[TWoW Spoilers] Worldcon reading: second Tyrion chapter

[MikeDC]

George isn't going to die, so don't come on these forums and say that shit.

http://vimeo.com/8198459

[honeyed chicken]

Speaking of unsourced quotes, there seems to be another one floating around where GRRM has said that he won't do any POV characters being raped. Assuming this is correct, it seems to mean raped "on-screen," or during real time in the POV chapter, since several POV characters have been raped or sexually abused "off-screen": Theon by Ramsay, Cersei by Robert, Aeron by Euron,

Ramsay "raped" Theon??

Euron "raped" Aeron??

Standard definition or?? do I have to go back and reread these. Did I miss something?

I think people here are blowing up the 'GRRM loves Tyrion and sees himself in in Tyrion' thing way too much. And just because he loves Tyrion...dose not mean age 80,girl's mouth on cock etc. In fact ,he might give Tyrion a glorious death in the story if anything.Provide a closure within the story for ones most favorite character is actually better than saying 'happily ever after'.

Fom the PW on, I have no idea what to make of Tyrion's meandering story. It reads like a, "let's try this. And this. And hey we've never seen that done before" approach. Parts of it are interesting, but it's getting less so.

Either Tyrion is going to get together with Dany and the dragons or he's going to die, is my guess.

I think the murderousness of George R.R. Martin is a tad overestimated on these boards. I don't think he does it that often or that randomly. We've had two perspective characters die for real maybe? A handful of second tier characters. A ton of other characters. I usually see it coming for a main character, but hope against it. I mainly think he does it POWERFULLY. Which I love. I see no special reason that Tyrion or any Stark has to die, but obviously I don't know the story. If they do, it will be either epic or a punch in the face. And I will love it. Eventually.

There are POVs and then there are povs.

At least 5 have died by my count, 3 of them major: Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, Jon Snow (dead till proved otherwise). The minor ones are Arys Oakheart and Quentyn Martell and I may still be missing one or two.probably missing one or two.

And that "handful" of second tier characters:

1) Robb Stark

King Robert Baratheon

Lysa Arryn

Jon Arryn

5) Tywin Lannister

Kevan Lannister

Viserys Targaryen

Renly Baratheon

Hoster Tully

10) Syrio Forel ?

Stannis Bartheon ?

Dareon

Maester Aemon Targaryen

Jeor Mormont

15) Khal Drogo

Mirri Maz Duur

Ygritte

Jory Cassel

Maester Luwin

20) Rodrik Cassel

Marillion

Oberyn Martell

Sandor Clegane

Varamyr

25) Balon Greyjoy

Joffrey Baratheon

Donal Noye

Janos Slynt

Pycelle

30) Shae

Benjen Stark ?

Yoren

Craster

Amory Lorch

35) Rattleshirt

Beric Dondarrion

Septa Mordane

Vargo Hoat

Cleos Frey

40) Rorge

Biter

That's 34 for sure plus 3 questionable ones. Not what I call a handful.

It's easy to lose track because there are so many (and I keep thinking of more)

[Heyo Winter Comin']

Ramsay "raped" Theon??

Euron "raped" Aeron??

Standard definition or?? do I have to go back and reread these. Did I miss something?

Fom the PW on, I have no idea what to make of Tyrion's meandering story. It reads like a, "let's try this. And this. And hey we've never seen that done before" approach. Parts of it are interesting, but it's getting less so.

Either Tyrion is going to get together with Dany and the dragons or he's going to die, is my guess.

There are POVs and then there are povs.

At least 4 have died by my count, 3 of them major: Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, Jon Snow (dead till proved otherwise). The minor one is Arys Oakheart and I'm probably missing one or two.

And that "handful" of second tier characters:

1) Robb Stark

King Robert Baratheon

Lysa Arryn

Jon Arryn

5) Tywin Lannister

Kevan Lannister

Viserys Targaryen

Renly Baratheon

Hoster Tully

10) Syrio Forel ?

Stannis Bartheon ?

Dareon

Maester Aemon Targaryen

Jeor Mormount

15) Khal Drogo

Mirri Maz Duur

Ygritte

Jory Cassel

Maester Luwin

20) Rodrik Cassel

Marillion

Oberyn Martell

Sandor Clegane

Varamyr

25) Balon Greyjoy

Joffrey Baratheon

That's 24 for sure plus 2 questionable ones. Not what I call a handful.

It's easy to lose track because there are so many.

With regards to Tyrion's story, I've always felt it reads the most like an 'adventure'. He goes to the Wall, fights mountain men, is imprisoned in the infamous sky cells, befriends mountain men, fights in a battle, defends a city in a siege, is accused of killing the King!, is imprisoned again, escapes, travels to Essos, gets captured by slavers!, and then becomes a sellsword. I know that just sort of reads as a rough synopsis of what his story is so far, but more than any other POV I feel his story reads as this adventure that would sound really good when written down, like the tales of Sinbad or something.

[aryagonnakill]

Ramsay "raped" Theon??

Euron "raped" Aeron??

Standard definition or?? do I have to go back and reread these. Did I miss something?

Euron raping Aeron is strongly hinted at in his chapters, and by GRRM's comments when he offered to read the aeron chapter when he read first or second Arrianne chapter, he said that the aeron chapter had some seriously messed up stuff in it. As for Theon, I don't recall a line that actually insinuated that he was butt fucked, like it was insinuated that he was castrated, however it seems a real possibility, and I think we can say with a fair amount of certainty that Theon blew Ramsay on his wedding night.

[First of My Name]

Euron raping Aeron is strongly hinted at in his chapters, and by GRRM's comments when he offered to read the aeron chapter when he read first or second Arrianne chapter, he said that the aeron chapter had some seriously messed up stuff in it. As for Theon, I don't recall a line that actually insinuated that he was butt fucked, like it was insinuated that he was castrated, however it seems a real possibility, and I think we can say with a fair amount of certainty that Theon blew Ramsay on his wedding night.

Explain that last sentence please?

[aryagonnakill]

I'm not with my books but in Theon chapter in winds he recalls that he and Jeyne had to do something he doesn't want to think about on their wedding night, and he says it by saying us, meaning Jeyne did it too so I always assumed he wasn't referring to eating Jeyne out, but blowing Ramsay.

[PatrickStormborn]

if you are going to use a modern definition of rape, then Cersei is a rapist too. She uses her position to force Lancel and the Kettleblacks to sleep with her.

I'm not using a modern definition. Dany did not consent to some of the sex she was having; therefore it was rape.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I'm not with my books but in Theon chapter in winds he recalls that he and Jeyne had to do something he doesn't want to think about on their wedding night, and he says it by saying us, meaning Jeyne did it too so I always assumed he wasn't referring to eating Jeyne out, but blowing Ramsay.

I think you misread that part. Ramsay ordered Theon to warm his bride up for him. Theon lamented that he was no longer a man and that there was only one way he could do as Ramsay asked. And that was to give Jeyne oral sex. I'm not sure how you came up with Theon going down on Ramsay.

Although I do find Ramsay's relationship with Theon to be of a homosexual sort. If you have seen the movie Pulp Fiction, you will know what I am talking about.

In the scene in which, Bruce Willis and Ving Rhames are being held captive by two Red Neck racists. The racists held a creature much like Theon called "The Gimp." It was kept in a cage, dressed all in S & M leather, and had clearly been raped into submission by the two racists. One man would commit the rape, while the other watched and got himself off. Everytime I think of Theon and Ramsay, that particularly gruesome scene comes to mind.

[total1402]

I really think this book is going to become ADWD part 3. We have 2 Arriane simply setting her story up and we have, what, 6 chapters to start the fighting in Mereen? All so they can link up with a character who has been sent thousands of miles away on a separate arc with the Dothraki? This is like when Faile gets kidnapped in Wheel of Time and we spend a series of books trying to get her back and planning to do this. TBH I don't think this battle has the weight or importance of the Blackwater. This is just an excuse to kill off characters and possibly a dragon; its not going to stop Dany getting to Westeros. So why have that many chapters devoted to it? I really do think that the first half of Winds is going to be just this battle regards the POV characters in that area minus Dany.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I'm not using a modern definition. Dany did not consent to some of the sex she was having; therefore it was rape.

Modern and legal definitions of rape are pretty much the same in what they require. The legal definition is focused on the use of physical force to compel penetration. Lack of consent is the other essential element.

From the books and the show, both elements of rape are lacking. Dany was afraid, reluctant, and hysterical, but her consent was still implied. There is no evidence from the show or the books that Drogon took Dany by force.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I really think this book is going to become ADWD part 3. We have 2 Arriane simply setting her story up and we have, what, 6 chapters to start the fighting in Mereen? All so they can link up with a character who has been sent thousands of miles away on a separate arc with the Dothraki? This is like when Faile gets kidnapped in Wheel of Time and we spend a series of books trying to get her back and planning to do this. TBH I don't think this battle has the weight or importance of the Blackwater. This is just an excuse to kill off characters and possibly a dragon; its not going to stop Dany getting to Westeros.

I feel you on the Wheel of Time formula. It is starting to seem that GRRM might not be able to finish in two more books. I would really hate to see Brandon Sanderson finishing ASOIAF.

[The Grey Wolf]

The Martin has said he will never let anyone else finish the series if he [God forbid] dies. Also, this is exactly the worry I highlighted in a post a couple of pages back. We already have 6 POV chapters about the Battle of Meeren and there is going to be at least three more most likely [Victarion sounding the horn, Tyrion and Barristan's reaction], not to mention we also have right off the bat the Battle in the Ice with Stannis, which should be at least 3-4 chapters. Together there's likely to be around over a dozen chapters dedicated to just these two battles and their fallout in the beginning of the book. How Martin is going to put all that plus Cersei's trial, Aeron's revolt, JonCon's taking of Storm's End, etc. and move the plot forward/bring it together is a question that makes me once again marvel at the complexity of the world/story he has built.

[PatrickStormborn]

Modern and legal definitions of rape are pretty much the same in what they require. The legal definition is focused on the use of physical force to compel penetration. Lack of consent is the other essential element.

From the books and the show, both elements of rape are lacking. Dany was afraid, reluctant, and hysterical, but her consent was still implied. There is no evidence from the show or the books that Drogon took Dany by force.

You're wrong. Dany was in pain, and Drogo came and had sex with her without asking her, and without trying to please her. Dany did NOT consent to THAT.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The Martin has said he will never let anyone else finish the series if he [God forbid] dies. Also, this is exactly the worry I highlighted in a post a couple of pages back. We already have 6 POV chapters about the Battle of Meeren and there is going to be at least three more most likely [Victarion sounding the horn, Tyrion and Barristan's reaction], not to mention we also have right off the bat the Battle in the Ice with Stannis, which should be at least 3-4 chapters. Together there's likely to be around over a dozen chapters dedicated to just these two battles and their fallout in the beginning of the book. How Martin is going to put all that plus Cersei's trial, Aeron's revolt, JonCon's taking of Storm's End, etc. and move the plot forward/bring it together is a question that makes me once again marvel at the complexity of the world/story he has built.

Not to mention:

1. The Others invasion

2. Possible religious war between the Faith of the Seven and the Red God.

3. The fates of characters like Justin Massey and Edric Storm.

4. The Second Dance of the Dragons

5. Stark Restoration

If GRRM can pull it all off in two more books, he is without a doubt this generations Tolkien. Maybe he will write two massive books to close out the series.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You're wrong. Dany was in pain, and Drogo came and had sex with her without asking her, and without trying to please her. Dany did NOT consent to THAT.

I don't want to bog down the thread with this, so I will just agree to disagree with you. I guess Dany came to love her brutal rapist with all her little raped heart.

[History of Westeros]

Not to mention:

1. The Others invasion

2. Possible religious war between the Faith of the Seven and the Red God.

3. The fates of characters like Justin Massey and Edric Storm.

4. The Second Dance of the Dragons

5. Stark Restoration

If GRRM can pull it all off in two more books, he is without a doubt this generations Tolkien. Maybe he will write two massive books to close out the series.

All true. Even GRRM's wife thinks it will be 3 more books, and she said that quite a while ago. Pretty sure she said it would be 8 books before even Dance was released.

[Fire Eater]

The first rider to come up is dressed in golden armor, this could be a reference to Jaime who is known for wearing golden armor. The second rider asks the Second Sons to defend the Wicked Sister, which could be a reference to Cersei.The Tattered Prince could be a reference to Aegon, prince from Pentos. The Second Sons then switch sides, and fight against the Yunkai'i on Dany's side.

This could symbolize Tyrion turning on his family, mainly his siblings, and Aegon and fighting on Dany's side.

[First of My Name]

The first rider to come up is dressed in golden armor, this could be a reference to Jaime who is known for wearing golden armor. The second rider asks the Second Sons to defend the Wicked Sister, which could be a reference to Cersei.prince and his father, Illyrio, is from Pentos. The Second Sons then switch sides, and fight against the Yunkai'i on Dany's side.

This could symbolize Tyrion turning on his family, mainly his siblings, and fighting on Dany's side.

Finally, a post related to the OP again. This thread got derailed big time.

I like the symbolism you're onto, FE. This looks like something right up GRRM's street.

[geogus]

The Martin has said he will never let anyone else finish the series if he [God forbid] dies. Also, this is exactly the worry I highlighted in a post a couple of pages back. We already have 6 POV chapters about the Battle of Meeren and there is going to be at least three more most likely [Victarion sounding the horn, Tyrion and Barristan's reaction], not to mention we also have right off the bat the Battle in the Ice with Stannis, which should be at least 3-4 chapters. Together there's likely to be around over a dozen chapters dedicated to just these two battles and their fallout in the beginning of the book. How Martin is going to put all that plus Cersei's trial, Aeron's revolt, JonCon's taking of Storm's End, etc. and move the plot forward/bring it together is a question that makes me once again marvel at the complexity of the world/story he has built.

I think WoW will be mostly the battles and the aftermatc + cersei + Aegon.

of course there are other plots, such as Jaime and Brienne, but they could just be held captive for most of the books, saving chapter.

There a re a lot of other chacaters, that we will most likely just hear say what hapend with them. Here, i think would be Edmuere, Balckfish, Jeyne Westerling, Priat Pre, Doran, Darkstar, everthing in the reach and dragonstone , Aureen Watersand so far.

WoW will put the characthers in their final positions for ADoS, im pretty sure GRRM can finish everything in 2 books

[geogus]

The Martin has said he will never let anyone else finish the series if he [God forbid] dies.

Source?