Scott Lynch’s The Republic of Thieves.. SPOILERS

[TeaSpoon]

I'm with the majority in that while I thought it was a very solid and enjoyable book, I wasn't fond of the new writing structure. The small complete short story interludes managed to flesh out the world and the characters much better than the two interlocking novels of RotT did. The other major problem was the lack of importance of the election, all the characters didn't really care about it and it failed to generate any drama.

By the way having read the whole thread now no-one seems to agree with my interpretation of why Sabetha left. I don't think it's because shes his reincarnated wife or daughter it's simply because she looks very similar to his ex-wife. Throughout the book Sabetha always had a problem with Locke loving her because it was expected (you only love me because I'm a redhead, you only love me because I'm living 10 feet from you, you only love me because I'm the only girl you can ever tel all your secrets to etc.), now she finds out the reason Locke has been obsessed with her to such a degree is because she looks like his dead wife from a previous life. You can see why she believes Patience's tale, Locke isn't a normal man in love, he's been utterly obsessed with her from the age of 6 to the point of having no romantic or sexual feelings about any other person for over 20 years.

I agree. Patience may have a complicated reason for keeping the two apart, but Sabetha left because she was insecure.

That's her thing. Despite her quick wit and brashness, Sebatha is incredibly insecure and a little self-loathing. She can't believe that anyone could love her the way Locke does. Something else must be going on, she thinks. It must be the red hair or the fact that she's the only girl in close proximity. Sebatha guards her heart jealously, hides it behind a tough facade. It's no wonder she took to thieving the way she did. As a child, she was taught that she could never trust anyone with her true appearance because people would sell her to slavers. The sight of her would turn men into monsters. Deception kept her safe, but it also made her develop trust issues.

Trusting Locke was a long and hard road for Sabetha, and when it finally seemed she was ready to take the last step, BOOM, she was blindsided by Patience.

[The Marquis de Leech]

RBPL,

I think this is a transition book. If there was a mistake I think it was waiting util this book to introduce us to Sabetha. That introduction was the real focus of RoT. If she's this important we should have met her earlier and seen her fully integrated into the GB's. It's too much to have her as a shadow in the other to books without really meeting her.

I think Lies works fine as is (indeed there's a case for suggesting that it should have been left as a stand-alone - we'll see how the rest of the series goes). Cutting the padding out of Red Seas and using the extra space to deal with Sabetha might have worked though. Alternatively, taking the Sabetha backstory and publishing it as a novella in its own right, rather than mixing it into the election story might have worked too. I just don't feel that the theatre backstory and the election story tied together well enough, especially with both alternating cliff-hangers.

But it is an odd experience for a reader to sit there and think "this guy's a criminal mastermind, hired to rig an election. I could make a better job at election rigging than this, and I'm not even a career criminal!"

[Adept Havelock]

If we're putting forward ideas to improve the trilogy I would have loved to have seen;

Lies of Locke Lamora - Told from Locke's perspective, essentially as written

Red Seas Under Red Skies - Told from Jeans perspective, he was the most important character anyway, it would have fleshed him out more and given the story much more emotional depth

Republic of Thieves - Shown from Sabbetha's perspective, would have made the character much more real rather than defined by Locke (love interest/rival). Change the structure to the main story with flashbacks to her place in the Bastards (how she joined, why she left, why she eventually fell for/left Locke etc.) with interludes to her time outside the gang.

This would make the story more about the Gentleman's Bastards rather than the Chronicles of Locke which it is at the minute.

[Juba]

Adept Havelock--Great analysis. I think the POV structure you suggest would have worked really well, and alleviated many of the problems I have with the series thus far.

For my own part, I really enjoyed TLoLL, and read it and RSuRS over the course of two days (I was lucky enough to discover Lynch during my wait for AFfC). And although I had problems with some of Lynch's ideas--the setting's anachronistic social equality of women never being fully explained, the obvious RPG inspired elements, and especially the Bondsmagi--I looked forward to the third installment.

Unfortunately, I was pretty underwhelmed. At this point, it's never in doubt that the GB's will always find a way to 'win,' and there just isn't any real plot tension. And while the characterization was compelling in the earlier books, the cast of the election plot was really thin and uninspired (as was Karthain as a setting). Though I did enjoy the Espara storyline a bit more.

Also, the whole Lock as a reborn Bondsmage idea falls flat as hell for me. That's probably because I have a natural aversion of the whole 'mysterious parentage' and the sci-fi/fantasy 'prophesy' meme... If I never encounter either again, I'll die a happy man.

[Madness]

Camorr rules - that is all. And TRoT lacks the classic Lynch creature cameo :(.

[Isis]

5. "Storeys" drove me nuts every time I found it.

Gods, what an awful idea that was. Was it there in the first two books? Anyone able to check on e copies?

[BLU-RAY]

I don't think that was an idea - if you look at Lynch's twitter feed, he said, "oh, that's a problem" and that he'd alert his publishers. Couple that with it not being a thing in the American version... seems pretty clear that someone did a late "replace-all" of 'storeys' for 'stories' in the versions for all non-American English-speaking countries. I'm sure it'll be fixed in the next edition.

[Underfoot]

Just finished it. Read it over the course of a couple of weeks, with long breaks due to midterms. I actually preferred the flashback stories. The ones in Camorr were fantastic and pulled at my heartstrings, but the Republic of Thieves/Espara plotline was fun too. It was great to see the Sanzas again, and I liked the introduction of Sabetha.

I think the fact that I liked the flashbacks better, however, reflects upon the strength of the contemporary plot. The Locke/Sabetha interactions really did seem like a rehash of what we saw in the interludes, and the election rigging was pretty weak. I missed having one grand scheme--the multiple little pranks were definitely less compelling.

Not a fan of the reveal about Locke's past. While I wish it weren't true, I have a strong feeling it actually is. I guess it does help explain Locke's fixation on Sabetha (which I agree is a little creepy). Not sure how I feel about Patience's explanation for why the Bondsmagi don't use magic as much as they could, and I'm reserving judgement on the return of the Falconer.

I hope that Sabetha is not Locke's child from his previous life, so I'm crossing my fingers that the painting at the end portrayed Sabetha's likeness, rather than Sabetha recognizing her parent(s). When I read that passage, the former was my immediate impression. Why else would Locke/Jean react to the painting if Locke's past self doesn't look at all like him? There had to be something about the woman in the painting more than just the fact that she has red hair.

Adept Havelock--I really like the idea of the alternating POVs for the first three books. I think it could have worked really well, though I would have missed being inside Locke's head for much of RSURS and RoT.

Overall, I very much enjoyed it. I definitely don't think there was a significant decline in quality from the first two, I just think RoT had a different emphasis than LoLL and RSURS, namely characterization vs. plot. Here's to hoping Thorn of Emberlain comes out within a year or two!

[Frank Fitzpatrick]

I really enjoyed it from start to finish.

It did kind of have the feeling of information overload at the end though, as if Lynch needed to wedge all kinds of stuff in to explain what was necessary to understand Locke's journey in the next one. Even still, it was funny, entertaining and extremely well written.

[Isis]

I don't think that was an idea - if you look at Lynch's twitter feed, he said, "oh, that's a problem" and that he'd alert his publishers. Couple that with it not being a thing in the American version... seems pretty clear that someone did a late "replace-all" of 'storeys' for 'stories' in the versions for all non-American English-speaking countries. I'm sure it'll be fixed in the next edition.

Ah, ok. Well, that's good. So long as it wasn't intentional. I was concerned that it was some sort of homage to nuncle. :)

[alguien]

150 pages in and enjoying the ride. Liking this one a lot more than Red Sea under Red Skies so far.

[Fredward]

Bleurgh. I really thought Sabetha was just seeing someone who looked a lot like her in that painting. I did not pick up on this incestuous subtext at all. I really hope it isn't the case. The book made it super clear that Sabetha has always had hang-ups about whether Locke's love for her was somehow "forced" instead of just... yah know, love. That painting would definitely have made her really uncomfortable. Locke is a bit (read: MASSIVE) push over in the relationship. I would be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for a bit more aggression? Tension? Competition? But hey I'm kinky like that.

Reading about Calo and Galdo made me miss them... a lot. A LOT. As for Locke's origin, I wasn't too chuffed with him being a magical special person. I was also kinda hoping he was just a plebeian. Alas. I think the reason for this magical origin is twofold though, layering the romance/tension with Sabetha a little but MORE importantly something to do with the other side. Or whatever they called it. That scene with Bug becomes waaaaay more interesting when you see Locke as some liminal being that somehow cheated death. And man that was a creepy scene. The idea of your sins being written on your eyes was really nice though. Dunno why I like the idea so much but I do.

Patience. Oh boy Patience. She was something. Definitely one of my favourite (meaning memorable) characters so far. Not just in the series but ever. I can't decide whether she deserved that death or death at all. She was a hard one. Cruel even. Driven. Brutally efficient. But working for the greater good, presumably. Really liked her. She was nuanced. Something her son is absolutely not. I see nothing even remotely redeemable about the guy. He's a thug with delusions of grandeur who unfortunately has just enough savvy to merit some of it. Anyone else think the silver rain Patience predicted would be present when Locke died is somehow connected to the Falconer's sudden savant-esque affinity for dreamsteel?

Also all this talk about "something stirring in the dark" reminds me of Cthlulhu for some reason.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I had fun reading the book. I thought the flashbacks were great. It was fun to be back in Camore with the whole gang. I think the "real time" story line was a bit week. Before the big reveal it was just a bunch of pranks and one liners.

I like Locke and Jean's team escapades of the last two books and wish there were a few more awkward situation they had to get out of. I liked the wagon heist and the courthouse scene with the "old lady" and could have done with a few more like them or the bungee jumping gone wrong scene in Red Seas.

The Sabetha wife/daughter thory's out there never occured to me. Daughter would be really wierd so I hope that one isn't true. I just assumed the resemblece freaked her out considering how obseceed Locke is with her.

Looking forward to another trip with the GBs.

[delete this account pls]

I just finished it tonight. i enjoyed it, it was nearly as fun as the others, but I was a little dissapointed. i don't think it was the long wait either. I think my biggest problem with it was simply that there are no real stakes in either the present day or the flashback storyline.

In the present day, after Locke is cured, we are explicitly told that as long as Locke and Jean try their best, there will be no punishment for failure. Similarly, in the flashback, we know the Gentlemen Bastards won't disappoint Chains and balls this caper up, at least not to any disastrous degree.

So, yeah. Where's the stakes? In Lies, the safety of Locke's gang is on the line, not to mention the safety of the entire nobility of Camorr. In Red Seas, Locke's very life is at stake, along with a plot that will impact the rulers of a powerful city state, and in the more personal sense, the fate of the crew of the Poison Orchid. In Republic, win lose or draw... it doesnt matter. And we know it doesnt matter right from the start. There's hints that there's something else going on, yes, but they're pretty vague, and some of the biggest revelations in the book come pretty late (Locke's possible true identity wasn't revealed until the 80% mark for example) Without that larger threat, the cons and capers Locke and Jean or Sabetha are pulling are still fun, but they lack a lot of the dramatic tension similar schemes from earlier books had.

I also agree that Sabetha should have been more of a POV character. I think the flashbacks would have been more interesting if they'd been told solely from her POV. It could have given us a completely different view of the Gentlemen Bastards. I think i get why Scott didnt use her like that, he seems to want to keep her past fairly mysterious still and maybe that will payoff big time down the line, but for now, I just feel like it was a missed opportunity with what should be the most prominent female character in the series so far.

All that being said... these books really are great fun. No complaints there. And I liked the expansion of the world a whole lot. I also thought the long promised explanation for why the Bondsmagi dont just rule the world outright was actually very convincing, moreso than I expected actually.

ETA; on the whole is Sabetha Locke's daughter thing - it's a plausible possibility for sure. But I definitely feel like, while there was a lot of truth and facts in Patience's story, she was either deliberately leaving parts out, or outright lying in others. I think there's a LOT more to the Lamor Acanthus story than weve been told so far.

[Howdyphillip]

I just finished it tonight. i enjoyed it, it was nearly as fun as the others, but I was a little dissapointed. i don't think it was the long wait either. I think my biggest problem with it was simply that there are no real stakes in either the present day or the flashback storyline.

In the present day, after Locke is cured, we are explicitly told that as long as Locke and Jean try their best, there will be no punishment for failure. Similarly, in the flashback, we know the Gentlemen Bastards won't disappoint Chains and balls this caper up, at least not to any disastrous degree.

So, yeah. Where's the stakes? In Lies, the safety of Locke's gang is on the line, not to mention the safety of the entire nobility of Camorr. In Red Seas, Locke's very life is at stake, along with a plot that will impact the rulers of a powerful city state, and in the more personal sense, the fate of the crew of the Poison Orchid. In Republic, win lose or draw... it doesnt matter. And we know it doesnt matter right from the start. There's hints that there's something else going on, yes, but they're pretty vague, and some of the biggest revelations in the book come pretty late (Locke's possible true identity wasn't revealed until the 80% mark for example) Without that larger threat, the cons and capers Locke and Jean or Sabetha are pulling are still fun, but they lack a lot of the dramatic tension similar schemes from earlier books had.

I also agree that Sabetha should have been more of a POV character. I think the flashbacks would have been more interesting if they'd been told solely from her POV. It could have given us a completely different view of the Gentlemen Bastards. I think i get why Scott didnt use her like that, he seems to want to keep her past fairly mysterious still and maybe that will payoff big time down the line, but for now, I just feel like it was a missed opportunity with what should be the most prominent female character in the series so far.

All that being said... these books really are great fun. No complaints there. And I liked the expansion of the world a whole lot. I also thought the long promised explanation for why the Bondsmagi dont just rule the world outright was actually very convincing, moreso than I expected actually.

ETA; on the whole is Sabetha Locke's daughter thing - it's a plausible possibility for sure. But I definitely feel like, while there was a lot of truth and facts in Patience's story, she was either deliberately leaving parts out, or outright lying in others. I think there's a LOT more to the Lamor Acanthus story than weve been told so far.

Really nice thoughts on the book, and I find myself agreeing with your points, yet disagreeing slightly with your conclusions. As I have already stated, this book is my favorite of the series as both the political angle in the current time frame and the theatre focus in the flashbacks were both subjects that I found myself the most easily immersed out of all of the series settings.

I also think that as a middle book, the lack of extreme high stake pressure allowed for better character exposition than what had previously been done. This was certainly not a stand alone book, but really the second wasn't either. I found this book was by far the most humorous of the series.

[alguien]

Just finished this morning. Like many here, I thought it better than RSORS but not as good as the original. I was expecting to be let down by Sabetha and found myself enjoying her. There were times when the interplay between her and Locke was a little to pat and self-aware, but overall her reason's for initially disliking Locke (him displacing her from as head of the gang and priest of the Crooked Warden) actually make a lot of sense to me.

I loved, loved, loved the insights into the magi of Karthain. Pure fun. Also, Patience's explanation, "Would you proclaim yourself king of the farm animals?" made a surprising amount of sense to me.

The central heist was a bit lacking in high stakes, but the book was still fun anyway. I kind of like Falcon Vader's Magneto like resurrection. Very much looking forward to the next book!

Also, I'm wondering if the Falconer is Lynch's twisted take on Lord Sparrowhawk, Ged? The whole flashback of him enjoying himself as a falcon reminded me of the Earthsea books a bit.

[Drowned Crow]

I'm surprised at just how mediocre this book was. I've read the first two books 2-3 times each, but I can't imagine ever wanting to read TROT again. Somehow the freshness and energy of the previous books completely evaporated, leaving behind something impressively bland. Two boring and essentially unrelated novels awkwardly interwoven and tied together with an irritating and ridiculous romance.

I'm not sure I can bring myself to suffer through another of Lynch's attempts at romance. Jean's romantic subplot in book two was bad, but Locke-Sabetha made that one seem genuine and heart-warming. I find it fascinating that in both the past and present, every single interaction Locke and Sabetha have is negative and yet in both they wind up overcome with passion. Apparently in Lynch's mind romance means finding a woman who despises you and then annoying the fuck out of her until something snaps in her brain and she falls madly in love with you. Oh, and the way to win an election is to play juvenile pranks on the other side

[Mad Queen]

I've just finished the book and thought it was better than RSURS, which is not saying a lot, because I really disliked that one.

I find it fascinating that in both the past and present, every single interaction Locke and Sabetha have is negative and yet in both they wind up overcome with passion.

Hehe, exactly. I kept wondering if Lynch forgot to tell about the times they had a good time together. Or indeed about the times Sabetha interacted positively with any of the other gentlemen bastards. Maybe if the book had been written from her point of view as suggested, it would have made more sense.

The interludes didn't bother me, because often I preferred them to the main story. The characters were more interesting, the plans and cons were more elaborate and the stakes were higher. I'm also not a fan of the great revelation about Locke's true nature. It's cliched and ultimately why is it important? Maybe it's the only thing that can explain his obsession for Sabetha though.

[Howdyphillip]

I'm surprised at just how mediocre this book was. I've read the first two books 2-3 times each, but I can't imagine ever wanting to read TROT again. Somehow the freshness and energy of the previous books completely evaporated, leaving behind something impressively bland. Two boring and essentially unrelated novels awkwardly interwoven and tied together with an irritating and ridiculous romance.

I'm not sure I can bring myself to suffer through another of Lynch's attempts at romance. Jean's romantic subplot in book two was bad, but Locke-Sabetha made that one seem genuine and heart-warming. I find it fascinating that in both the past and present, every single interaction Locke and Sabetha have is negative and yet in both they wind up overcome with passion. Apparently in Lynch's mind romance means finding a woman who despises you and then annoying the fuck out of her until something snaps in her brain and she falls madly in love with you. Oh, and the way to win an election is to play juvenile pranks on the other side

I have been in that relationship numerous times in my life...

[Captain Sheepf*cker]

I'm surprised at just how mediocre this book was. I've read the first two books 2-3 times each, but I can't imagine ever wanting to read TROT again. Somehow the freshness and energy of the previous books completely evaporated, leaving behind something impressively bland. Two boring and essentially unrelated novels awkwardly interwoven and tied together with an irritating and ridiculous romance.

I'm not sure I can bring myself to suffer through another of Lynch's attempts at romance. Jean's romantic subplot in book two was bad, but Locke-Sabetha made that one seem genuine and heart-warming. I find it fascinating that in both the past and present, every single interaction Locke and Sabetha have is negative and yet in both they wind up overcome with passion. Apparently in Lynch's mind romance means finding a woman who despises you and then annoying the fuck out of her until something snaps in her brain and she falls madly in love with you. Oh, and the way to win an election is to play juvenile pranks on the other side

My thoughts exactly. It was like a prequel and sequel squeezed together for page count and to introduce us to Sabetha more - that is the extent of the two stories' relationship - I kept expecting the past to have some important ramifications on the present elections but nothing happened. I got pissed at Pat for his review of this book but I just finished this morning and am completely underwhelmed and in agreement with his assessment. Fuck it, on to Blood Song..