R+L = J v 62

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Oh, it's not that, I think... :lol:

:uhoh:

Anyway ma'am I love your sig!

[Ghost's Shadow]

Poor Bran. :crying:

[Ygrain]

In the present Rhaegar thread, someone suggested a parallel between Selyse's support of Stannis' fulfillment of the prophecy even at the cost of him bedding Mel, and Elia's potential support of Rhaegar's affair with Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. In case that the parallel is valid, I started to wonder who Rhaegar's "Mel" might have been - and here I don't mean shadowbabies but source of prophetic visions and guide in acting on the prophecy. There aren't many candidates available - I can basically think only about two, Bloodraven and Ghost of the High Heart.

Bloodraven, IMHO, would be difficult to get in touch with, but what about the Ghost of the High Heart? How long has she been known to haunt High Heart, and did she ever return to mourn Jenny at Summerhall? If that might be the case, then Rhaegar's visits to the place without any company might have had yet another purpose.

[nirolo]

Apologies for the interruption, but does any one know if the text mentions where Rickard was when he found out about Lyanna's abduction?

Also, does the text specify how long Rhaegar stayed with Lyanna in the tower of joy?

[Ygrain]

Apologies for the interruption, but does any one know if the text mentions where Rickard was when he found out about Lyanna's abduction?

Also, does the text specify how long Rhaegar stayed with Lyanna in the tower of joy?

Nope. There is zero information on either part.

[Ser Creighton]

I believe that if you go back and reread these examples thinking "skin-changer" with the exception of Varamyr and the Stark children there are no "wargs". I did not say that a greenseer was not a skin-changer, I said not all skin-changers are wargs. It seems that wolves are a special circumstance.

Now, once again, there is skin-changing.

There is greenseer.

One in a thousand can skin-change, and one in a thousand skin-changers are greenseers. Skin-changers are not necessarily wargs. ;)

Right yes I understand that, but the simple fact is warg is a general term thrown around, including Martin who named the Stark children all as wargs. I have not seen a special example of a wolf only skin changer, a pig only skin changer yes. Bran and Arya by your definition are skin changers and not Wargs. But Martin says they are wargs. So all I am saying is that is a general term that is used at times in a non specific manner in the books and outside the books.

But how does any of this relate to Bloodraven being able to take over more than one type of animal? Cause that was the subject. Someone said Bloodraven could only use ravens, and I said no. Skin changing and warging is just semantics.

Warg is anglicized norse term, and refers to 3 specific wolves who are evil.

What is the lamp

which light up men

and flames engulf it

and wargs grasp after it always

The answer is the sun which Skoll and Hatti chase after, the sun and the moon.

According to Martin wargs are skinchangers who inhabit the minds of wolves and dogs. It's not just wolf specific to him. All wargs are in fact skinchangers but not all skinchangers are wargs, and all greenseers are skinchangers. They are all in fact related, just some skinchangers are more powerful than others, it's like some strange evolutionary chain.

In 2007 Martin said all the Stark children were "full wargs" further adding to the confusion. What is a full warg compared to a warg? The show itself decided not to use skinchangers and just go with warging. Which is why I say it is a general term, as Martin himself seems confused by the subject and definition.

The first use of Wargs in the books is in kings in which Wargs are evil wolves and Robb supposedly had an army of them.

"Warg , shapchanger, beastling."

"There are giants and Wargs in the frost fangs."

"They have wargs and mammoths" seems to refer to an animal

Bran refers to himself as both a warg and a skinchanger in the same passage of swords.

"The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are. And the greatest of them could wear the skin of any beast that flies or swims, or crawls, and could look through the eyes of a weirwood as well, and see through the truth that lies beneath the world." Swords

I am not saying you are wrong about the definition of the word warg in the series, I am saying Martin has been inconsistent in it's use. So it does not bother me when someone says Warg or skinchanger, since Martin does it himself.

[nirolo]

Nope. There is zero information on either part.

So we have no idea whether the news of Lyanna's abduction reached Rickard or Brandon first?

ETA:

I'll take an educated guess if someone has one.

[Ygrain]

So we have no idea whether the news of Lyanna's abduction reached Rickard or Brandon first?

Exactly. We do not even know how Brandon learned - which is rather curious, as he was travelling, hence not by ravenmail; either a messenger or coming over some rumours.

What are you hinting at, that Rickard's lack of response may have been cause by the fact that he received the news only after Brandon did? Quite possible, as well, but there is notable lack of response even afterwards - I mean, his daughter gets abducted, his son imprisoned, and yet not a word.

Actually, there is not a word from anyone over Lyanna's abduction - Hoster, Kevan, whomever. One would think that all high lords would be enraged, thinking that it might be their daughters violated next time, yet, not the case. Did everyone simply presume that being abducted by the Prince Charming is so awesome that Lyanna couldn't possibly resist? Or did they think/knew she went willingly, and no-one ever cotnradicted the official version afterwards so as not to get on Robert's bad side?

[nirolo]

Exactly. We do not even know how Brandon learned - which is rather curious, as he was travelling, hence not by ravenmail; either a messenger or coming over some rumours.

What are you hinting at, that Rickard's lack of response may have been cause by the fact that he received the news only after Brandon did? Quite possible, as well, but there is notable lack of response even afterwards - I mean, his daughter gets abducted, his son imprisoned, and yet not a word.

Actually, there is not a word from anyone over Lyanna's abduction - Hoster, Kevan, whomever. One would think that all high lords would be enraged, thinking that it might be their daughters violated next time, yet, not the case. Did everyone simply presume that being abducted by the Prince Charming is so awesome that Lyanna couldn't possibly resist? Or did they think/knew she went willingly, and no-one ever cotnradicted the official version afterwards so as not to get on Robert's bad side?

For some reason I have the impression that Rickard received the news first and then followed by Brandon. :dunno:

Where exactly was Lyanna when she was abducted? Anyone know?

[Ser Creighton]

Ser Creighton,

What if Sansa decided to stay with Tyrion in the end?

(Is there something wrong with the board? I've been having issues with quoting. I had to edit this to ask you this question).

Stay? You mean what happens when Sansa Lannister reunites with her long lost true love? It will just like the end of "The princess bride." Jon will show up and be all like "hello, my name is Jon Snow you killed my father, prepare to die." LF will be like eeeek and run the other way, crazy chase ensues, Tyrion will outsmart Harry Humperdink and will be like you never said man and wife. Sansa will be like Tyrion my true love get me out of here, Tyrion will say "as you wish." Jon kills LF, Harry is left tied to a chair, Hodor shows up with 4 white horses, big kiss scene, que Mark Knopfler song. The end

Of course Tyrion will have to do the whole best Jon with steel thing and Jon of course uses a Valyrian sword made for his father like figure. Then he has to best Hodor with Strength which he will this is Tyrion we are laking about. Then he has to outsmart Vizzini ummm I mean Varys. Inconceivable Varys will say as they have a battle of wits.

I imagine Tyrion dreams the scene would look just like this http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DU_eZmEiyTo0

Never go against a unick when death is on the line.

[Ygrain]

For some reason I have the impression that Rickard received the news first and then followed by Brandon. :dunno:

Where exactly was Lyanna when she was abducted? Anyone know?

I'm afraid no information, either.

With so many facts missing, those hate threads are even more frustrating.

[MtnLion]

Ser Creighton, let me try to be precise, yet again. Skin changers have an ability that is limited. Cats and wolves/dogs are a special case that not all skin changers can achieve. Green seeing is another ability of skin changers, it is unrelated to their abilities as a skin changer. Until such time as we have proof that Brandon Rivers can skin change with a wolf/dog, he is NOT a warg. Is that clear?

ETA: The show only uses warg to refer to wargs, they do not refer to the Mormonts, or any other skin changers we know of, yet.

[tf13]

Is it explicitly stated whether or not we know the origin of Jon's naming? Assuming that Jon's mother didn't name him, it'd have been Ned, naming him after Jon Arryn, presumably?

[Ygrain]

Is it explicitly stated whether or not we know the origin of Jon's naming? Assuming that Jon's mother didn't name him, it'd have been Ned, naming him after Jon Arryn, presumably?

There is a SSM, stating that "Dany was named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned".

[nirolo]

I'm afraid no information, either.

With so many facts missing, those hate threads are even more frustrating.

So do we know how long it took for the news of Lyanna's abduction to reach Brandon?

[Ser Leftwich]

Possibly interesting fact I just noticed, at the Brandon-Petyr duel, Edmure acted as Brandon's squire.

This could mean that (1) Ethan Glover was either not yet Brandon's squire or (2) was not with him at Riverrun at the time or the more boring (3) was there, but let Edmure do the honors for some family/honor/brother-in-law to be reason.

[Ygrain]

So do we know how long it took for the news of Lyanna's abduction to reach Brandon?

At the risk of sounding repetitive... nope. We don't know nothin'. - Frustrating, isn't it, to know so little about the event which reshaped Westeros so profoundly.

Possibly interesting fact I just noticed, at the Brandon-Petyr duel, Edmure acted as Brandon's squire.

This could mean that (1) Ethan Glover was either not yet Brandon's squire or (2) was not with him at Riverrun at the time or the more boring (3) was there, but let Edmure do the honors for some family/honor/brother-in-law to be reason.

A good catch. Perhaps related to that mysterious business that Brandon went to attend prior his wedding?

[Prince of the North]

In the present Rhaegar thread, someone suggested a parallel between Selyse's support of Stannis' fulfillment of the prophecy even at the cost of him bedding Mel, and Elia's potential support of Rhaegar's affair with Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. In case that the parallel is valid, I started to wonder who Rhaegar's "Mel" might have been - and here I don't mean shadowbabies but source of prophetic visions and guide in acting on the prophecy. There aren't many candidates available - I can basically think only about two, Bloodraven and Ghost of the High Heart.

Bloodraven, IMHO, would be difficult to get in touch with, but what about the Ghost of the High Heart? How long has she been known to haunt High Heart, and did she ever return to mourn Jenny at Summerhall? If that might be the case, then Rhaegar's visits to the place without any company might have had yet another purpose.

I have wondered about this as well and I think there's a possibility that Bloodraven and Rhaegar could have been communicating about the prophecy, etc. I could be wrong but I thought there was some indication that Rhaegar and Maester Aemon were communicating trying to decipher the prophecy. If this was happening then Bloodraven might have been present at the Wall as well and, thus, may have been in on it. After all, I don't know of any info about just when Bloodraven disappeared. Did he disappear before Rhaegar was even born or when he was still quite young or was he around the Wall long enough to be present when Aemon and Rhaegar could have been in communication? Because if Bloodraven was around I would speculate that he would have been talking with Aemon about such things as well. I think it's a pretty safe bet that Bloodraven, even then, was a bit of a studious sort himself and, of course, we have strong reason to believe he was into sorcery/magic, too ;)

I could be misremembering things here - just a thought :dunno:

[nirolo]

At the risk of sounding repetitive... nope. We don't know nothin'. - Frustrating, isn't it, to know so little about the event which reshaped Westeros so profoundly.

:lol:

Being repetitive carries a risk? Nawww!

[Alia of the knife]

In the present Rhaegar thread, someone suggested a parallel between Selyse's support of Stannis' fulfillment of the prophecy even at the cost of him bedding Mel, and Elia's potential support of Rhaegar's affair with Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy. In case that the parallel is valid, I started to wonder who Rhaegar's "Mel" might have been - and here I don't mean shadowbabies but source of prophetic visions and guide in acting on the prophecy. There aren't many candidates available - I can basically think only about two, Bloodraven and Ghost of the High Heart.

Bloodraven, IMHO, would be difficult to get in touch with, but what about the Ghost of the High Heart? How long has she been known to haunt High Heart, and did she ever return to mourn Jenny at Summerhall? If that might be the case, then Rhaegar's visits to the place without any company might have had yet another purpose.

I don't know, but I wonder too if Rhaegar had envisioned Lyanna, and thought at first Elia was that girl until he met Lyanna?

As for Mel and a historical parallel, she puts me in mind of an attractive, and female Rasputin given her influence over Sylyse and Stannis.

Mel, like Rasputin, is a "holy" woman with undue influence over the Berantheons and may be a systemic sign of Stannis and Sylyse being out of touch the way the Romonovs were perceived as being, and complicit in the downfall of the Berantheons.