I think its great b/c it gives LF a legitimate motive, that frankly is pretty flimsy and not fleshed out in the book. In fact, in a sense, no one gets "betrayed" more in the show then LF. They have repeated this theme so many times I can't believe how blind most of the book reading audience is that they don't see this. Frankly I think bookreaders are just so ready to criticize that they don't pay attention.

[zaphodbrx]

I've said it many times before, show littlefinger is a bumbling idiot. He doesn't seem to have any people skills and is terrible at the game of thrones. You only have to look in any scene where he opens his mouth ( Cersie 'power is power'and such ) to see that.

To people who don't read the books, he is understood to be mainly a whore manager and his primary role seems to be to get a bunch of naked women on the screen.

I don't really get the 'evil' aspect from him. He's too stupid to be evil, and the whole whore management thing is tedious and distracting.

[PatrickStormborn]

Tyrion is not a man to be ashamed of being bested by once. He's not almost killed by Cersei, since Cersei wouldn't kill him. She was demonstrating her power. Margaery doesn't outwit him, she just composes herself well enough not to show offense or react to his jabs.

Cersei DID almost kill him. She could have had him killed at that point. Nobody smart would ever have antagonized her to such an extent. It was fucking stupid. Enough said. You can disagree about Margaery outwitting him, but she certainly looks like the "victor" after their scene together.

The Cat thing is surely silly, but that's always been his weakness, and it was a poor last effort at winning Cat before going full-fledged fuck you mode. He purposefully lets Arya go because he has no way to benefit from it at the time (telling Tywin doesn't help him and its clear that he's contemplating how he can use her to his advantage). His plan to take Sansa was foiled, but them he cleverly learns of the reason and ruins it, and we know he will later plot something that will ensure he gets her.

He has no way to benefit from Arya?! Surely that's a joke. Just telling Tywin that his cupbearer was Arya would have had a huge impact, and would have possibly led to Littlefinger being rewarded (he gives the Tyrells to the Lannisters for the same reason, remember?).

He's not as "perfect" as he in the books, but is that really a bad thing? Does that really make it less believable that not every single thing he's planned has worked flawlessly? Or is it more believable that Petyr occasionally errs and when he's presented with an obstacle will go to any length to get what he wants?

That's way more believable to me. The perfect mastermind villain is fucking retarded. I want all my characters flawed because that's what people are actually like. That doesn't make him incompetent in the least, it makes him realistic, and even then it's a stretch really, considering how well everything works out for him.

But... Petyr does occasionally "err" in the books. The difference is that he never looks like an idiot bumbling from one idiocy to the next. And it certainly helps that in the books he ISN'T a 2D "perfect mastermind villain". In the show, however, he's little more than a moustache-twirling caricature of a villain. There is extremely little nuance there. And don't even talk about him being "flawed", because he has plenty of flaws in the books despite being a competent villain.

[Dark_Sister]

The HBO synopsis of the episode where LF sees Arya says he notices her, but doesn't recognize her, that's why he doesn't do anything.

On topic: I think show LF is not that different from book LF, but it's true that he is more subtle in the books and that makes him more interesting, it's very difficult to know what his plans are and in the show he is more obvious, but I think it's necessary or the audience would wonder why they keep showing LF when apparently he is doing nothing, and I love his scenes with Varys. But I understand why some people dislike the change

[zaphodbrx]

Also, the throne room conversations are flat out daft. They make no sense whatsoever and are theatrical and silly. I keep expecting Varys to simply stab LF in the throne room and stop the babbling.

Plus pointless whore scenes and nudity are pointless, and there's a crap load of them. Littlefinger spying on a person getting a blowjob and spying on another couple, and then wiping cum from the whore's face. What? Why? The SNL skit makes great points about sexposition and it's silliness, and LF is in most of them.

[zamieo]

I don't think Littlefinger is evil. Ser Gregor is evil, he kills people for no reason, he is a rapist and a murderer of children. Biter is evil. Ramsay is evil. He tortures people because he thinks it's fun. He hunts women down in his spare time. Littlefinger does things to gain power, not out of spite or because he was bored. With that said, he's obviously not a good person, although some of his actions have good consequences (Joff's death, for example).

[Wilbert]

In my opinion sadistic perverts are not the only evil people in this world. He's not showing any signs insanity which makes him even more evil in my opinion. Come on, he's pushing his newly-wed bride through the moon door as soon as he's become the Lord Protector of the Vale. He basically started the War of Five Kings that cost the lives of thousands of people both soldiers and the smallfolk. The bottom line is he wants to gain power at any cost. IMHO it can be defined as evilness.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Cersei DID almost kill him. She could have had him killed at that point. Nobody smart would ever have antagonized her to such an extent. It was fucking stupid. Enough said. You can disagree about Margaery outwitting him, but she certainly looks like the "victor" after their scene together.

He has no way to benefit from Arya?! Surely that's a joke. Just telling Tywin that his cupbearer was Arya would have had a huge impact, and would have possibly led to Littlefinger being rewarded (he gives the Tyrells to the Lannisters for the same reason, remember?).

But... Petyr does occasionally "err" in the books. The difference is that he never looks like an idiot bumbling from one idiocy to the next. And it certainly helps that in the books he ISN'T a 2D "perfect mastermind villain". In the show, however, he's little more than a moustache-twirling caricature of a villain. There is extremely little nuance there. And don't even talk about him being "flawed", because he has plenty of flaws in the books despite being a competent villain.

Cersei could have anyone killed at any time. It was silly to antagonize her, but he believes she won't actually have him killed and he's right.

He has many ways to benefit from Arya, but telling Tywin hey that kid is Arya Stark doesn't help him right then and there. Just squealing HEY LOOK ARYA STARK is not something a careful, patient plotter does. Since he's not abandoned hope of Cat yet, he may be considering how to return her to curry favor with her. Plus he supposedly doesn't recognize Arya, which to be honest seems ridiculous based on how he glares at her.

How is anything he's done in the books been in error or flawed? His only "flaw" is that he's a creep, but that's not the flaws I mean. I mean people who make flawed or poor decisions in retrospect, as everyone does.

[Nilan8888]

Actually, although I do disagree with some of the aspects of Littlefinger's characterizations on the show and I think they have not gotten his character "right" or improved on it (for instance, I think Margery's character is not "right", but she's actually better on the show, whereas Stannis and Littlefinger are not "right" and worse for it), I would contest these points:

Cersei DID almost kill him. She could have had him killed at that point. Nobody smart would ever have antagonized her to such an extent. It was fucking stupid. Enough said. You can disagree about Margaery outwitting him, but she certainly looks like the "victor" after their scene together.

I disagree that Cersei did almost kill him. But it was hardly a calculated risk Petyr took. I think the Petyr from the books would have had this impulse. And in fact, in the books Petyr would often make backhanded comments about Ned right to Ned's face. Was that particularly smart? So, do I think Petyr from the books would have done this? No. But I do think it's a closer match than some might give this scene credit for. The book Petyr would certainly have had this sort of impulse at the very least.

He has no way to benefit from Arya?! Surely that's a joke. Just telling Tywin that his cupbearer was Arya would have had a huge impact, and would have possibly led to Littlefinger being rewarded (he gives the Tyrells to the Lannisters for the same reason, remember?).

No, that's not a joke. He had no way to benefit from Arya that would have gained him the sort of profit that information deserved. He knows what Tywin is like: point out Arya then and there, and he'd gain SOME sort of reward, sure. But it would have been middling at best. Not to mention that pointing out Arya's been right under Tywin's nose the whole time would make someone like Tywin feel stupid even if you're not trying to what with his ego, and that might have an adverse effect on what your reward might be, despite the fact that you just helped him. Tywin would potentially forget Petyr's involvement pretty quickly and he'd only get some bags of gold out of it or something. Knowing Arya's alive is a much better gambling chip than that, and it was better to sit on that information until he was in such a position as to make use of it.

Arya in Littlefingers custody, and presented to Tywin = potential Lordship

Arya in Tywin's custody, and pointed out by Littlefinger = some bags of gold, maybe some Lannister-bestowed bodyguards or servants.

But... Petyr does occasionally "err" in the books. The difference is that he never looks like an idiot bumbling from one idiocy to the next. And it certainly helps that in the books he ISN'T a 2D "perfect mastermind villain". In the show, however, he's little more than a moustache-twirling caricature of a villain. There is extremely little nuance there. And don't even talk about him being "flawed", because he has plenty of flaws in the books despite being a competent villain.

Eeeh, I dunno, that is something about the books. I'm hard-pressed to think of a bona-fide mistake that Littlefinger makes in the books, other than trusting Sansa (which is sort of the point of his character). At best any mistake he supposedly makes is debatable.