The Fast Food Forward Movement

[thecryptile]

I am willing to bet none of the people fighting against a decent minimum wage in this thread are either majority shareholders of McDonalds or 1%ers (are you, FLoW? or thecryptile?) Henry Ford certainly recognized workers had to be paid a decent wage in order to go out and spend money.

I don't own any McDonald's stocks. If raising minimum wage isn't disruptive, then it shouldn't hurt stock prices.

You have a bloody nerve asking for sources when you haven't provided a single one for any of your arguments.

He said there were studies, a claim that I didn't make.

Try backing up all the wild statements you've made in this thread with facts and figures.

Wild statements? Like that $15 is a huge amount of money where I live? OK, here you go:

The lowest median incomes in Virginia were in Southwest Virginia, with Galax at $22,105, Buchanan County at $27,538 and Dickenson County at $28,296.

The information comes from a 2005-2009 sample, with 3 million households polled each year, in the American Community Survey. The Census Bureau released about 11.1 billion pieces of data Tuesday morning, which Director Robert M. Groves said was likely the biggest release of data "in the history of mankind."

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/article_c224dd7b-4e14-5b75-a500-ed70af7e5ae7.html

The median wage in SWVA is well below $15 an hour.

Here to start:

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

It's a very well studied subject. Basically anything that involves actual studies finds the same thing.

Thanks, I'll read this and repost with my thoughts.

:lmao: Yeah, it's burdensome regulations that stop minimum-wage workers from starting their own businesses. If not for those damn regulations, everyone would be bootstrapping themselves! Using all that starting capital that they don't have.

Burdensome regulations and are the reason you need a lot of starting capital. If there was less regulation, there would be more small businesses, with more employees. Government regulation stifles individual initiative.

If you think it's okay that some people starve, please have the guts to say so instead of hiding behind the idea that each individual starving person could, maybe, not be starving if they made different choices (no matter that if they did, some other person would likely be starving instead).

By "starving", you mean "on food stamps" right?

[DaarioKnowsBest]

But Fast food workers get practically trained.

[Shryke]

He said there were studies, a claim that I didn't make.

Indeed and that's the whole problem. As the rest of your post here and previously demonstrates, your ideas are based on "things I pulled out of my ass to support my world view" and not, you know, data.

Burdensome regulations and are the reason you need a lot of starting capital. If there was less regulation, there would be more small businesses, with more employees.

No, that's not true at all. Regulation has nothing to do with the startup costs of a business. This line of thinking doesn't even make sense. How does a lack of regulation make, say, leasing a storefront or paying salaries by the two week mark not require start up capital?

By "starving", you mean "on food stamps" right? Government regulation stifles individual initiative.

Um, what? Not starving stifles initiative ... how?

[awesome possum]

for your brain numbingly fucking stupid post I give you the definition of unskilled labor:

unskilled labor

noun

1.

work that requires practically no training or experience for its adequate or competent performance. The very definition of fast food workers!

What's so brain-numbingly stupid about your post is the idea you're pushing that if you work fast food you're automatically an unskilled laborer who deserves to be working fast food and thus make a wage that is automatically below the poverty line.

I'm not interested in discussing it further with you. I misread your username when I originally replied to your post. Had I realized it was you, I wouldn't have wasted the bandwidth.

[emberling]

Burdensome regulations and are the reason you need a lot of starting capital. If there was less regulation, there would be more small businesses, with more employees.

Do you propose that if there were no burdensome regulations, that required starting capital for most small businesses would become small enough that current minimum-wage workers could reasonably provide it? Given that these businesses will be competing with other, already successful small and large businesses that have established client bases, quality equipment, any necessary real estate etc.?

[Fragile Bird]

I don't own any McDonald's stocks. If raising minimum wage isn't disruptive, then it shouldn't hurt stock prices.

You misunderstand. I mean greedy majority shareholders that demand costs be kept as low as possible so that profits remain high. Screw the effect on workers, right?

He said there were studies, a claim that I didn't make.

Shryke has already answered, but just to add, you make all kinds of claims without any back-up of facts.

Wild statements? Like that $15 is a huge amount of money where I live? OK, here you go: http://www.timesdisp...70af7e5ae7.html

The median wage in SWVA is well below $15 an hour.

.

The workers are asking for $15 as a decent living wage. I, and others, have said the minimum wage should keep up with inflation. AP pointed out that the minimum wage from the 60s adjusted for inflation would be $10.56 today.

Your reference? The lowest median annual salary in Virginia is quoted to be $22,105 a year. That works out to, oh gee, $10.62 an hour: divided by 52 weeks, $425.09 a week, divided by 40 hours, $10.62. And I bet it would be safe to say a lot of those lowest category workers don't work 52 weeks or 40 hours a week, so their hourly wage is higher - if they worked 50 weeks but still 40 hours, their hourly wage is $11.05.

The other 2 counties? $27,538 is $529.57 weekly or $13.24 an hour, again assuming 52 weeks and 40 hours a week. Dickenson County at $28,296 is $544.15 a week, $13.60 an hour.

The US minimum wage is $7.25 or $15,080 a year. If I could raise my wage by $7,025 a year, I'd be damned happy, not to mention if I could raise it by $12,458 or by $13,116, as in the 2 other counties.

[thecryptile]

No, that's not true at all. Regulation has nothing to do with the startup costs of a business. This line of thinking doesn't even make sense. How does a lack of regulation make, say, leasing a storefront or paying salaries by the two week mark not require start up capital?

For a contractor's license in Virginia you've got to have a certain amount of liquid assets. I have several friends who would be in business as contractors, but they don't have the required liquid assets to get the license. That is a case of government regulation killing small businesses. These guys have the tools and skills, but without the liquid assets they can't legally use them for their own small business.

Um, what? Not starving stifles initiative ... how?

That was a cut-and-past fail. The remark about stifling initiative was supposed to go above the food stamps.

I think some of you have the conception that I'm rich or something, but I make the same amount of money as a McDonald's employee in my area, and I am certain that I would have less work (on the books anyway) if minimum wage was raised. The farmers that gladly pay me $8 or $9 an hour would just do it themselves if they had to pay $15 an hour.

Your reference? The lowest median annual salary in Virginia is quoted to be $22,105 a year. That works out to, oh gee, $10.62 an hour: divided by 52 weeks, $425.09 a week, divided by 40 hours, $10.62. And I bet it would be safe to say a lot of those lowest category workers don't work 52 weeks or 40 hours a week, so their hourly wage is higher - if they worked 50 weeks but still 40 hours, their hourly wage is $11.05.

The other 2 counties? $27,538 is $529.57 weekly or $13.24 an hour, again assuming 52 weeks and 40 hours a week. Dickenson County at $28,296 is $544.15 a week, $13.60 an hour.

That is a median wage that is pulled up by wealthy folks like doctors and lawyers. If you work at McDonalds in Pulaski you will get $8.00 an hour, the same starting wage for factory jobs in Pulaski.

Even with the rich people, the median wage is well below $15 an hour. A lead operator at the Arsenal only makes $16 an hour.

[Fragile Bird]

For a contractor's license in Virginia you've got to have a certain amount of liquid assets. I have several friends who would be in business as contractors, but they don't have the required liquid assets to get the license. That is a case of government regulation killing small businesses. These guys have the tools and skills, but without the liquid assets they can't legally use them for their own small business.

I tried to google that and nothing came up. How much in liquid assets? Are you talking about some kind of bond you need to post before you can do commercial work? I saw in some states no bond is required for residential work.

I think some of you have the conception that I'm rich or something, but I make the same amount of money as a McDonald's employee in my area, and I am certain that I would have less work (on the books anyway) if minimum wage was raised. The farmers that gladly pay me $8 or $9 an hour would just do it themselves if they had to pay $15 an hour.That is a median wage that is pulled up by wealthy folks like doctors and lawyers. If you work at McDonalds in Pulaski you will get $8.00 an hour, the same starting wage for factory jobs in Pulaski.

Even with the rich people, the median wage is well below $15 an hour. A lead operator at the Arsenal only makes $16 an hour.

Wait a second, this is median wage, not average wage. Average wages are pulled up by the rich. Median wage means half of the people make less than the median wage, half the people make more than the median wage. Professionals in those counties probably mean 5% of the wage earners, meaning 45% are not professionals.

And yes, this screams for an area that could really benefit from a minimum wage of $10.00 or $10.25. The minimum wage in Ontario is $10.25, and guess what, people are still lined up at McDonalds. I don't eat often at fast food places, but a meal with burger, fries and a coke is something like $8.00. The prices are roughly 40% higher in Canada than average US prices. Maybe if they were higher in the USA fewer people would eat at fast food places and actually cook at home once in a while. Open a can of soup, make some mac and cheese, both of which have to be better than a burger and fries.

[thecryptile]

I tried to google that and nothing came up. How much in liquid assets? Are you talking about some kind of bond you need to post before you can do commercial work? I saw in some states no bond is required for residential work.

For a class B, I think it's $15,000.00. Your house and car don't count for this either. Then you've got to have $500,000 worth of liability insurance. On top of that the fees for the license and testing are a couple hundred dollars too.

Wait a second, this is median wage, not average wage. Average wages are pulled up by the rich. Median wage means half of the people make less than the median wage, half the people make more than the median wage. Professionals in those counties probably mean 5% of the wage earners, meaning 45% are not professionals.

Yes, my bad I confused "median" with "average". Still, half the people are making less. Many of them are skilled in comparison to fast food workers.

Maintenance in factories is a fairly high paid position, but most of them start out at $13 an hour. It is a lot harder to keep an extruder running than it is to make a McDouble.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Try making 500 mcdoubles in one shift see how easy it is

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Regulation has nothing to do with the startup costs of a business.

Wow. I mean, just wow.

If you thought you ever had any credibility to people who actually know what they're talking about on these issues, you just completely blew it. That is a mindnumbingly ignorant statement.

[thecryptile]

Try making 500 mcdoubles in one shift see how easy it is

Easier than keeping an extruder running at 110% day in day out. That's why the maintenance men make more money than the burger flippers.

It's also easier and safer than what I do. Try castrating 500 lambs in a day. Hell, just try castrating one.

Farm work is one of the most dangerous professions in the country. Statistically, my job is more dangerous than active duty military.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I won't pretend I know what an extruder is if you stop pretending you know anything about fast food work because you don't

castrating 500 lambs a day wtf?

So according to you all jobs get paid based on their difficulty level, shouldn't you be among the richest people in the world since you are claiming your job is so dangerous and difficult

And btw, why are you doing this job if it is so dangerous and difficult?

[thecryptile]

I won't pretend I know what an extruder is if you stop pretending you know anything about fast food work because you don't

An extruder makes polypropylene rolls, which then go to a sleever where they are made into plastic cups. Then the blank cups go to the printer. I used to make plastic cups.

I've never worked fast food, but that is because I would end up fighting some dude over the pickle on his burger. I'm not saying it isn't hard work, and fast food workers put up with a lot of bullshit.

castrating 500 lambs a day wtf?

And docking their tails. ("Docking" means "cutting off"). You think that is disgusting, you should see us preg-check cattle. It involves a glove that goes up to the shoulder lol.

So according to you all jobs get paid based on their difficulty level, shouldn't you be among the richest people in the world since you are claiming your job is so dangerous and difficult

No, my claim is that pay is based on skill.

Working livestock is not that hard (it is dangerous, because of large animals and heavy equipment like tractors and chainsaws.). There are a lot of people who can do it, just as there are a lot of people who can make burgers. There is some skill required, but anyone who has the stomach can pick it up fairly quickly. That's why my pay is comparable to McDonald's pay.

[peterbound]

This is very true. My wife is friends with a lady who met her husband at a culinary school. They both graduated with flying colors, both have jobs specifically in their industry (she works at a small bake shop, he's the house chef for an IU fraternity). They are currently struggling to put food on their table because she makes next to nothing and he's been laid off during the summer.

The capitalist in me want's to respond with the statement, 'they should have researched careers better, and chosen a more profitable work path', but the dreamer in me says, 'good for them, following their dream and what not'.

fuck i'm conflicted.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

And you think it will make life worse if you made 15-20$ for that job instead of the fast food type pay you make now?

[thecryptile]

And you think it will make life worse if you made 15-20$ for that job instead of what you make now?

I think I would have less work, so yes. Many of the farmers who are happy paying $8 or $9 an hour would balk at $15 or $20 an hour. Or I would be getting paid $8-$9 under the table.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I think I would have less work, so yes. Many of the farmers who are happy paying $8 or $9 an hour would balk at $15 or $20 an hour. Or I would be getting paid $8-$9 under the table.

Then why aren't people undercutting you out of jobs by working for 2 or 3$ an hour?

[thecryptile]

Then why aren't people undercutting you out of jobs by working for 2 or 3$ an hour?

That's a good question. While I've heard about farmers screwing Mexican migrants like that, everyone in my area pays about $8.00 an hour (even the Mexicans get paid $8 or $9 in my area).

I don't know, if raising the minimum wage can be accomplished without costing jobs or raising prices too much, I'm all for it.

But it seems to me that no matter what, if you make minimum wage you will be struggling.

And btw, why are you doing this job if it is so dangerous and difficult?

I hate dealing with the public and when I work at a factory, I always get stuck on swing shifts. Farm work is always day shift, and the only people who you deal with are your co-workers and employers. If you know what you are doing, the farmer will just let you work without looking over your shoulder all the time.

Those fast food wages are comparable with what I made working in factories and call centers, and while there is greater risk of physical injury, there is far less mental aggravation.

EDIT 2: All the above reasons are true, but the real reason I love farm work is I get to be a cowboy. Just like I dreamed of when I was a kid. I can carry a gun and bring my dog along to work with me. I don't have to shave or wear a uniform. There are no time clocks. There are no HR presentations.

[ThinkerX]

Ok...

The big fast food joints - and outfits like WalMart - pay the least they can get away with because they are publically traded corporations, focused entirely on lining the pockets at the management level.

There are smaller, nonpublically traded outfits where the pay is much higher...and the company still makes money.

Now, we appear to have a bunch of people in this thread suffering from the delusion that fast food work is 'unskilled'. Its not. One reason for the high turnover at these places is that the new highers do not get skilled at those particular tasks fast enough.

Case in point: my lovely young daughter spent most of two years in fast food land. Management prized her a *LOT* because she was one of about three people (out of thirty) who could keep the carryout line going (she was the gal on the microphone that took your order). She was one of the very few who could actually keep the orders straight.

Opportunity in fast food world? Or even corporate retail world? Pretty much a sick joke. Yes, you show a bit of talent, you might make assistant manager - but the way corporate land runs at that level, taking that position is an albatross. You are set up to fail, barring blackmail or miracle. I believe this to be deliberate policy, coming from the very top.

Case in point - again with my lovely young daughter. After leaving fast food world, she got hired on at WalMart. After training (mostly anti-union brainwashing) she bounced around the store for a year and some before being offered a bottom level management slot. She needed a dozen people to run that department properly. She had eight. She asked for more, and was told, 'No, your meeting that departments goals with what you have.' Then two people got yanked from her department by somebody further up the food chain, including one of her best. Again she asked for more people. She got told the same thing as before, 'goals being meant.' She put in more hours and was told 'No'. They finally let her have a couple more people - raw recruits, basically. Things started to slide. Then corporate started b*tching about things going on in her department during her days off, threatening immediate termination. She stepped down from management rather than be fired. This sort of thing is NORMAL, not just at WalMart, but most other corporate shots.

Meanwhile, there are the worthless, vastly overpaid idiots in corporate who spend their time plotting tax evasion and dreaming up more ways to screw over the people doing the actual work keeping the store in business. From the POV of those on the actual shop floors, the corporate people do not appear to do ANYTHING productive.

Minimum wage? I spent a decade delivering pizza. Only time I got a raise was when the minimum wage went up. Each and every time the minimum wage raise thing came up, there'd be news reports about how this would drive up prices and cost jobs. Never happened. Pretty much proof positive that corporate is filled with liars, cheats, and thieves.