[TWoW Spoilers] Worldcon reading: second Tyrion chapter

[John Reynolds]

I like the idea of Jon just not being killed because they botched the assassination. He wakes up being cared for with 6 non-fatal stab wounds and a pissed off dire wolf at his feet. That, to me, would be the real twist.

Part of me would laugh at that and I think part would be annoyed (if not pissed off).

[chrisdaw]

GRRM frees himself from dealing with a popular character who has no clear roll at this point.

I think if you get too caught up in that "meticulously crafted" idea you lose spontaneity and the chaos inherent in life - which GRRM likes to capture in his story lines.

To think GRRM has no clear role for Tyrion seems extremely naïve. He's known the broadbrush outlines of the story from the start. Tyrion is not an accidental popular character, he is GRRM's favourite and has the most chapters of all characters.

As for Tyrion not needing to survive Meereen, GRRM has spoken about the readers anticipation of the meeting between the two characters and how he has given careful consideration of the timing.

What evidence is there of this seemingly random spontaneity GRRM apparently likes? All major events on the scale that would rival Tyrion's death have had deep foreshadowing and meaningful consequences far beyond Sansa's marital status (which is easily gotten around) and Cersei's state of mind.

[Stoned Dragon]

Tyrion alive is worth more than Tyrion dead.

Dany is going to need somebody to rule the Westerlands if she wins the Iron Throne, and a Lannister would have an easier time than someone else. Just like (f)Arya in the North or Harry the Heir having the last name Arryn or the first Baratheon marrying the last Storm Queen and taking her sigil and house words, Dany could use Tyrion to maintain legitimacy with the small folk in the region. If Varys has Tyrek, then Tyrion would be a nice trump since he'd be higher in the succession. There's also the fact he is one of the few people not in the North with a respect for the Night's Watch and a personal relationship with its Lord Commander, making him useful narratively when circumstances lead Dany to the true fight happening against the Others.

Tyion in ADWD was really down, and some readers didn't like that -- and that's totally understandable. But by the end of the book the old-Tyrion is back, escaping slavery, buying his way into a sellsword company, plotting to switch them to Dany's side so he could win her favor. His sad, depressing arc was the second act in Tyrion's story, and he's not done yet.

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Tyrion alive is worth more than Tyrion dead.

Dany is going to need somebody to rule the Westerlands if she wins the Iron Throne, and a Lannister would have an easier time than someone else. Just like (f)Arya in the North or Harry the Heir having the last name Arryn or the first Baratheon marrying the last Storm Queen and taking her sigil and house words, Dany could use Tyrion to maintain legitimacy with the small folk in the region. If Varys has Tyrek, then Tyrion would be a nice trump since he'd be higher in the succession. There's also the fact he is one of the few people not in the North with a respect for the Night's Watch and a personal relationship with its Lord Commander, making him useful narratively when circumstances lead Dany to the true fight happening against the Others.

Tyion in ADWD was really down, and some readers didn't like that -- and that's totally understandable. But by the end of the book the old-Tyrion is back, escaping slavery, buying his way into a sellsword company, plotting to switch them to Dany's side so he could win her favor. His sad, depressing arc was the second act in Tyrion's story, and he's not done yet.

Except Tyrion's been attainted. Yes, there is no passage that mentions this explicitly but he was found guilty of kingslaying and is widely believed to have killed Tywin. That puts him out of the line of succession. Dany could impose Tyrion upon the Westerlands but that's hardly a smooth succession, especially when Daven, Martyn and Tyrek are available.

[alienarea]

Also, that might be the real reason why the battle of Mereen was dropped from ADwD: Imagine the book had ended with Tyrion's death and Jon being presumed dead - how many readers would have stopped reading?

[Dorian Martell]

Tyrion is grrm's favorite character. He will live to see the end for that reason alone

[honeyed chicken]

Wrt Tyrion's survival, he's my favorite character.

What I'm really arguing against is the notion that any of us poster knows what's going to happen next. I keep reading variations of, "That can't happen" "he would never do that" and so on.

Call me a skeptic, or agnostic, because I don't believe any of you know what can or will happen in the next two books.

Also I happen to be much more of a believer in the ascension of LF. Most of you don't see him sitting the IT because you don't like him, but you disregard GRRM's penchant for promoting unlikeable characters to roles of prominence.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Wrt Tyrion's survival, he's my favorite character.

What I'm really arguing against is the notion that any of us poster knows what's going to happen next. I keep reading variations of, "That can't happen" "he would never do that" and so on.

Call me a skeptic, or agnostic, because I don't believe any of you know what can or will happen in the next two books.

Also I happen to be much more of a believer in the ascension of LF. Most of you don't see him sitting the IT because you don't like him, but you disregard GRRM's penchant for promoting unlikeable characters to roles of prominence.

I also don't see LF sitting the IT but not because I don't like him. My reason is more because he seems to be similar to Varys in that he works from the shadows and I see him using a puppet. That way he is at less risk of being killed, as no-one will suspect him. (provided he covers his tracks well)

[honeyed chicken]

I also don't see LF sitting the IT but not because I don't like him. My reason is more because he seems to be similar to Varys in that he works from the shadows and I see him using a puppet. That way he is at less risk of being killed, as no-one will suspect him. (provided he covers his tracks well)

Yes, he is working in the shadows now, because it suits his current situation, but when he is done binding the Vale's 20,000 swords to his side that will change.

As I was just saying elsewhere, I think his end game is to put Sansa on the IT as Queen with himself as consort and defacto leader.

Varys wants to put Daenerys on the throne with himself as counselor or something, so that'll be an interesting struggle.

Then again, the Others have "other" plans.

[Satoris T Born]

"It's all opinion, but to me, the entire series becomes unfocused after the deaths of Ned & Robert. All the intrigue about R+L is dissipated.

There are a number of elements that hold me as a reader, but none of them have the power of the initial storyline. It's the inverse of the Dune series.

After Paul Atreides triumphs and the baron dies, there's a focus vacuum. The hero is still there, but he has lost control of his great purpose which has turned into a jihad across the galaxy."

This is crazy. Ned and Robert's deaths weren't an accident, they were literary sleight of hand tricks to set the real characters into motion. The story would never revolve around Robert and Ned. That is the genius of GRRM! He made you think that so A) you would be affected when they died, and B) so you can see the actions and choices of the real main characters in the turmoil to follow. Unfocused? The story is supposed to be about the chaos of the realm at a time when they need unity more than ever- winter is coming, war and famine are ubiquitous, and leaders who get things done are absent or not in power.

Losing focus after the deaths of Ned and Robert? If this were a normal run-of-the-mill novel those two guys would have been killed by page 45.

Also, the intrigue of R+L=J is stil there, it has simply expanded. We get little clues with the Reeds, red herrings with Davos and Arya, and Howland Reed has yet to appear.

Also, We have a possible Aerys+Joanna= Tyrion Blackfyre. How is that not intriguing?

[King Zee]

Losing focus after the deaths of Ned and Robert? If this were a normal run-of-the-mill novel those two guys would have been killed by page 45.

as another poster pointed out. If Ice and Fire were a 3 act structure

Book 1 would be the prologue - the back story. The first 10 mins of the Fellowship of the Rings movie.

Book 2 -3 would be the the first Act

Books 4 and 5 would be the 2nd Act

and we are awaiting the 3rd Act.

[alienarea]

Abusive much?

I'll take the Sex Pistols and Elvis Costello, but disco?

To each his own.

I like AGOT a lot. I read through ACOK and ASOS hoping something interesting would happen, and some things did, but was that worth 900 pages?

Each book?

If you think these are the greatest pieces of lit. ever written, that's great - for you.

But grow a set.

You should not feel threatened by the contrary opinions of others. It doesn't bother me that you disagree with me, just that you've gotten childish about it.

I agree.

Also, Jon's arc at the wall would make much more sense for Benjen, and when he gets assassinated Jon's time might come. Of course we lose that scene with each direwolf pup for one of the Stark children then.

Next, ToJ works beautifully as a fever dream, a strong visual like the opening scene of 'Once Upon A Time In The West'. But if you analyse it it doesn't make sense unless you are of those who know better what GRRM really meant then GRRM.

A lot of strong scenes with some loopholes in logic in between.

[sponce]

im so scared that GRRM is gonna die before he finishes writing the series.... Frank Herbert died and people had to wait for like 20 years before they could read the rest of the Dune series.... and it wasn't as good because his son wrote it! GRRM better hurry up and finish

George isn't going to die, so don't come on these forums and say that shit.

[direwienerdog]

I don't quite understand the Wicked Sisters.

Is it some sort of trebuchet? And if so for whom the Yunkai? Who are being flung in the air and eaten by a dragon? Is it being used like Joffrey and the Antlermen or is throwing rocks and knocking defenders on the wall into the air?

Yes they seem to be catapults/ trebuchets, they are tossing corpses of pale mare victims into the city.

Wicked Sisters are GRRM shout out to Scott Lynch author of "The Gentleman Bastards" series. One of the protagonists, Jean Tannen, is armed with a matching pair of

fighting hatchets named " The Wicked Sisters".

[sponce]

"It's all opinion, but to me, the entire series becomes unfocused after the deaths of Ned & Robert. All the intrigue about R+L is dissipated.

There are a number of elements that hold me as a reader, but none of them have the power of the initial storyline. It's the inverse of the Dune series.

After Paul Atreides triumphs and the baron dies, there's a focus vacuum. The hero is still there, but he has lost control of his great purpose which has turned into a jihad across the galaxy."

This is crazy. Ned and Robert's deaths weren't an accident, they were literary sleight of hand tricks to set the real characters into motion. The story would never revolve around Robert and Ned. That is the genius of GRRM! He made you think that so A) you would be affected when they died, and B) so you can see the actions and choices of the real main characters in the turmoil to follow. Unfocused? The story is supposed to be about the chaos of the realm at a time when they need unity more than ever- winter is coming, war and famine are ubiquitous, and leaders who get things done are absent or not in power.

Losing focus after the deaths of Ned and Robert? If this were a normal run-of-the-mill novel those two guys would have been killed by page 45.

Also, the intrigue of R+L=J is stil there, it has simply expanded. We get little clues with the Reeds, red herrings with Davos and Arya, and Howland Reed has yet to appear.

Also, We have a possible Aerys+Joanna= Tyrion Blackfyre. How is that not intriguing?

How would that make Tyrion a Blackfyre. Aerys was a Targaryen, and Joanna was a Lannister..... Blackfyre was a house created By Daemon Blackfyre who was half Blackwood and Half Targaryen, I guess he could call himself Crimsonfyre or Goldfyre, but that would just be stupid, so I ask again.

How would that make Tyrion a Blackfyre?

[direwienerdog]

Wrt Tyrion's survival, he's my favorite character.

What I'm really arguing against is the notion that any of us poster knows what's going to happen next. I keep reading variations of, "That can't happen" "he would never do that" and so on.

Call me a skeptic, or agnostic, because I don't believe any of you know what can or will happen in the next two books.

Also I happen to be much more of a believer in the ascension of LF. Most of you don't see him sitting the IT because you don't like him, but you disregard GRRM's penchant for promoting unlikeable characters to roles of prominence.

Tyrion is a touchstone for almost all of the main characters in aSoIaF. He has

more to accomplish. Killing him leaves too much of a vacuum IMO.

His story line needs to be complete before death can occur. If you can point to a specific foreshadowing that even hints at Tyrion's death by all means please point it out. I've missed enough of them to not feel sure of anything that may happen. All the deaths have had at least one event that shows the possibility of it happening.

[direwienerdog]

How would that make Tyrion a Blackfyre. Aerys was a Targaryen, and Joanna was a Lannister..... Blackfyre was a house created By Daemon Blackfyre who was half Blackwood and Half Targaryen, I guess he could call himself Crimsonfyre or Goldfyre, but that would just be stupid, so I ask again.

How would that make Tyrion a Blackfyre?

It would make Tyrion a great bastard ala the Blackfyre Rebelion. Not a Blackfyre I agree, but with enough Targ blood to potentially be a factor in what many predict will be the Dance of Dragons part deux.

[mb2518]

If any of the Lannister siblings were fathered by Aerys, then it was Jaime and Cersei. The evidence is much stronger for those two. I think Tyrion being a dragon rider has been foreshadowed since AGOT. Why else is he in Mereen if not to teach Dany how to control her dragons?

[Joseph Nobles]

The death of major characters like Tyrion only happens in GRRM when there's a lot at stake in their deaths. Ned's death tore the kingdom apart, resulting in the War of Five Kings. Robb's death ended the War of Five Kings, but mixed insult with injury to the North.

Even Pycelle and Kevan weren't killed until the maximum amount of impact could be felt from their deaths. Balon's death shook the Ironborn up, enabling Euron to reach out to Dany. And Jon's fate at the Wall is so dicey precisely because it's a patented GRRM time for him to die.

But what's at stake if Tyrion dies in the Battle of Meereen? Nothing but his own potential. If Tyrion ever dies, you can bet it will be as Dany's Hand at the worst possible moment, or in some crucial role like that. I don't see Tyrion being in a position like that until the last book.

[Roughspun]

Why else is he [Tyrion] in Mereen if not to teach Dany how to control her dragons?

Dany has already learned the essentials of riding Drogon. I think by the time she meets Tyrion she won’t need him to teach her dragonriding.