[TWoW Spoilers] Worldcon reading: second Tyrion chapter

[chrisdaw]

Dont get me wrong I love Tyrion. But how come so many people seem to be so sure that he will be able to persuade Dany that he´s on her side? After all, she´s always been a big fan of prophecies, and one of Quaithes prophecies mentions that a lion (and the sun´s son, and the perfumed seneshal which i by the way believe could also very well be Varys) will come and Dany should trust none of them. Once she knows who Tyrion is, wouldn´t she recall that prophecy immediately? I mean, clearly Tyrion is a great tactician, but how might he plan to overcome that?

Again, I dont want him to die. I also do not want Selmy to die. I dont care about Victarion though. BUT. Saying that it cant be that they die a meaningless death in battle, achieving nothing is wrong in my opinion. Because thats life. You might well die before you achieve anything. And I always understood ASoIaF as a middle-age metaphor for our world.

It's a story, it's not life.

[Cala]

It's a story, it's not life.

yes and no. of course its a story. but a story without everyone surviving, living in peace and happily ever after. which is life.

[kaspar]

Thanks a lot!

[Agravayne]

It's interesting to see how the various characters view the potential success/failure of the Yunkish seige. Ser Jorah and Tyrion are the sharpest of the bunch, probably followed by TTPrince.

From a military point of view, the Yunkish were screwed when their old hero died. That left them with a ridiculous, divided command structure without any experience. The Yunkai have some good troops -- the Tolosi and the Legions from new Ghis. But the rest are clowns -- useless slave soldiers, useless mouths, vectors for sickness.

[chrisdaw]

yes and no. of course its a story. but a story without everyone surviving, living in peace and happily ever after. which is life.

It's a meticulously crafted story with purpose in the smallest of details, for Tyrion to be at risk of death in Meereen you'd have to explain how his death would further serve the story. The series is not death porn, characters don't die mid arc without narrative reason.

[Ser Skwisgaar]

It's a meticulously crafted story with purpose in the smallest of details, for Tyrion to be at risk of death in Meereen you'd have to either explain how his death would further serve the story. The series is not death porn, characters don't die mid arc without narrative reason.

Or so we keep telling ourselves. :cool4:

[AtomixIGN]

It's interesting to see how the various characters view the potential success/failure of the Yunkish seige. Ser Jorah and Tyrion are the sharpest of the bunch, probably followed by TTPrince.

From a military point of view, the Yunkish were screwed when their old hero died. That left them with a ridiculous, divided command structure without any experience. The Yunkai have some good troops -- the Tolosi and the Legions from new Ghis. But the rest are clowns -- useless slave soldiers, useless mouths, vectors for sickness.

Even Quentyn back in the beginning of Dance was trashing the Yunkish command during the siege of Astapor - which they almost lost. If the Second Sons and Stormcrows and 2k Unsullied 2k Brazen Beasts showed up it would have been over way back then.

[honeyed chicken]

LOL. This conversation is always fun. I've had it elsewhere a few dozen times, and this thread is not the proper forum. I contend that the Varamyr prologue was a clear hint at how and why Jon doesn't survive, but I can understand you are not ready to accept Jon is dead. Dead as Ned.

Personally, I find Victarian's hand to be a better argument as to how Jon might survive. We'll find out in a year or five. </threadjack>

What about the possibility of Melisandre "kissing" Jon back to life as Thoros did with Beric?

[Fire Eater]

Or so we keep telling ourselves. :cool4:

Quentyn's death results in the destruction of the potential alliance between Dany and Dorne.

Ned's death meant Robb would never yield to the Lannisters.

Cat's death results in her becoming LS.

Arys's death allows Robert Strong to join the KG as Cersei's champion in a trial by combat.

[Ded As Ned]

What about the possibility of Melisandre "kissing" Jon back to life as Thoros did with Beric?

It's a possibility for sure.

[ejhawman]

Awesome. :cheers: :bowdown:

So, now we have a bit more data. Big-picture, nothing that wasn't obviously going to happen. It's the details that draw the eye.

Probably fits just after the Barristan chapter.

The Girl General is probably the sixteen-year-old with the extras from 300. She was mentioned in one of the Quentyn chapters in ADWD.

"Wicked Sisters" is clearly the Yunkish army's affectionate name for the big trebuchets.

With the original Supreme Commander dead, the command structure of the Yunkish alliance is broken. Someone named Gorzak claims to be the new SC. The Second Sons are unsure how much support he really has, or if they should accept him as SC, or keep following the orders of the sub-commander they were put under last - the Girl General, name apparently Melessa. Brown Ben is consulting with her when Gorzak's emmisary arrives with new orders. The SS, being unsure about accepting his authority, hesitate.

They note they are cavalry, and cannot ride on water. Clearly not making the connection, the Ironmen are expected to land and the SS are to hold them at the beach.

A bit of good fortune for Yunkai: the corpses flung by the Wicked Sisters distract one dragon, who chows down on easy food until sated. Rhaegal prefers the ground-pounders. No word on how much area he has burned.

And this chapter ends with the expected switch back to Meereenese loyalty. Tyrion need not have worried, BB kept his options open all along. Or maybe Dany was an unreliable narrator and feigned anger at his turn in ADWD. Or, more likely, he worked it out with Barristan or Skahaz.

These samples just keep us slavering. AAAAAAGGGHHHH.... another year or two for the whole booooooookkkk............ :bang:

[alienarea]

Quentyn's death results in the destruction of the potential alliance between Dany and Dorne.

Ned's death meant Robb would never yield to the Lannisters.

Cat's death results in her becoming LS.

Arys's death allows Robert Strong to join the KG as Cersei's champion in a trial by combat.

Tyrion's death allows for the Lannister's to be crushed for good.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Tyrion's death allows for the Lannister's to be crushed for good.

I don't see how. If you check the books, the Lannisters are a large family with several capable heirs. Should Tyrion perish, it will simply be the end of Tywin's line.

[First of My Name]

I don't see how. If you check the books, the Lannisters are a large family with several capable heirs. Should Tyrion perish, it will simply be the end of Tywin's line.

Not necessarily. Tywin has four other heirs, though I must concede that their futures aren't looking too bright.

[honeyed chicken]

It's a meticulously crafted story with purpose in the smallest of details, for Tyrion to be at risk of death in Meereen you'd have to explain how his death would further serve the story. The series is not death porn, characters don't die mid arc without narrative reason.

As in nature, each death opens up possibilities for something/someone else to profit.

If Tyrion dies:

Sansa is a widow and free to remarry without taint.

Cersei loses her valonquar - which will probably free her from fear, and any caution that might have come with that.

Jamie - I'm less clear about.

GRRM frees himself from dealing with a popular character who has no clear roll at this point.

Everybody on this thread seems 100% certain that Dany is not going to return to Meereen. So the only characters that need to survive Meereen are the ones that are going to go with Dany.

You're going to continue to follow Victarion or Jorah or Barristan after Dany and her dragons go west? Well if one or two of the dragons are bound by Moqorro and Victarion - that could be interesting. But for the others? They're loose ends. Maybe you bring one or two of them back to Westeros, although I'm beginning to think that one is enough.

I think if you get too caught up in that "meticulously crafted" idea you lose spontaneity and the chaos inherent in life - which GRRM likes to capture in his story lines.

There's a randomness that is quite real. I try to stay away from anything that looks like foreshadowing in these books, because it's so often misleading.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Not necessarily. Tywin has four other heirs, though I must concede that their futures aren't looking too bright.

Well, it is expected that Jaime and Cersei will perish. Not to mention Jaime has made it clear he will not forsake his vows. Tommen and Myrcella are bastards born of incest, and Tyrion has no children, nor is he likely to have any for some time. I can't think of anyone else who is of Tywin's direct line (an heir of his body).

Next up would be Kevan's son Martin, and then Tyrek Lannister, but they are not of Tywin's direct line.

[Zachary Snow]

im so scared that GRRM is gonna die before he finishes writing the series.... Frank Herbert died and people had to wait for like 20 years before they could read the rest of the Dune series.... and it wasn't as good because his son wrote it! GRRM better hurry up and finish

[First of My Name]

im so scared that GRRM is gonna die before he finishes writing the series.... Frank Herbert died and people had to wait for like 20 years before they could read the rest of the Dune series.... and it wasn't as good because his son wrote it! GRRM better hurry up and finish

Just so you know, discussion of GRRM's health is off-limits on the board, as some posters are Martin's friends or family. I myself have made that mistake too, until someone pointed it out to me.

[Satoris T Born]

As in nature, each death opens up possibilities for something/someone else to profit.

If Tyrion dies:

Sansa is a widow and free to remarry without taint.

Cersei loses her valonquar - which will probably free her from fear, and any caution that might have come with that.

Jamie - I'm less clear about.

GRRM frees himself from dealing with a popular character who has no clear roll at this point.

Everybody on this thread seems 100% certain that Dany is not going to return to Meereen. So the only characters that need to survive Meereen are the ones that are going to go with Dany.

You're going to continue to follow Victarion or Jorah or Barristan after Dany and her dragons go west? Well if one or two of the dragons are bound by Moqorro and Victarion - that could be interesting. But for the others? They're loose ends. Maybe you bring one or two of them back to Westeros, although I'm beginning to think that one is enough.

I think if you get too caught up in that "meticulously crafted" idea you lose spontaneity and the chaos inherent in life - which GRRM likes to capture in his story lines.

There's a randomness that is quite real. I try to stay away from anything that looks like foreshadowing in these books, because it's so often misleading.

No way Tyrion should be considered a character with "no clear roll", or that he can be discarded with everyone else in Mereen. The Mereeneese knot wouldn't have been so difficult to bust if all these guys being there was for nothing. This prediction seems to be under the assumption that Dany is the only important character. No way. Tyrion is a secret Targ (as evidenced by the "liberties Aerys took with Joanna, his mother dying in childbirth, and a few other random clues). But also, he has always been a main character. If anything, it's been foreshadowed that he is going to do something with dragons at some point. I don't really think Dany is just going to up and fly back to Westeros. For one thing it's miles upon miles away. For another, she needs ships....which is where Victarion comes in. And Victarion is not returningh- he died in his cabin in DANCE WITH DRAGONS. He's a R'hllor zombie a la BEric Dondarrion.

In fact, it's hard to predict anything at this point- everyone assumed Dany would be setting sail by the end of Dance, if not already on it. The way it's unfolding, the point fo the story might not be her invasion, but instead her unfortunate missed chances. Maybe reminiscent of Napoleon's exile and failed attempts to rise again. Just because we want heroes to ride dragons and fight the Others doesn't mean it will happen. Remember when we all originally thought Ned would be leading the charge through this whole series?

[mbuehner]

It's a possibility for sure.

I like the idea of Jon just not being killed because they botched the assassination. He wakes up being cared for with 6 non-fatal stab wounds and a pissed off dire wolf at his feet. That, to me, would be the real twist.