Passages you personally feel most take the wrong way

[bemused]

:D :D so much for that then..

But , I do love the list .

[J. Stargaryen]

Well that's just sad.

ETA: Really though if Danm is onto something about the "sweetness," it's a very Martin-esque thing to do. Plop in this blue flower that's obviously related to Jon, have it give off an air of sweetness, get the Jon/Dany fangirls (and fanboys) in a tizzy thinking it foreshadows vomit-inducing "true love," then turn the tables and have it be something completely different — and something already thematically foreshadowed in other uses of "sweetness" where sweetness means troubles. It's pretty clever, actually.

Did you read that list? It's impossible to deny that sweetness has a negative connotation, especially for Dany. Even outside of Dany's arc, sweet doesn't bring joyful imagery. Calling Cersei sweet Cersei or sweet sister doesn't mean they think she's adorable and kind. They are being sarcastic. Sweetsister is known for luring ships to shore in order to pirate the goods. Sweetsleep is a poison that kills. Sweetrobin isn't really sweet at all. Tywin's body is perfumed the hide the foul odors. Varys sweetens his smell with perfumes. Smells are at times described sickly sweet.

:agree:

"Sweetness" aside, I felt like there were clear symbolic parallels for the rest of the sentence. I'm not at all surprised to find out that GRRM gave "sweetness" a symbolic meaning, too.

Nice work, danm_99.

An interesting question is, does "sweetness" mean death for Dany or just death in general?

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness....

Jon filled the air with death?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

:agree:

"Sweetness" aside, I felt like there were clear symbolic parallels for the rest of the sentence. I'm not at all surprised to find out that GRRM gave "sweetness" a symbolic meaning, too.

Nice work, danm_99.

An interesting question is, does "sweetness" mean death for Dany or just death in general?

Jon filled the air with death?

All credit to DP here, but there are a ton of instances where "sweetness" has kind of icky connotations. Baelish calling Sansa "sweetling," Raff the Sweetling being a psycho, Cersei the "sweet sister."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon filled the air with death?

The question here is, if this is the case, is Jon objectively "trouble," or only trouble from Dany's perspective? Two totally different things.

[Ser Creighton]

The question here is, if this is the case, is Jon objectively "trouble," or only trouble from Dany's perspective? Two totally different things.

Lyanna called love sweet. "Love is sweet dearest Ned." You know where that got her.

[J. Stargaryen]

All credit to DP here, but there are a ton of instances where "sweetness" has kind of icky connotations. Baelish calling Sansa "sweetling," Raff the Sweetling being a psycho, Cersei the "sweet sister."

Yeah, it very well may be more nuanced than just "death." Great work by danm_99 and DP so far. I wonder if there's more.

The question here is, if this is the case, is Jon objectively "trouble," or only trouble from Dany's perspective? Two totally different things.

Definitely. Filling the air with Dany's death might be just what the doctor ordered.

Lyanna called love sweet. "Love is sweet dearest Ned." You know where that got her.

That's a potentially nice catch.

[Pinkie Baelish]

This is what happens when ADWD was released two years ago. We start debating the meaning of the word "sweet".

Godspeed, GRRM.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Perhaps Jon's negative 'sweetness' is his better claim to the IT.

Dany defeats the slavers, sails her army west, liberates Volantis, lands in Westeros, defeats Aegon, conquers the South, and gains the North through a political marriage with the KITN, and after all that she discovers that the Iron Throne is actually her husband's, by right. Sorry Dany, no IT for you. Sweet enough?

[Toxspecific]

Stannis' whole 'I looked into the flames, I saw something'.

What it actually meant: he acknowledges there is some power in the red faith, that he is weary of yet willing to use.

How people interpret it: HE'S WORSHIPPING A DEMON OMG

[J. Stargaryen]

This is what happens when ADWD was released two years ago. We start debating the meaning of the word "sweet".

Godspeed, GRRM.

Personally, most of my favorite discussions revolve around someone finding a pattern like this.

Perhaps Jon's negative 'sweetness' is his better claim to the IT.

Dany defeats the slavers, sails her army west, liberates Volantis, lands in Westeros, defeats Aegon, conquers the South, and gains the North through a political marriage with the KITN, and after all that she discovers that the Iron Throne is actually her husband's, by right. Sorry Dany, no IT for you. Sweet enough?

That could be part of it.

[Ser Creighton]

Ah shit Martin called the ending bittersweet, bitterdeath. Ok the Others are winning it's an apocalypse series, Westeros is in the west, the sunset sea is there, the sun sets in the west, the sun is setting on Westeros. It's all over, no need to bother with the last two books they have been done in by sweetness.

[corbon]

"...all the smiles died."

Seems to be widely interpreted as universal outrage at Rhaegar's behaviour in romantically naming Lyanna Stark Queen of Love and Beauty.

I think thats dubious, very dubious.

First point, its not a romantic gesture, though it can be used as one. Its an honour, an acknowledgement of value, primarily. The original champions were going to honour their sister/niece, not show off their romantic affections for her. And Barristan, and other KG, must have won tournaments and given awards, without any romantic connotations (some of the time at least).

I am very confident that Rahegar named Lyanna not because he had any romantic leanings toward her (even, especially, if he actually did feel something - he's dutiful after all), but to honour her actions as KotLT - actions worthy of a true knight, but not able to be acknowledged pulicly due to Aerys' attitude.

I think there was an expectation, sort of a resigned "ho-hum, no prizes for guessing who QoLaB will be then - Mr Dutiful Rhaegar will certainly name his wife like a good, boring husband" air in the crowd, because thats what we are told Rhaegar was like. Dutiful, fond of his wife, always doing the right thing.

Then he stops in front of an almost unknown northern girl and lays the crown in her lap...

Even worse, it turns out shes betrothed to his cousin (if she is by then, I can't remember if we are certain of the timing of this or not, but I think she is)...

I don't see the reactions of people from all over westeros as being universal. Some will be shocked (surprised). Some will be horrified, guessing (wrongly IMO) that there is a romantic implication. Some will be titillated. Some will be gleeful even.

I imagine that the Starks (and Robert Baratheon) would be shocked, stunned even, and after that perhaps horrified for a while, at least those that don't have a clue what went on. I imagine the Martells too would be surprised initially, and their second reaction being some small dismay for Elia. But its not a huge thing, especially in their culture.

But there is no indication that anything further happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna at this time. He's still chasing his dream of three dragons with Elia, and the second of those three is conceived either just before or just after this. Its not until 9 months later when Aegon is born and Elia pronounced unable to have more children that he needs another wife.

I look at the scene, and I think 'all' the smiles dying is possibly those people around Howland Reed - the Starks and maybe Robert Baratheon. Some of the rest of the crowd too, perhaps much of it, but I just don't see 'all' as being literally all. Too many people would be titillated or, or gleeful to see Rhaegar do something improper for once - that is just human nature. So I think of the scene and I see most of the smiles 'dying' (especially those immediately around HR), replaced by sheer shock and surprise for the most part (perhaps even that could be almost universal) at something unexpected happening at one of the big moments of the tournament. But after that, I see a that surprise turn into a wide variety of responses. And I'd expect those responses to change over time - some gossip and rage/dismay initially, but that won't last unless its fed, and there is no indication of anything feeding it.

If Rhaegar does nothing further to pay particular attention to Lyanna, I can't see very many people truly 'holding on' to this as a big thing.

This part is 100% speculative. So I'm not saying it was this way, just that I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was as it seems to fit all the character clues we have.

It seems to me that Rhaegar being the dutiful prince he supposedly was, and still being fond of and planning with Elia, he possibly would have made a point of paying particular attention to her more or less immediately after, just to show everyone that he's not insulting her here, and doesn't have designs (at least not at this stage) on this northern girl. He's supposed to be very smart after all.

And Elia? I'd bet she was no dummy either, and probably would have played along. If he's very smart he possibly would have warned her in advance anyway.

Its also worth noting that there is nothing further noted from anyone about Rhaegar and Lyanna until they actually elope the best part of a year later.

I take that as somethinng of an indication (not a confirmation) that beyond the initial shock, the whole QoLaB wasn't a big deal at the time.

Certainly not the way most people seem to treat it.

[Danelle]

I don't have the books at hand so mine wont be exact-

When Jaime is talking to Payne about what he would have done to Arya after he understood what Cersei really wanted with the whole screaming "I Want!"

"It was only luck that Stark's own men found the girl before me, if I had come upon her first..."

Even though I said I don't have the books available I distinctly remember the "..." at the end of his sentence.

I always took this line from Jaime as he worries he would have killed or maimed Arya, NOT that he for sure would have.

As in he would have found no joy in it, BUT, for Cersei he fears he would have done it, and the thought that he was capable of such maliciousness for no reason other than his devotion to Cersei and desire to please her would have led him to do it.

Contrary to what most posters seem to think-

I don't believe he is admitting that he was going to do it.

What are some lines or passages that you PERSONALLY feel most users have misinterpreted?

Interesting topic!

The exact passage is the following

Ned Stark’s daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night... wel , Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword... but you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...

As far as Jaime and his actions and motives are concerned, I think that it is debatable.

The problem with Jaime is that unlike the vast majority of main characters, such as Jon, Catelyn, Dany, Bran, he is almost a background character in the first book, he briefly appears in the second book and becomes a POV in the third.

Given the fact that almost everything that he does or does not is controversial, I think that quite often his actions and thoughts are misinterpreted.

Personally I think that GRRM tends to present certain characters in a positive or negative manner and then tries to do his best to change the reader's opinion on that character. Since the entre narrative is based on POV chapters, we do have conflicting views on characters motives and actions.I believe that specific passages make the story arc of certain characters to be misinterpreted, especially when those characters are controversial for a large part of the readership.

For example, Lady's death I think that is misinterpreted when people regard it as proof that Sansa will die.

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa's look that cut.

"She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher."

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter's wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while.

"Lady," he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell." "All that way?" Jory said, astonished. "All that way," Ned affirmed. "The Lannister woman shall never have this skin."

Lady's execution, for me, signifies several things but not necessarily that Sansa Stark will die.

Prophecies are often misinterpreted as well. In my opinion, Cersei's prophecy about her children doesn't necessarily mean that they will all die.

Joffrey died a King, Myrcella was crowned and was injured. I believe that he scar is what Maggy meant,

Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds

Not to mention that given the current situation in Westeros, I don't think that Myrcella will ever marry Trystane or have a happyn ending. I wouldn't be surprised if Myrcella became a silent sister.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Don't know if this counts but the quote: "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it"

Basically the quote is saying Rhaegar caused the deaths of innocents because he liked some chick, but the only thing fans saw is how romantically tragic the whole thing is.

Are you serious?

Thank God! Somebody's finally talking sense!

I'm saying that you're reading "bride" too narrowly. Like I said, it's weird to me that people can accept a broader definition for "daughter of death" but think "bride of fire" can only refer to actual husbands.

I agree. I always took this like Elizabeth's "wedded to the realm". Those deaths shaped her, like a parent, into the person she would be: Daenerys Stormborn, titles,titles. Its not like actually Rhaegar's and Viserys' daughter but it's their deaths that led her to believe she is now Queen.

[David Selig]

When Catelyn meets Mya and feels angry at first when she was told her name is Stone. So many people think this shows that Catelyn hates all bastards, even though it's very clearly written that her initial feelings were because Mya reminded Catelyn about Jon Snow and Catelyn had nothing against Mya herself. She even compares her to Sansa and has a lot of sympathy for her.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

In the quote above @Danelle.

"If I had come one her first" maybe he means ...

[Gordon Ramsay Snow]

"they killed him long ago"

Thank you! As a believer in the Benjen = Coldhands theory, it irks me when people use this quote as the undeniable evidence that Benjen can't possibly be Coldhands.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Cultural Relativism yet again? I don't give LF any excuse because of it. It's the same as saying Robert/Cersei was not rape because they were married, and In medieval times, It would not be considered rape. I don't think we really can justify his behavior there.

have people actually argued that Robert didn't rape Cersei because marriage nullifies the term rape? That's disturbing. Again, I think LF is wrong, I'm just not quick to go all the way to rape. I'd rather see him stay away from her, though.

[Spud the Unburnt]

^{The misinterpretation that annoys me is when people judge the behaviours in the books by modern standards. The series is a fantasy land based in the medieval era. They DO NOT have the same culture as we do today.}

[butterbumps!]

The misinterpretation that annoys me is when people judge the behaviours in the books by modern standards. The series is a fantasy land based in the medieval era. They DO NOT have the same culture as we do today.

So, about that-- Martin isn't writing these books for a medieval audience. In fact, he's not even writing about a "medieval" setting-- it's quasi Medieval, with a bit of modern flair, rounded out with ice demons, dragons, and homicidal shadows that come out of birth canals.

Martin's not created a replica of our own history. The world he has created has a number of facets that do align with our sensibilities-- rape is punishable and seen as immoral by nearly everyone, homosexuality is widely tolerated, child murder is not the "norm," slavery is considered abhorrent.

It's not the same "culture" that we have, but the moral values we see, and the behaviors that are tolerated as "normal," are not so vastly different as they seem on the surface. But also, as modern readers of a modern series, we're missing out on a lot if we ignore our own sensibilities and just accept everything that's shown as excusable by virtue of "their different culture." Some of the more heroic actions, like the Essos abolition campaign, Jon's notions of mankind, Ned's saving Jon, Jaime's rescuing Pia are all less admirable if one only accepts the most basic culturally relativistic reading.