Le Cygne Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Even Sansa herself thinks that Tyrion, all in all, in hindsight, were a kind husband. All in all? A kind husband? So one time this very courteous young lady was looking for a word to explain why Tyrion didn't rape her after forcibly marrying her, and she thought "Kind?" and that means "all in all" he was a "kind husband"? That last quote is interesting, she thinks he's dead, and isn't even sad. At all. I don't want any Lannister... Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, at all of him, Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try. She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how? They have made me a Lannister, Sansa thought bitterly. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be? The long nightmare of Kings Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well. The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane... Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to Kings Landing the queen would have her head as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 And Hear me Roar was right though you seem to be proving the point about some people not wanting to believe there is anything good to be said of Tyrion. I didn't dispute what was said, but asked why bring up Jon Snow in his defense? He liked him before he did horrible things. So did I. So... isn't the topic how things are now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Legally, nothing would have happened. Nor would have people thought less than him though that is largely because people generally hate him in Westeros. But yeah, as a man, I take issue that "not raping" makes him superior to other men. Even when it is narrowed down to his society, most men are not rapists. The rapists may be allowed to get away with it more, but it is hardly something "most men" would do. 1. Ah. OK. I had to go back to your original post. I see what you're saying now. 2. It was more like this.... Shae: Can I get my stuff? Tyrion: No, but you can leave if you want. He never said he would give her her stuff if she left either. He may have done so, but without her payment, Shae was dependent on Tyrion. Until she her payment, she had no guarantee that she would get it if she left. 3. See. Fighting/leading a battle where winning means your family gets the throne and losing means you get to rely on the mercy of a man described by everyone as a man of justice and mercilessness is not altruistic. It's saving your own ass while trying to secure power for your family. Because rape is a very serious issue. When talking about the morality of a character, rape is going to come up when the character is a rapist. The PTSD excuse is bullshit. Many people have PTSD. They don't go out there raping people. I'm not making excuses for him I've made it a direct point NOT to make excuses for him, but you're missing very important points while wallowing in your PC world and focusing on this one thing. You're right that many PTSD sufferers don't go raping people, many people don't get blamed for killing their mothers, never learn from anyone how to treat a woman, grow up in a world where women are automatically lower than you, get raised by a sociopath, have two crazy twin siblings who fuck each other, be forced to watch your household guard rape your wife at the ripe old age of 13, have their father try to kill them multiple times, and then kill their father and lover. Yes, what he did was awful, but there was a reason it was put there and it wasn't so people like you could get upset about PC bullshit. It's a point of character development for a complex character. You're using it as an excuse to paint him with a broad brush and ignore the intricacies of the character. And let's remember something here... TYRION ISN'T REAL. GRRM wrote him that way and if you're on here you have to think he wrote it for a reason... my guess isn't so people would ignore books of character development because of a single act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisBamfatheon Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Then is Stannis also immoral for killing Renly? Tyrion's sister, two nephews, niece, and several other family members were in danger. I'd find Tyrion more despicable if he did join Stannis, bullshit 'rightful' king status or not. Stannis fought against one brother and I know his fans will brush it off, but in no way do I find this criticism of Tyrion valid. He would've been fighting his entire family had he joined Stannis. Renly was his enemy. in a war. I swear every time you post you bring this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I didn't dispute what was said, but asked why bring up Jon Snow in his defense? He liked him before he did horrible things. So did I. So... isn't the topic how things are now? Well, no, unless you think the sum total of what a person is or can be is defined in a particular moment. Not if you think a character's arc has been written deliberately and skilfully to show a disintegration until they hit rock bottom which leaves them only one direction to move in and that that movement is already beginning. I doubt Jon Snow would ever had called Jofrrey or Alliser Thorne or even Theon Greyjoy friend. Tyrion is painted so black and evil that it's worth remembering that there was something in his character that made him likeable, trustworthy, even honourable. And its still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Regarding this whole tyrion and stannis both chose family thing, I think the situations were pretty different. Stannis' family did not start the war they defended themselves from the mad king. Tyrions family DID start the war, Jaime and cersei by sleeping with each other and having bastards, and jof executing Ned. Another thing, stannis fought against an insane tyrant king, not for him as tyrion did. Stannis faced a hard choice in all of this wether to side with Aerys. tyrion doesn't even think about it, he just fights for a wrong cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Well, no, unless you think the sum total of what a person is or can be is defined in a particular moment. Not if you think a character's arc has been written deliberately and skilfully to show a disintegration until they hit rock bottom which leaves them only one direction to move in and that that movement is already beginning. I doubt Jon Snow would ever had called Jofrrey or Alliser Thorne or even Theon Greyjoy friend. Tyrion is painted so black and evil that it's worth remembering that there was something in his character that made him likeable, trustworthy, even honourable. And its still there. Fair point, thanks for the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 All in all? A kind husband?So one time this very courteous young lady was looking for a word to explain why Tyrion didn't rape her after forcibly marrying her, and she thought "Kind?" and that means "all in all" he was a "kind husband"?I think that the notion of Tyrion's "kindness" wrt the marriage might come from how Tyrion's behavior is considerably better than nearly everyone's else's behavior toward her. Particularly, Tyrion and Joffrey are purposely foiled in this respect-- Joffrey has her publicly beaten, Tyrion is the one who stops it; Joffrey threatens to rape her, Tyrion chooses to resist the bedding; Joffrey actively torments her, Tyrion isn't similarly cruel. I think it skews the rubric of what constitutes "kind," in that, the absence of torment seems like more than simple decency by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Regarding this whole tyrion and stannis both chose family thing, I think the situations were pretty different. Stannis' family did not start the war they defended themselves from the mad king. Tyrions family DID start the war, Jaime and cersei by sleeping with each other and having bastards, and jof executing Ned.Another thing, stannis fought against an insane tyrant king, not for him as tyrion did.Stannis faced a hard choice in all of this wether to side with Aerys. tyrion doesn't even think about it, he just fights for a wrong cause. So Tyrion was supposed to go over to Stannis where he would be met with a chopping block or pyre? Stannis has only his brother, Tyrion has his sister, two nephews, a neice, uncles, and cousins to think about. Let's see, go to someone who you don't like, doesn't like you, and very well may kill you as soon as you see him so you can possibly fight and kill your entire family, or stay and defend said family. Why is it that Stannis nearly supporting the Mad King over his brother is some kind of virtue, but Tyrion putting his family first w/out question a downfall? That's messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 ^ Because Tyrion murdered thousands to defend his family, which mostly consists of psychopaths well deserving of death and he knew it very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 How did he 'murder' thousands? Killing soldiers in battle in order to defend a city is not murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Flashheart Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 ^ Because Tyrion murdered thousands to defend his family, which mostly consists of psychopaths well deserving of death and he knew it very well. How did he 'murder' thousands? Killing soldiers in battle in order to defend a city is not murder. There are many valid criticisms one can make of Tyrion without having to make this stretch. Oh, and I personally love Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I think it skews the rubric of what constitutes "kind," in that, the absence of torment seems like more than simple decency by comparison. So kind = the least he could possibly do (apart from all the times he didn't do the least he could possibly do, but considerably less). And "kind husband" is a different ballgame, too. Calls to mind all sorts of lovely things that didn't take place here by about a million miles or so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So Tyrion was supposed to go over to Stannis where he would be met with a chopping block or pyre? Not saying Tyrion should have joined with Stannis (through it doesn't make his outrage about being denied his birthright kind of hypocritical), but why would Stannis execute Tyrion for being loyal to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Oh, the lemoncake just ordered me to cease and desist with this whole "tyrion sucks for not going over to stannis" argument. Well, it was fun while it lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 How did he 'murder' thousands? Killing soldiers in battle in order to defend a city is not murder. It definitely is in this case. Unlawful - check. Killing - check. With malice aforethought - you bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Flashheart Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It definitely is in this case. Unlawful - check. Killing - check. With malice aforethought - you bet. How is killing your enemies in battle unlawful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It definitely is in this case. Unlawful - check. Killing - check. With malice aforethought - you bet.This is a war situation. You are using this terminology in a very peculiar way. To illustrate; most people agree the Nazis were evil but I've never heard one of their generals called a 'murderer' for killing Russians attacking one of their cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 It's a civil war. Tyrion knows Joff is illegitimate and his claim is a fraud and Stannis is the rightful heir. That's what makes it illegal. Much more importantly, he killed thousands to keep a sadistic monster on the throne. Which is very, very wrong in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So kind = the least he could possibly do (apart from all the times he didn't do the least he could possibly do, but considerably less).And "kind husband" is a different ballgame, too. Calls to mind all sorts of lovely things that didn't take place here by about a million miles or so...Oh, I completely agree with you. It's just an interesting dynamic (Joff-Sansa-Tyrion) where reading through, it seems like Joff is the bad guy and Tyrion the "good guy" because he isn't cruel or abusive in the same way, and I think the contrast somewhat inflates reader perception of Tyrion's behavior here. Oh, the lemoncake just ordered me to cease and desist with this whole "tyrion sucks for not going over to stannis" argument. Well, it was fun while it lasted. jesus, E ro. Had I known you'd announce this, I'd have dispensed with the courtesy of privately addressing concern for your sanity with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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