R+L = J v 62

[Dead Wolf]

Which is why I wondered how long the raven had been so talkative. If the animal has only started saying such pointed things since Jon arrived, then that just suggests that the raven (Bloodraven) is interested in keeping tabs on Jon specifically, and not just interested in the Watch.

As for him not visiting Jon in his dreams, two things.

1. He came to Bran because Bran's a greenseer. Jon is not a greenseer. It's implied that he has something in mind for Bran, but again, that does not mean that he can't also be interested in Jon. I don't see what is so hard to comprehend about that.

2. Most of what Bran saw began when he was in his coma. Hmm, if only Jon were to undergo some sort of trauma that might put him in a similar situation ... oh wait.

In any case, saying that he definitely has no interest in Jon just because he doesn't visit him in his dreams (never mind that Jon does have prophetic dreams involving the Winterfell crypts and holding a flaming sword) just seems ridiculous to me.

"Your blood makes you a greenseer" said Bloodraven to Bran. Jon shares that blood. If all the Stark kids share that blood, why haven't they all been visited? Why only Bran, unless he was the most important of them? And why make him a stronger warg? In Jon's dream about the wildlings and his brothers, he's armored in black ice. Dany has a dream about melting her enemies on the Trident with dragonflame.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"Your blood makes you a greenseer" said Bloodraven to Bran. Jon shares that blood. If all the Stark kids share that blood, why haven't they all been visited? Why only Bran, unless he was the most important of them? And why make him a stronger warg? In Jon's dream about the wildlings and his brothers, he's armored in black ice. Dany has a dream about melting her enemies on the Trident with dragonflame.

All greenseers are skinchangers but not all skinchangers are greenseers. Only one skinchanger in a thousand is a greenseer. The kids share the same "blood" that makes them skinchangers, but that doesn't mean that they're all greenseers. And obviously if Bran is the only greenseer and was in a goddamn coma, that could very easily explain why he was contacted first.

I don't give a shit what Dany dreams of.

Try harder, seriously.

[Alia of the knife]

Who are you and what have you done with Alia? I know what Alia looks like, your pic is totally different from hers. Are you a spy? An assassin? Do you work for homeland security? Are you the return of the whig party? Where is Alia damn it?

I don't really think Ned was ever suppose to be perceived as stupid, just some fans wanting to hate. I never look at Ned in a different light. A guy who got put in horrible situation after horrible situation. Ned didn't lose in KL because he was stupid, he lost because the deck was stacked totally against him the moment he arrived.

Neds deal was to help Robert, but early on we see that the trust Robert had for anything was gone and he was not listening to Ned. The first thing Robert should of done was place his own people in charge. But he only took half measures in that respect. Renly was a yes man and incompetent, Stannis hated him, and he brought in Jon Arryn his one good move. Leaving Pycelle, and Varys and brining in an unkown in LF were huge mistakes. He didn't know LF and neither did Jon, Varys lies for a living, and Pycelle showed himself to be a Lannister man at the gates of the sacking of KL.

The closest thing Ned had to an ally in KL was Selmy, and Robert was not listening to either of them. His own brother fled (Stannis) and Robert did not read this as a sign. Robert knew who was plotting against him and for some odd reason ignored Neds advice, the man he brought in to advise him because he said he trusted him. Ned gave up on the Job and quit, yet was forced by Robert to remain after Robert said he no longer wanted him.

Renly betrayed Ned, LF who Ned listened to because of advise from his wife betrayed Ned, and Robert screwed up big time. Ned had no network of spies and people he was bribing in KL, everyone else had established Networks years before Ned got there. All Renly had to do was support Ned, but he got greedy and wanted everything. If he supports Ned, then Ned would have had the Tully's, Tyrells, Baratheons, and Starks. Even LF wouldn't go against that combined force.

As for Ned and Arthur Dayne, well generally I think everyone excepts Neds word that Howland saved his life from Arthur. I don't know what he did, but it is generally excepted for that reason.

I guess I will stay one of the few that still thinks Ned had great value and that he was smarter than given credit for. In the age of the over plot armored character Ned was anything but that. Some fans act as if Ned could of gotten out of his situation. No he couldn't, he was going to die, that was the authors plan. Lyanna, Ned, Rhaegar, Robert, Jon Arryn, were marked day one. There was no happy ending there, no "but only if they had." There is no "but only if" there is no life altering choice, they were dead the moment the the author put pen to paper. If a character had just done this or that it would have changed everything. No it wouldn't cause the author wants them dead. Oh if Robb had only not married "And. And. And." he was going to die, no changing that, Martin wanted him dead.

Jon, Jon has one set of parents, from day one those parents have never changed, that's the authors plan. And it's not the most major secret in the books cause the author wants Jon to be the son of a fisher woman or wet nurse. Yes here are the two most anti-climatic mothers I can think of, I have been building up to this moment for over 20 years and as the author I want to make sure it's anti climactic, cause that's every authors dream to build something up for decades and then let it fall flat. OMG he is Wylla's son, OMG, OMG, OMG, and ummm well no place to go with the story from there. Maybe he can meet her and be like so how is he wet nursing going? Do you enjoy your work? Well it was nice to meet you.

Haaaa, I just changed my avatar for a new one.

And agreed on Ned, I think those who don't care for the Starks try and shortchange them, especially Ned, though I do have my issues with him at times where he chooses to lay his loyalties.

Maybe it's because I'm a Capricorn, but if Robert had told me to kill my daughters pet to appease Cersei, I would have told him to do it himself and turned back around for Winterfell.

Still, Ned is a tragically heroic character.

[Alia of the knife]

On the subject of whether Rhaegar dreamed of Lyanna before he met her, (and apologies to the poster who asked the question for I can't remember), I think it's entirely possible.

That may have been part of the prophesy he foresaw in which he had to become a warrior- to fight the greatest warrior for the woman he loved. In seeing her at Harrenhal, and knowing Robert, his cousin, was her betrothed, he recognized the reality of his visions.

In crowning Lyanna, he was acknowledging their fate, but perhaps also the very human part of him crowned her to spite his father, or to even manipulate Robert into breaking the betrothal given the ramifications and innuendo of this act.

[Ygrain]

On the subject of whether Rhaegar dreamed of Lyanna before he met her, (and apologies to the poster who asked the question for I can't remember), I think it's entirely possible.

That may have been part of the prophesy he foresaw in which he had to become a warrior- to fight the greatest warrior for the woman he loved. In seeing her at Harrenhal, and knowing Robert, his cousin, was her betrothed, he recognized the reality of his visions.

In crowning Lyanna, he was acknowledging their fate, but perhaps also the very human part of him crowned her to spite his father, or to even manipulate Robert into breaking the betrothal given the ramifications and innuendo of this act.

That was me :-)

I've also been wondering whether we haven't been given the main clue to the kidnapping in the Dany-Daario parallel - abduction as means of preventing Lyanna's unwanted marriage to Robert. If she disappears and spends some time in Rhaegar's company (perhaps even gets pregnant), there is no way she might ever become the lady of Stormlands.

[Ser Creighton]

Haaaa, I just changed my avatar for a new one.

And agreed on Ned, I think those who don't care for the Starks try and shortchange them, especially Ned, though I do have my issues with him at times where he chooses to lay his loyalties.

Maybe it's because I'm a Capricorn, but if Robert had told me to kill my daughters pet to appease Cersei, I would have told him to do it himself and turned back around for Winterfell.

Still, Ned is a tragically heroic character.

You know that is just a bad moment. Poor lady, I get why Ned did it, Lady was family, I held my dog why while she was put down after 14 years and had it done at my home. It's a family moment. Yeah Ned made his mistakes but I get a lot of them, I was way to loyal to one my childhood friends and he almost shot me twice in fits of blind rage. I think most people have been loyal to a bad friend more than they should at one point in a life or another. Robert seems like one those really fun guys, who is also totally self centered and self absorbed and has little regard for the consequences of his own actions. I can see why Ned cared about Robert but you can also see it was a one sided relationship in a lot of ways.

Roberts idea of love was all emotion and idea it lacked actual depth, meaning and significance. Robert focuses on his pain over Lyanna, he was the one who was hurt, Ned actually had to remind him that she was his sister. That's why I think Robert is a great character, there are a lot of Roberts out there, he is very believable. And those Roberts always have a Ned. Feel free to substitute whatever name or sex you want for Robert and Ned.

Ned as Roberts friend makes perfect sense, the rigid Ned drawn to the free spirited Robert. People like Robert often are drawn to the Neds of the world because they need someone to help bring them down to reality. One craves the spotlight, the other prefers solitude. Both want something the other has to an extent. It's a great relationship in terms of being realistic in it's own context. That pair is a very common theme in the real world. Those two were two steps away from singing opposites attract.

[Ser Creighton]

Which is why I wondered how long the raven had been so talkative. If the animal has only started saying such pointed things since Jon arrived, then that just suggests that the raven (Bloodraven) is interested in keeping tabs on Jon specifically, and not just interested in the Watch.

As for him not visiting Jon in his dreams, two things.

1. He came to Bran because Bran's a greenseer. Jon is not a greenseer. It's implied that he has something in mind for Bran, but again, that does not mean that he can't also be interested in Jon. I don't see what is so hard to comprehend about that.

2. Most of what Bran saw began when he was in his coma. Hmm, if only Jon were to undergo some sort of trauma that might put him in a similar situation ... oh wait.

In any case, saying that he definitely has no interest in Jon just because he doesn't visit him in his dreams (never mind that Jon does have prophetic dreams involving the Winterfell crypts and holding a flaming sword) just seems ridiculous to me.

If I may I think your on the right track but I am not so sure where the track is headed with Martin. I agree he is very interested in Jon and that kind of goes back to ghost who has done some very interesting things to keep Jon at the wall. The first is when Jon leaves and his friends come to find him. It's ghost who gives away Jon's position right before his friends are about to give up and leave. Another time Jon is looking for an answer of should he stay or should he go. Ghost suddenly appears and Jon suddenly has his answer.

Now getting back to Bloodraven I believe it's Jojen who first talks to Bran about the Raven coming to him in his dreams and why. It came to Jojen when he was deathly sick some years ago and woke Jojens latent ability. It does the same for Bran. And I suspect he had something to do with Dany waking the dragons, as Dany was near death after giving birth and had the dream that literally tells her to wake the Dragons. Dany also begins to have very prophetic dreams. Enter the masked woman who is not all that different from a masked Watchman we know who helped Bran and company. Now as you point out Jon is put to a near death experience. Will he be in a Coma? Chances are yes. Will he have a major increase in prophetic visions? Maybe.

With all that said I am not all that sure I trust Bloodraven. After 50-100 years of being in a cave and part of a tree I am not so sure how mentally healthy he is. Plus the amount of power he has. That's really not a good combination. Not so much that I think he is evil, but rather an ends justifies the means mentality may have taken root. Maybe he wants Bran to take his place but does not want to die, maybe he wants a new body, and Hodor and Jojen may make good targets for him. Maybe he want's that body to make sure his plan is followed through exactly the way he wants. Though it may not be the case at all. But I don't count out that Bloodraven can't control people, I think Coldhands is his puppet much like Hodor is used by Bran, but that is a dead body.

I wonder if that is why Jojen knows he will die and is willing, because he thinks it will help, he is just is not filling everyone in on the full story and maybe Bloodraven has manipulated that scenerio.

Just a theory though, I am not a huge fan of the cave Zombie tree god, that used to be Bloodraven. I don't believe Martin will play him as a totally healthy person after being in a cave that long, having lost a lot of his humanity and having that much power. The cave does not strike me as a safe place exactly. But again that is all speculation.

One other thing, bets to anyone on who Jon will have talk to him in his near death dream. The Raven, Ghost, Ned, should be interesting. Also I have wonder if Ghost is on Bloodravens side as well, he may get used by him but I am not so sure he likes him. That odd wolf dream Jon has in his first chapter of dance. Ghost is not to happy about what is waking Jon up and being chased by the moon calling down Snow and we know what was actually saying Snow. Again not an evil thing but perhaps, Ghost knows what is coming or knows Jon will be put in Danger by this person. If Bloodraven wanted to protect Jon, making Ghost angry is really the exact opposite of what he should do, wouldn't he ant him calm so Jon takes him with him? Instead Ghost gives Jon a reason to lock him up.

[Ser Creighton]

On the subject of whether Rhaegar dreamed of Lyanna before he met her, (and apologies to the poster who asked the question for I can't remember), I think it's entirely possible.

That may have been part of the prophesy he foresaw in which he had to become a warrior- to fight the greatest warrior for the woman he loved. In seeing her at Harrenhal, and knowing Robert, his cousin, was her betrothed, he recognized the reality of his visions.

In crowning Lyanna, he was acknowledging their fate, but perhaps also the very human part of him crowned her to spite his father, or to even manipulate Robert into breaking the betrothal given the ramifications and innuendo of this act.

Ask yourself one simple question about Rhaegar's vision, did he seem at all surprised? Or was he just like yeah ok? Well two questions really. But he seemed to take it in stride like it was nothing new at all. Well if he did see Dany that is, and it seems he did, or he is just odd and looks off into space and says odd things all of a sudden.

[Dead Wolf]

All greenseers are skinchangers but not all skinchangers are greenseers. Only one skinchanger in a thousand is a greenseer. The kids share the same "blood" that makes them skinchangers, but that doesn't mean that they're all greenseers. And obviously if Bran is the only greenseer and was in a goddamn coma, that could very easily explain why he was contacted first.

I don't give a shit what Dany dreams of.

Try harder, seriously.

Rickon has dreams like Bran's, he saw Ned's death. Rickon didn't need to go into a coma to be whatever he is(greendreamer or greenseer) and if Jon wargs into Ghost, he won't really be in a coma. It doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about Dany, she isn't any less important.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Rickon has dreams like Bran's, he saw Ned's death. Rickon didn't need to go into a coma to be whatever he is(greendreamer or greenseer) and if Jon wargs into Ghost, he won't really be in a coma. It doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about Dany, she isn't any less important.

Rickon's dreams don't make him a greenseer any more than Jon's dreams about the crypts or his flaming sword make him one. So far, the only one we know is a greenseer is Bran, which for the fifth friggin' time explains why Bloodraven aimed to contact him first even though he might also be interested in other people.

And Dany has nothing to do with Jon's parentage or with this thread. If you want to talk about her dreams, go do it in a thread that's actually about her.

[Dio Forel]

First, how would Bloodraven know about the will. There was no weirwood and no raven nearby when Robb signed the will.

And second, the first mention of king by a raven was long before Robb ever signed his will. It was in the beginning of clash of Kings as far as I know. and the signing of the will was in Storm of swords. So no, I'm fairly sure that the mention of Jon as king by the raven/Bloddraven is referring to Jon as king of Westeros. (Even though i would prefer that Jon stays North as king in the North).

:agree: Yeah gonna have to agree with this. King Jon Snow I expect was a much grander reference.. KitN isnt really an accepted title by just about everybody EXCEPT the northern bannermen. We see how respected that title was for Robb. Snow on the Iron Throne (even though it was a tv scene) and seeing King Jon Snow (in the books) matches up for me, personally. But, again, this is very like the Matrix. The Oracle... Bloodraven... the ability to see what is to be and what must come to pass for that to happen... regardless of the ramifications. Subtle and more blatant clues are being laid out to make everybody follow the path necessary to get each character where they NEED to be to face the final battle. Growing.. learning... realizing that the petty politics of Westeros and all are insignificant when facing the larger truths and enemies. There must be suffering and pain to learn what hope feels like. There is no doubt that BR is orchestrating a lot of what is happening, no doubt. Just like with Jojen... he knows what is to come including his own demise... but does what is necessary to make things progress to the necessary end for the ultimate survival.

[Dio Forel]

A greenseer as experienced as Bloodraven doesn't need a weirwood to see things, he explained this to Bran. The raven was repeating the words it heard when Mormont and Jon were talking about in that scene. A lot of ppl misread this scene and said in a previous R+L=J thread that the raven's eyes never left Jon. It was actually Mormont who was looking at Jon.

This is a raven though... not a parrot. Every time it repeats something it is specifically relevant. That implies intelligence and most likely manipulation for a message to be heard. More like whoever is controlling the bird (especially since BR has an affinity w/ ravens) agrees and is voicing that in a way that it is subtly heard. I would be a little more confused if the bird started saying "Yes, Jon you are going to be the King of Westeros and your real father was Rhaegar." It was meant to be cryptic and said in a way that would be expected of a bird lol, otherwise it wouldve been too obvious and would draw no speculation... defeating the purpose of an epic series of novels such as this.

[Dio Forel]

Ask yourself one simple question about Rhaegar's vision, did he seem at all surprised? Or was he just like yeah ok? Well two questions really. But he seemed to take it in stride like it was nothing new at all. Well if he did see Dany that is, and it seems he did, or he is just odd and looks off into space and says odd things all of a sudden.

Most dreams are taken in stride.... I am sure visions could be too. They're a collaboration of thoughts an images, many times nonsensical, using real people and feelings scattered throughout. When I have a dream and I can fly and do all these things completely impossible.. I do it pretty nonchalantly. In a dream, and probably a vision, that reality is just accepted and "taken in stride".

[Ser Creighton]

Most dreams are taken in stride.... I am sure visions could be too. They're a collaboration of thoughts an images, many times nonsensical, using real people and feelings scattered throughout. When I have a dream and I can fly and do all these things completely impossible.. I do it pretty nonchalantly. In a dream, and probably a vision, that reality is just accepted and "taken in stride".

Rhaegar wasn't sleeping at the time. He was talking with Elia.

[Ser Creighton]

:agree: Yeah gonna have to agree with this. King Jon Snow I expect was a much grander reference.. KitN isnt really an accepted title by just about everybody EXCEPT the northern bannermen. We see how respected that title was for Robb. Snow on the Iron Throne (even though it was a tv scene) and seeing King Jon Snow (in the books) matches up for me, personally. But, again, this is very like the Matrix. The Oracle... Bloodraven... the ability to see what is to be and what must come to pass for that to happen... regardless of the ramifications. Subtle and more blatant clues are being laid out to make everybody follow the path necessary to get each character where they NEED to be to face the final battle. Growing.. learning... realizing that the petty politics of Westeros and all are insignificant when facing the larger truths and enemies. There must be suffering and pain to learn what hope feels like. There is no doubt that BR is orchestrating a lot of what is happening, no doubt. Just like with Jojen... he knows what is to come including his own demise... but does what is necessary to make things progress to the necessary end for the ultimate survival.

Who ever said a Warg is limited to one type of animal?

[Yeade]

Regarding dream encounters between Bloodraven and Jon, my pick would actually be the Azor Ahai one in ADWD, specifically the end after Jon's vision turns into an ordinary nightmare.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall, he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell!" Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...

...and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

The adjective "gnarled" evokes a sense of great age and is often associated with wood. To further suggest that Bloodraven takes a hand in waking Jon, when Jon whirls to face his assailant, he finds Mormont's raven, generally assumed to be skinchanged by Bloodraven. The only remaining question of import if this is indeed Bloodraven is why he chooses to intervene, IMO. Just worried that Jon will oversleep and/or be cranky on the big day he lets the wildlings past the Wall? Most of the explanations I can come up with likewise seem oddly protective, almost parental. This is either an interesting insight into how Bloodraven views Jon, with whom he shares a number of striking similarities, or I'm delusional, lol.

In general, I feel it's a mistake to entirely disassociate the game of thrones from the war for the dawn. Just as the devastation wrought by the War of the Five Kings upon Westeros makes Bloodraven's presumed goal of defending the realm from the Others magnitudes more difficult, if he could crown a ruler who knows the threat beyond the Wall, the Iron Throne's power to unify the southron houses could potentially bring much needed reinforcements north.

And I do think Bloodraven's got his thousand and one eyes on a candidate: Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen. Besides the common speculation that Bloodraven's been skinchanging Mormont's raven given its habit of cawing "king!" in Jon's presence as well as how it all but gets him elected Lord Commander, Jon has the advantage of a claim that's virtually unknown to the other current players, with the usual exceptions of Howland Reed and maybe the Daynes, Hightowers, or other past confidants of Rhaegar. People like Varys and Littlefinger, never mind lesser lights, would be blindsided by R+L=J, and that's always a dangerous position to be in.

The difference between Bloodraven and the schemers in King's Landing, however, is that the Iron Throne is for him merely a means to the end of preparing Westeros for another Long Night, not the end in and of itself. In that sense, Bloodraven's game is at a higher level, the Iron Throne just another piece, and for higher stakes. You know, the apocalypse and all.

[Old-Growth]

Yeade:

Just a couple of disagreements from an otherwise good post, firstly absent explicit statements from GRRM to that effect (and I do mean an SSM or something much less contestable than what is in Melisandre's POV chapter), I will not believe that Jon is AAR. As Maester Aemon would ask you: where are Jon's dragons? Secondly, there is another ruler who will soon know, courtesy Archmaester Marwyn, about the threat of a new Long Night.

Whether she will believe him, what with Tyrion making assinine remarks about snarks and grumpkins is another matter, though I suspect he will shut up quickly enough once he realizes that Marwyn's information comes indirectly from Lord Commander Jon Snow.

[Greymoon]

Yeade:

Just a couple of disagreements from an otherwise good post, firstly absent explicit statements from GRRM to that effect (and I do mean an SSM or something much less contestable than what is in Melisandre's POV chapter), I will not believe that Jon is AAR. As Maester Aemon would ask you: where are Jon's dragons? Secondly, there is another ruler who will soon know, courtesy Archmaester Marwyn, about the threat of a new Long Night.

Whether she will believe him, what with Tyrion making assinine remarks about snarks and grumpkins is another matter, though I suspect he will shut up quickly enough once he realizes that Marwyn's information comes indirectly from Lord Commander Jon Snow.

I'm not going to claim that Jon is AAR, but the argument about dragons is not sound IMO, for the simple reason that it seems to me, that GRRM did not originally mean to have dragons in the story. He explicitly dedicates book number...? to...? because "she made him put the dragons in".

In effect, GRRM had the main plot and AAR pinned before he added the dragons to the story. For me, this means that though it appears that the dragons are important, and might be instrumental to the fight against the Others, they are not, or cannot be lightbringer...and they are not, or cannot be be, the mark of AAR, or his weapon.

Literaly, lightbringer is a sword. Literaly then, it might be represented by Longclaw (survived a fire) or by Ice (since it was reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail.).But lightbringer could also be the Night's Watch or a particular skill such as greensight. When reduced to its purpose, lightbringer is a "weapon", and a "weapon" can take different shapes.

There is an SSM quote where GRRM speaks about prophecies and how they are so very vague and different people may interpret them in different ways. Dany is the obvious choice for AAR, but that doesn't mean that someone else could not fit the bill.

It is my belief that AAR will only be obvious in retrospect, at the very end, and not while the story is being told, though there has been more or less obvious hints of course. And even at the end, there might not be a clear cut hero and consensus among readers. That is what makes GRRM's work so very brilliant IMO, because it has a life of its own, beyond the words that GRRM put on paper.

As has been argued by various posters, Nissa Nissa might be represented by the Night's Watch vows, or even the Night's Watch itself. For a more literal interpretation Nissa Nissa might be Ygritte. Or Nissa Nissa might be Drogo etc.

IMO, the idea of Nissa Nissa represents a great sacrifice. Not a "wife" or a "husband" as such, but generally speaking a sacrifice made by AAR. In that sense Nissa Nissa might be everything and nothing at once, it might be an obvious sacrifice or a subtle one, but whatever it is, the cost for AAR will be great.

And on that note, isn't Bran's sacrifice, if he stays in that cave, the greatest one of all? here again, I'm not arguying that Bran = AAR, my point is only that these prophecies may be interpreted in various ways, and that we don't even know for sure that AAR = PtwP. And while I don't have the books on hand, it seems relevant that before seeing Jon, Melissadre sees Bloodraven and Bran. There might be more behind that vision than Bran's knewly acquired knowledge.

The way the story is going, it seems obvious that there will not be "one single hero". There are a few swords to be wielded (Dawn, Widow's wail, Oathkeeper, Dark Sister etc.) Swords that have defined characters (Longclaw, Needle...), roles to fill (the three headed dragon, the PtwP, AAR, the wolves that will "rise again" etc.)

I don't see Jon being 1 a dragon, 2 a wolf, 3 AAR and/or the PtwP, all of these together.

I'm aware of the three headed dragon = one person and three roles theory. I don't necessarily agree, and if I was to argue in that direction I'd say that Dany fits the bill of the three headed dragon much better than Jon. Three, has been associated to Dany in the HotU: "child of three", "three mounts", "three fires" "three betrayals" and she does conveniently have three dragons. In many ways, Dany already embodies the three headed dragon, all by herself. That doesn't mean that she is also AAR and the PtwP.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't see Jon being 1 a dragon, 2 a wolf, 3 AAR and/or the PtwP, all of these together.

I'm aware of the three headed dragon = one person and three roles theory. I don't necessarily agree, and if I was to argue in that direction I'd say that Dany fits the bill of the three headed dragon much better than Jon. Three, has been associated to Dany in the HotU: "child of three", "three mounts", "three fires" "three betrayals" and she does conveniently have three dragons. In many ways, Dany already embodies the three headed dragon, all by herself. That doesn't mean that she is also AAR and the PtwP.

The problem I have with this theory, is that the origins of the term "three-headed dragon" was always talking about three specific ppl whenever the term was used. The term's origins directly correlates with the creation of the Targaryen house sigil. Aegon l and his two sisters at some point right before, during, or after the conquest of Westeros created a red dragon with three-heads as the Targaryen house sigil in honor of Aegon and his two sisters as the first ruiling Targaryen monarch in Westeros. The three-headed dragon was created to represent their union, each head of the dragon's three-heads represents one of the three members of their marriage, and therefore they would always be remembered as the founders of house Targayen's ruiling monarch in Westeros. So whenever someone would use the term, "three-headed dragon" during that time, they were always referring to three specific ppl, which were Aegon l and his two sisters. I really don't think Dany, "embodies the three-headed dragon all by herself" because the origins of the term three-headed dragon was used to describe three ppl, not one....

Now obviously I think it's possible that GRRM could change up the term a little by maybe having a non Targ as one of the heads of the dragon or by not having all three members be brother and sister, but I highly doubt he's going to completely reverse the meaning entirely and have it as one person instead of three. Again, the original three-headed dragon, had three members, not one....

[FrozenFire3]

That was me :-)

I've also been wondering whether we haven't been given the main clue to the kidnapping in the Dany-Daario parallel - abduction as means of preventing Lyanna's unwanted marriage to Robert. If she disappears and spends some time in Rhaegar's company (perhaps even gets pregnant), there is no way she might ever become the lady of Stormlands.

I agree. It fits GRRM's 'story within a story' pattern. As for Rhaegar having 'dragon dreams', some of which regarding Lyanna, I put forward the hypothesis a few threads back during an exchange with Alia. No real textual evidence to support it, but intriguing enough and consistent with Rhaegar 'erratic' behaviour. What would any of us do if suddenly confronted with the reality of an unreachable dream of happiness? What if that very same dream was inextricably interwoven with ancient salvific prophecies and/or present visions?

The problem I have with that statement, is that the origins of the term "three-headed dragon" was always talking about three specific ppl whenever the term was used. The term's origins directly correlates with the creation of the Targaryen house sigil. Aegon l and his two sisters at some point right before, during, or after the conquest of Westeros created a red dragon with three-heads as the Targaryen house sigil in honor of Aegon and his two sisters as the first ruiling Targaryen monarch in Westeros. The three-headed dragon was created to represent their union, each head of the dragon's three-heads represents one of the three members of their marriage, and therefore they would always be remembered as the founders of house Targayen's ruiling monarch in Westeros. So whenever someone would use the term, "three-headed dragon" during that time, they were always referring to three specific ppl, which were Aegon l and his two sisters. I really don't think Dany, "embodies the three-headed" because the origins of the term three-headed dragon was used to describe three ppl, not one....

Now obviously I think it's possible that GRRM could change up the term a little by maybe having a non Targ as one of the heads of the dragon's or by not having all three members be brother and sister, but I highly doubt he's going to completely reverse the meaning entirely and have it as one one person instead of three. Again the original three-headed dragon, had three members, not one....

I tend to agree. Three people, one purpose/fate: a three-headed dragon.

Regarding dream encounters between Bloodraven and Jon, my pick would actually be the Azor Ahai one in ADWD, specifically the end after Jon's vision turns into an ordinary nightmare.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall, he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell!" Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...

...and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

The adjective "gnarled" evokes a sense of great age and is often associated with wood. To further suggest that Bloodraven takes a hand in waking Jon, when Jon whirls to face his assailant, he finds Mormont's raven, generally assumed to be skinchanged by Bloodraven. The only remaining question of import if this is indeed Bloodraven is why he chooses to intervene, IMO. Just worried that Jon will oversleep and/or be cranky on the big day he lets the wildlings past the Wall? Most of the explanations I can come up with likewise seem oddly protective, almost parental. This is either an interesting insight into how Bloodraven views Jon, with whom he shares a number of striking similarities, or I'm delusional, lol.

In general, I feel it's a mistake to entirely disassociate the game of thrones from the war for the dawn. Just as the devastation wrought by the War of the Five Kings upon Westeros makes Bloodraven's presumed goal of defending the realm from the Others magnitudes more difficult, if he could crown a ruler who knows the threat beyond the Wall, the Iron Throne's power to unify the southron houses could potentially bring much needed reinforcements north.

And I do think Bloodraven's got his thousand and one eyes on a candidate: Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen. Besides the common speculation that Bloodraven's been skinchanging Mormont's raven given its habit of cawing "king!" in Jon's presence as well as how it all but gets him elected Lord Commander, Jon has the advantage of a claim that's virtually unknown to the other current players, with the usual exceptions of Howland Reed and maybe the Daynes, Hightowers, or other past confidants of Rhaegar. People like Varys and Littlefinger, never mind lesser lights, would be blindsided by R+L=J, and that's always a dangerous position to be in.

The difference between Bloodraven and the schemers in King's Landing, however, is that the Iron Throne is for him merely a means to the end of preparing Westeros for another Long Night, not the end in and of itself. In that sense, Bloodraven's game is at a higher level, the Iron Throne just another piece, and for higher stakes. You know, the apocalypse and all.

Your posts are always things of beauty :bowdown:

And a relief amidst so many others that often confuse literature with a... stadium ;)