The Fast Food Forward Movement

[MercenaryChef]

$15 an hour works out to be $31,200 per year. that is still not a great wage, really. in some cities it may well be enough to survive but in a place like nyc another job will be needed to pay the bills.

i love the idea of these fast food empires having to pony up a lot more money to their unskilled labor force.

someone mentioned pro cooks should make more as well. i love that idea.

sadly it would crash the restaurant industry....or at least the independent restaurant industry.

dream with me for a moment, folks....i finally have capital to open my own place. it is my dream restaurant. we seat 60 people, have a nice bar, a large curing room for my sausages, salamis and hams, a small outdoor patio and i open up saturday and sunday mornings for a family style brunch and beer feast to watch soccer.

a nice place, no? well, i need staff now. four cooks should do nicely as i will still do the majority of the cooking. because i was given the chance to learn, grow and develop i will do the same to young cooks. if a mcdonald's employee gets $15 an hour my professional cooks should get more. how much more? $20? $25?

at only $20 per hour my wage bills for my cooks come in at $166,400 per year. business is getting very hard very fast. add in a couple dishwashers, three bartenders, some servers and soon i have wage bills that cannot support my business model.

the independent restaurant dies. the factory restaurants and the fast food chains have the means to support a larger wage structure.

for me, how do we bring about a balance of people making livable wages and small independent restaurants surviving?

[Spring Bass]

$31,200 is pretty good in many parts of the US. Here in Salt Lake City, that would put you in the lower-middle class by itself if you're a single person. It's not great if you're living in, say, New York City, but NYC's expensiveness comes from other problems (such as their inability to build tons of new housing inside city boundaries in a reasonable time frame).

RE: ThinkerX

Side-note, but delivering pizza and other tipped restaurant jobs are one of those areas where it would be better if they just flat surcharged everyone 18% on a bill and gave it to the delivery boy/waiter. IIRC, the research on tipping habits indicates that people generally give about the same percentage in tips every time regardless of good service.That was my brother's experience as well when he delivered pizza - the amount he got in tips seemed disconnected from the actual service.

[Altherion]

the independent restaurant dies. the factory restaurants and the fast food chains have the means to support a larger wage structure.

for me, how do we bring about a balance of people making livable wages and small independent restaurants surviving?

You would need a much more widespread increase in wages so that more people would be able to afford to go to your restaurant rather than going to fast food places. If the wage hike is confined to a single sector of the economy and you happen to be a small employer in that sector, then yes, you're screwed. However, I wouldn't worry about it too much in this case because these people are not very likely to get much out of this. I would guesstimate around a 60% chance of getting nothing at all and most of the remaining 40% would result in them getting a small wage increase (think $1). The $15 minimum wage being discussed here is basically a dream.

[ThinkerX]

Side-note, but delivering pizza and other tipped restaurant jobs are one of those areas where it would be better if they just flat surcharged everyone 18% on a bill and gave it to the delivery boy/waiter. IIRC, the research on tipping habits indicates that people generally give about the same percentage in tips every time regardless of good service.That was my brother's experience as well when he delivered pizza - the amount he got in tips seemed disconnected from the actual service.

'...amount he got in tips seemed disconnected from the actual service...'

Also my experience, pretty much. The tip was almost never calculated, instead it was a guy giving me a twenty and a five for a $21.99 pizza, or a twenty and a couple of ones for a $18.89 pizza. Different places do things differently. The one outfit, I got minimum wage plus a $1.50 delivery fee plus tips - which on a typical night worked out to $12-15 an hour (this was a decade ago). Other outfits, the driver gets a percentage of the total cost and no delivery fee, or minimum wage plus actual milage (a few dimes per mile, way back when) plus tips. I spent some time at one outfit that didn't offer a delivery fee at all, which would have sucked if the pay hadn't been a couple bucks above the minimum.

I did alright for a long while with the one outfit until corporate jumped in with some absolutely idiotic rules which almost resulted in the store shutting down. But I saw plenty of corporate skullduggery and out and out cheating of their employees before that: people being railroaded not for incompetence, but because they'd toughed it out long enough to get decent raises; 'unpaid overtime' as part of the 'team' thing, ordering the pizza toppings really seriously shorted and then blaming the cooks when customers started complaining, all that stuff and more. I watched corporate introduce one promotion after another that bombed badly - several times the resteraunt manager TOLD them these deals would bomb - but when they did we got the blame, and as best I could tell, the corporate level idiots responsible got bonus's.

Again, from the POV of the people in the stores, doing the actual work which keeps these companies in business, the staffs at corporate are somewhere between 'almost worthless' and 'actively dangerous to the business' - yet the corporate people seem to think they warrent six figure saleries, or close enough to it to make no difference.

[Shryke]

Wow. I mean, just wow.

If you thought you ever had any credibility to people who actually know what they're talking about on these issues, you just completely blew it. That is a mindnumbingly ignorant statement.

I'm sorry FLOW, but context makes it obvious I'm saying it's not the limiting factor.

Anyone saying the reason people aren't starting up businesses is regulation is a fucking idiot. Satrting a business takes start up capital no matter what.

People working two jobs in fast food can't get that money of the most part.

[Shryke]

For a contractor's license in Virginia you've got to have a certain amount of liquid assets. I have several friends who would be in business as contractors, but they don't have the required liquid assets to get the license. That is a case of government regulation killing small businesses. These guys have the tools and skills, but without the liquid assets they can't legally use them for their own small business.

Tools and skills represent a startup cost too. Tools unequivocally.

That was a cut-and-past fail. The remark about stifling initiative was supposed to go above the food stamps.

An equally ridiculous statement that my comment still applies to.

Do you really think food stamps keep people from seeking employment?

[Shryke]

$15 an hour works out to be $31,200 per year. that is still not a great wage, really. in some cities it may well be enough to survive but in a place like nyc another job will be needed to pay the bills.

i love the idea of these fast food empires having to pony up a lot more money to their unskilled labor force.

someone mentioned pro cooks should make more as well. i love that idea.

sadly it would crash the restaurant industry....or at least the independent restaurant industry.

dream with me for a moment, folks....i finally have capital to open my own place. it is my dream restaurant. we seat 60 people, have a nice bar, a large curing room for my sausages, salamis and hams, a small outdoor patio and i open up saturday and sunday mornings for a family style brunch and beer feast to watch soccer.

a nice place, no? well, i need staff now. four cooks should do nicely as i will still do the majority of the cooking. because i was given the chance to learn, grow and develop i will do the same to young cooks. if a mcdonald's employee gets $15 an hour my professional cooks should get more. how much more? $20? $25?

at only $20 per hour my wage bills for my cooks come in at $166,400 per year. business is getting very hard very fast. add in a couple dishwashers, three bartenders, some servers and soon i have wage bills that cannot support my business model.

the independent restaurant dies. the factory restaurants and the fast food chains have the means to support a larger wage structure.

for me, how do we bring about a balance of people making livable wages and small independent restaurants surviving?

This basically seems to imply that the entire restaurant industry (or the independent part of it) survives solely based on incredibly low wages for skilled workers. Culinary school, afaik, is not cheap.

[litechick]

Chef, I think you could do it.

Here is some speculative number crunching: If we project that in a given hour the following averages are met--1 server has 3 tables of 4 people each and the average bill for a table is $100. You add a 15% minimum gratuity to each check--that server generates $45/hour in tips.

With 4 cooks, 4 servers, 2 dishwashers and 3 bartenders that's 48 people served by 13 staff, splitting $180 in tips. So that's over $13/hr per person on staff. Add that to minimum wage and...about $20/hour.

If the customers are willing to tip 15% then everybody should be making a nice wage and your business model is still based on paying minimum wage.

Please readjust my figures to what seems likely to you. In some ways my estimates are conservative and in some ways they are generous. You would have to account for fluctuations of peak hours vs. non-peak and you have a better idea of what is realistic for customers per server and average check.

[Lily Valley]

And fast food workers are trained, it takes some skill. It's a hard job I've done it before. I'd rather shoot myself in the head than go back and do that shit for 7$ an hour

A factory machinist is in no way more of a value to society as a person or employee than a fast food worker

Are you kidding me? First of all, if your family needed the money, you would be there for $7 an hour. Second, you can SLEEP through a shift at McDonald's. My friends spent their time in the kitchen dealing drugs through the drivethrough. A machinist has much higher job pressure than a fast food worker. The application itself will be much more probing. Why would anyone put up with that without higher pay. Not all jobs are equal.

My first job was at a McDonald's. I was 14. I have been working ever since the day I turned 14. I make $8/hr for what is called my "overload". Read that as "overtime". If I refuse it, classes won't be offered. I teach at a Community College, if classes are not offered, students just have to wait. If I could make $15/hr at McDonald's, I would refuse my overload and go get 20hrs/week doing a mindless, silly job that I did as a teenager and could do with a giant hangover, I'd do it in a second. A second job with no liability, no fallout, no pressure, no stress and no papers to grade. That would be a real treat.

All the bullshit arguments that are used to fight increases in minimum wages are being trotted out here. For crying out loud, have the minimum wage at least keep up with inflation.

I am willing to bet none of the people fighting against a decent minimum wage in this thread are either majority shareholders of McDonalds or 1%ers (are you, FLoW? or thecryptile?) Henry Ford certainly recognized workers had to be paid a decent wage in order to go out and spend money.

No FB, I make $32 a year and have to put up with my family sending me SH** like this: https://www.google.c...lient=firefox-a

I tell them that the problem is people are willing to pay for scarcity in anything BUT the workforce.

Bigger changes need to happen to the entire workforce than just raising minimum wage. I'll watch this with interest, as I do all worker organization efforts.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Just because your friends worked at a slackass ghetto McDonalds doesn't mean all fast food jobs are a cakewalk that you can sleep through.

[thecryptile]

An equally ridiculous statement that my comment still applies to.

I think I proved it with the examples of my friends who can't afford to be contractors. There are many other businesses that are stifled by government regulations such as food carts and food trucks in the cities. These are people who would employ themselves and others if only regulatory obstacles were removed.

Do you really think food stamps keep people from seeking employment?

What? Where did I say that?

I meant that saying people are starving in the US is hyperbole. No one is starving, between food stamps and private charities like the Daily Bread there is plenty of food support for low income families.

[Lily Valley]

Just because your friends worked at a slackass ghetto McDonalds doesn't mean all fast food jobs are a cakewalk that you can sleep through.

I worked there. I did. I simply was not the one selling drugs. This particular McDonald's was a frequently awarded franchise for it's performance and excellent customer service. The job only required a minimal amount of my brain. The franchise was busy as hell. I ran my ass off. The job was a cakewalk and I didn't have to be sober to get through it. I am speaking of my own experience in the workforce.

Edit: The franchise was busy, not my brain.

Edit II: More stupid grammar.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Ok it's your own experience, great

Then you are not speaking of any other job other than the McDonald's you worked at.

[Lily Valley]

Ok it's your own experience, great

Then you are not speaking of any other job other than the McDonald's you worked at.

FFS. Read the rest of my post.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

FFS. Read the rest of my post.

I did. You are only speaking of your fast food job.

Not any other one, is this not what you said?

And you are sadly mistaken if you think no factory workers are selling weed on the job

[Shryke]

I think I proved it with the examples of my friends who can't afford to be contractors. There are many other businesses that are stifled by government regulations such as food carts and food trucks in the cities. These are people who would employ themselves and others if only regulatory obstacles were removed.

You seem to be not getting what statements I'm referring to here. A comment after a quoted portion refers to the bit above it.

Your friends in contracting have already put down money to attempt to start up their business, you are just ignoring the costs. (ie - tools being an example) A man with no skills and no tools is not a few dropped regulations away from his own business. Lack of assets and skills is a far larger obstacle.

And that's ignoring, you know, most regulations exist for a reason.

[thecryptile]

Regulatory hurdles add to the start up costs. My friends' initiative was stifled because they had to give up [their dream of] being self-employed contractors and accept lower wages at a factory.

Not all the reasons behind regulations are good, many of these regulations are designed to stifle competition and favor established businesses over start ups.

A man with no skills and no tools is not a few dropped regulations away from his own business.

I never claimed he was. But he might be able to get a job with a small business owner that pays better than fast food or packing in a factory. Or a job in the first place if he is unemployed.

[Fragile Bird]

Are you kidding me? First of all, if your family needed the money, you would be there for $7 an hour. Second, you can SLEEP through a shift at McDonald's. My friends spent their time in the kitchen dealing drugs through the drivethrough. A machinist has much higher job pressure than a fast food worker. The application itself will be much more probing. Why would anyone put up with that without higher pay. Not all jobs are equal.

My first job was at a McDonald's. I was 14. I have been working ever since the day I turned 14. I make $8/hr for what is called my "overload". Read that as "overtime". If I refuse it, classes won't be offered. I teach at a Community College, if classes are not offered, students just have to wait. If I could make $15/hr at McDonald's, I would refuse my overload and go get 20hrs/week doing a mindless, silly job that I did as a teenager and could do with a giant hangover, I'd do it in a second. A second job with no liability, no fallout, no pressure, no stress and no papers to grade. That would be a real treat.

No FB, I make $32 a year and have to put up with my family sending me SH** like this: https://www.google.c...lient=firefox-a

I tell them that the problem is people are willing to pay for scarcity in anything BUT the workforce.

Bigger changes need to happen to the entire workforce than just raising minimum wage. I'll watch this with interest, as I do all worker organization efforts.

I don't know what you wanted us to see in your link. It's shows a list of stories about the shortage of physics and science teachers. Why is this shit your family sends you?

[Lily Valley]

I don't know what you wanted us to see in your link. It's shows a list of stories about the shortage of physics and science teachers. Why is this shit your family sends you?

FB,

I'm a Physics teacher. I get paid an overtime wage of $8/hour. The college cannot afford more. My family sends me stories like this and demands to know why I am not getting paid more money. I explain that nobody wants to pay more than what I'm getting paid. My family is SURE that with the scarcity of teachers, people would pay more. Employers won't. Teaching Science is a lot harder than working fast food. I know this because I have done both.

Some weeks it is very difficult for me not to quit and go get a waitressing job. I'd make more money with less headaches (or more, I can do that job with a hangover too.) Most of the time I like my job (and the fancy health insurance). So I haven't, yet.

My point was that not all of us who raise eyebrows at a $15/hr wage hike are 1%'s. Everyone is frustrated, including a lot of people who did everything they were "supposed" to do and still are living near poverty.

The minimum wage increase argument is much more complicated than raising the base pay. In many sectors, it will put important services out of the reach of a lot of people. I am not an economist. I am just a worker who is skeptical that wage increases will solve everything.

[Gillio]

Link to fair work australia's award finder http://awardfinder.fwo.gov.au/

restaurant, tearooms and catering award http://www.fairwork....es/AN160276.pdf

Teachers http://www.fwc.gov.au/consolidated_awards/an/AN160306/asframe.html