Sex and Entitlement

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

But dude when ur ugly people usually look for qualities other than the superficial in you, which is a good thing. It urges you to develop more talents, better personality, better academics etc. Same if ur a regular guy nvm ugly.

[all swedes are racist]

We all want someone who loves us for who we are, but men have as difficult a struggle as women there. In the meantime, you get to walk around knowing you're attractive and being constantly complimented (even if it is by creepy old men half the time), since when did a guy ever get the same reassurance?

The point is, even though you may not like being seen as a sex symbol, you have to understand that for men it is something to strive for. It's not something that you just get from your looks. And there is a huge social, cultural and personal pressure to be sexually active.

Eehhhh... Ok to balance that out, how about the guys who says "These gold diggers only want me forth money" vs the woman who has to deal with "all these guys are intimidated of me because I'm an ambitious, successful woman"? There is enough bullshit double standards to go around, but I gotta think the ladies tend to get the short straw (almost said "shafted", but on second thought....)

[peterbound]

@Leap

No I actually agree with lady Asha. Being hot she probably also has to cope with its numerous negative clichés like being that Dumb blonde or stupid slut or snob or whatever. I mean my sis has one of the highest gpa's in her MBA college and the only thing people notice are the looks. Id prefer being invisible any day to that shit.

Whoa, easy. When did we jump to the conclusion she was hot? Pictures or it didn't happen.

Oh, wait.. was that harassment. I never know.

[Gneisenau]

A) Can women really get sex whenever they want?

No

B) Is it wrong to mock the "nice guys" because we, as women, enjoy the privilege of having unlimited access to sex and can't possibly understand what it's like to be totally un-doable?

There are women who get sexually rejected, so yeah go ahead and mock if you want.

C) When people say, women can get sex anytime are they only thinking of the women who they *themselves* would have sex with?

I don't we think we could really say either way.

D) Have you ever considered the considerable risk/reward gap between male and female casual sex?

That depends on your definition of safe sex. :cool4:

Discuss, people. I have a paper to write. :cool4:

[sperry]

A) I will say that I can't imagine a scenario where a woman at a bar approaches any amount statistically signifcant amount of men at a bar and can't find someone to go home with them, whereas it happens all the time that men approach a large number of women and can't find one that will go home with them. Who knows why this is the case. Differences in sexual appetites, differences in cultural norms of "appropriateness" and "modesty", maybe all the women lacking in self-confidence who would sleep with our desperate "nice guys" just don't go to the bars?

B) Don't mock them. If they're bieng horrible about it, tell them to fuck off. If they're someone who is a friend, or that you feel sorry for, maybe try to give them some pointers about how they might actually be able to attract a female partner.

C) I think the pool of women who couldn't find a partner for casual sex in a crowded bar is much smaller than the pool of men who couldn't. Again, don't know the reason for this, but I believe it to be true.

D) Yes.

[Lady Asha]

I didn't say she should be grateful for people commenting on her looks on the street, but I do think she should at least accept that it's preferable to being the person everyone ignores, and has no hope of finding a partner.

................

No.

Being constantly reminded that I am a sex object and that there are men who want to screw me so badly that my boundaries, thoughts and desires are irrelevant is not preferable to being ignored.

The constant threat of rape is not preferable to being ignored.

And this is not about me being pretty, it's about me having a vagina. A vagina that men want to stick things into. Of which I am forced to be reminded of EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE.

So just, no.

[karaddin]

I didn't say she should be grateful for people commenting on her looks on the street, but I do think she should at least accept that it's preferable to being the person everyone ignores, and has no hope of finding a partner.

As someone who has played both sides of this game, even occasional harassment or creepy fuckers staring at you (which doesn't even come close to what she's described, but it's what I've experienced) is worse than being the one everyone ignores and felt like I had no hope of finding a partner. Because that's just bullshit you are telling yourself and making come true anyway, if you sort out your personality flaws and stand on your own 2 feet as an adult there are plenty of potential partners out there, you aren't actually invisible.

Whoa, easy. When did we jump to the conclusion she was hot? Pictures or it didn't happen.

Oh, wait.. was that harassment. I never know.

Yes, yes it was!

[The Anti-Targ]

I'd really like some male opinions on this topic.

In my gender studies class, we were talking about sex and entitlement. How so called "nice guys" rage that the women they have sexual designs on are "shallow bitches" for not having sex with them even though the guys were, you know, nice.

A lot of the guys were all like, "Well, women shouldn't judge because they can have sex whenever they want. They don't understand what it's like to be totally sexually invisible."

And you're right. I've had to fear that somebody would rape me every day since 11 every time I'm alone or walking down a dark street. Isn't that great for me? 55 year old men in pick up trucks driving down the interstate would do me! I'm so proud. :stillsick:

This whole "women can get sex whenever they want, female sexual thirst cannot be compared to male sexual thirst" seems to be a common gender assumption.

So...myth or fact?

A) Can women really get sex whenever they want?

B) Is it wrong to mock the "nice guys" because we, as women, enjoy the privilege of having unlimited access to sex and can't possibly understand what it's like to be totally un-doable?

C) When people say, women can get sex anytime are they only thinking of the women who they *themselves* would have sex with?

D) Have you ever considered the considerable risk/reward gap between male and female casual sex?

Discuss, people. I have a paper to write. :cool4:

From my male perspective.

Firstly I've never heard any genuine nice guys "raging" at their lack of casual sex. The guys who self describe as "nice guys" who do rage at such things are actually arseholes who simply lack confidence with women. I lack confidence with women insofar as the sexual game is concerned, but I never raged about not gettin' any. I accepted relationships on the terms they were offered (i.e. platonically) and never even thought of trying to push things in a sexual direction. That's not to say I never had sexual desires for women I knew, I just never thought it was appropriate to push. In more than one case I found out later the woman was waiting for me to make some sort of move, but I was oblivious to whatever vibe was being put out. So if I am going to "rage" about anything it's that some women are not direct enough about their feelings or desires and I find expecting the man to make the first move to be terribly olde worlde. But I don't even think that's rage worthy, it's just more of a personal observation.

a) Yes, that is what many of us males perceive. But then again there is also the beer goggles thing, i.e. the odious idea that certain women are unsuifficiently attractive to get casual sex unless a man happens to be significantly impaired by alcohol. So I would qualify the "a woman can get laid any time she wants" by saying that it is only an almost universal truth when alcohol is part of the mix. However I would also say that men can almost be guaranteed consensual sex when there are sufficinet quanities of alcohol sloshing around. The only issue is that my preception is that women don't get beer goggles, so they are less likely to go with a guy who is perceived to be beneath them in sexual attractiveness. So what limits a guy's chance of success is if he's rather plain and he thinks booze will help him get with a woman who is out of his league in the sober world, and then he gets all trembly lipped when he strikes out.

I don't really understand b. I just think it's wrong to mock people in general, so any specific instance of mocking also gets the thumbs down from me. But if there are women who mock guys because they can get it any time they want whereas the male mockee never does that seems a particularly petty, mean spirited and immature form of mockery. Never come across it myself though, irl.

c) but the thing is many men will have sex with a wide range of women (on the attractiveness spectrum), so while such men might think a particular woman is fairly plain (and even less attractive than he is in his own not necessarily humble opinion), he'd still be willing to have sex with her. So there is a degree of confirmation bias there.

d) yes I have. Though I struggle to actually identify any sort of reward on either side for casual sex, so really it's only a risk gap as far as I'm concerned. Casual sex, IMO, has no meaningful upside, and has all sorts of downsides for both men and women, but more downsides for women.

[Lady Asha]

A) I will say that I can't imagine a scenario where a woman at a bar approaches any amount statistically signifcant amount of men at a bar and can't find someone to go home with them, whereas it happens all the time that men approach a large number of women and can't find one that will go home with them. Who knows why this is the case. Differences in sexual appetites, differences in cultural norms of "appropriateness" and "modesty", maybe all the women lacking in self-confidence who would sleep with our desperate "nice guys" just don't go to the bars?

B) Don't mock them. If they're bieng horrible about it, tell them to fuck off. If they're someone who is a friend, or that you feel sorry for, maybe try to give them some pointers about how they might actually be able to attract a female partner.

C) I think the pool of women who couldn't find a partner for casual sex in a crowded bar is much smaller than the pool of men who couldn't. Again, don't know the reason for this, but I believe it to be true.

D) Yes.

Let me clue you in on something.

All a man needs to have a good or at least decent sexual experience.

A woman (and this one is optional)

With a hole.

The end.

A woman's pleasure depends on the guy knowing what to do or even caring enough to take the time to please her instead of just drilling her like a living Fleshlight.

So, if I were to go home with a guy I am risking being

a) raped

b) murdered

c) knocked up

For what? Maybe a 20-30 percent chance that I orgasm?

If men had those odds, I think they'd change their tune right quick.

[Lily Valley]

Yes. I sure have- Human reproduction in 5 minutes vs. Human reproduction in 9 months. The risks and rewards are very different, from a sociobiological perspective men are hardwired to spread their genes through the population, women are hardwired to seek the most fit mate.

This is off topic, but what if children were an asset instead of a liability. Wouldn't the woman with the most potential fathers be the richest gal in the tribe?

straits - I've been subjected to the "but I'm a really nice guy, why are women so shallow" rant more than once in person. It's not just an internet thing although I wish it were.

Ditto here. I can't tell you how badly I need to use the loo when these conversations start. An honest assessment of why a fellow is not attractive to women would probably have turned most of the speakers into "openly abusive" men.

Waiting for Prince Alexander to show up.

Will warm up popcorn in the meantime.

I see your popcorn and raise you a box of peppermint patties.

But they don't want ME.

They want a warm orifice to hump for ten minutes until they're done.

Being objectified every day since puberty is not a privilege.

May I ask how old you are? I had a similar experience as a young woman. I used to carry garbage to throw at cars when I went to high school. I took the bus. It struck me as the worst injustice that working girls were being put in jail every night, while men who terrorized kids waiting for busses at 7am were never bothered by the police.

I only asked because I found that the the fly-by john traffic stopped once I turned 28. Young women are treated much differently than "older women". The public property leer pretty much stops by 24 or 25. I'm in the US and only relating my experience.

I've also been subjected to the douchebag attitude that since I'm out in public, young, not supervised, I owe someone a blowjob. More than once. This crap also stopped once I hit a certain age.

[sperry]

................

No.

Being constantly reminded that I am a sex object and that there are men who want to screw me so badly that my boundaries, thoughts and desires are irrelevant is not preferable to being ignored.

The constant threat of rape is not preferable to being ignored.

And this is not about me being pretty, it's about me having a vagina. A vagina that men want to stick things into. Of which I am forced to be reminded of EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE.

So just, no.

To me, this is analagous to a rich person explaining to a poor person that their situation is preferable, becuase the rich person "has family members constantly asking for money, and has to live their life in fear of being robbed because they have so much money."

Also, can anyone provide statistics that extremely attractive women are more likely to be raped than average looking? I would hypothesize that it's a weak correlation at best. Or are you arguing that every man has it better than every woman because the woman is more likely to be raped?

[Gneisenau]

To me, this is analagous to a rich person explaining to a poor person that their situation is preferable, becuase the rich person "has family members constantly asking for money, and has to live their life in fear of being robbed because they have so much money."

I think the point she is making is that she is getting objectified, of course the rich person is also getting objectified as an ATM machine.

[sperry]

Let me clue you in on something.

All a man needs to have a good or at least decent sexual experience.

A woman (and this one is optional)

With a hole.

The end.

A woman's pleasure depends on the guy knowing what to do or even caring enough to take the time to please her instead of just drilling her like a living Fleshlight.

So, if I were to go home with a guy I am risking being

a) raped

B) murdered

c) knocked up

For what? Maybe a 20-30 percent chance that I orgasm?

If men had those odds, I think they'd change their tune right quick.

You are getting awfully hostile here. I made no claims that the woman would get an enjoyable sexual experience, or a desirable partner, just that they could get one if they wanted. Which was the original question asked.

[Lady Asha]

This is off topic, but what if children were an asset instead of a liability. Wouldn't the woman with the most potential fathers be the richest gal in the tribe?

Ditto here. I can't tell you how badly I need to use the loo when these conversations start. An honest assessment of why a fellow is not attractive to women would probably have turned most of the speakers into "openly abusive" men.

I see your popcorn and raise you a box of peppermint patties.

May I ask how old you are? I had a similar experience as a young woman. I used to carry garbage to throw at cars when I went to high school. I took the bus. It struck me as the worst injustice that working girls were being put in jail every night, while men who terrorized kids waiting for busses at 7am were never bothered by the police.

I only asked because I found that the the fly-by john traffic stopped once I turned 28. Young women are treated much differently than "older women". The public property leer pretty much stops by 24 or 25. I'm in the US and only relating my experience.

I've also been subjected to the douchebag attitude that since I'm out in public, young, not supervised, I owe someone a blowjob. More than once. This crap also stopped once I hit a certain age.

I am twenty years of age. I also model swimsuits part time to pay my way through college but I don't dress like a hooker. Jeans and a normal long sleeved, loose fitting turtle neck. No make up. Usually a hoodie.

Besides, my not so attractive friends get the same crap. Attractiveness has nothing to do with it, all you need is a vagina, as I am sure you know.

[Lady Asha]

To me, this is analagous to a rich person explaining to a poor person that their situation is preferable, becuase the rich person "has family members constantly asking for money, and has to live their life in fear of being robbed because they have so much money."

Also, can anyone provide statistics that extremely attractive women are more likely to be raped than average looking? I would hypothesize that it's a weak correlation at best. Or are you arguing that every man has it better than every woman because the woman is more likely to be raped?

What...where did you get any of that?

The only sexual guarantee as a woman is that there will always be unwanted, unappreciated sexual advances that make you uncomfortable and also, that you have a large chance of being raped.

It has nothing to do with looks.

[Castel]

This is off topic, but what if children were an asset instead of a liability. Wouldn't the woman with the most potential fathers be the richest gal in the tribe?

Are you asking if we should consider children an asset or are you asking what an alternate reality where children were assets would look like?

The only sexual guarantee as a woman is that there will always be unwanted, unappreciated sexual advances that make you uncomfortable and also, that you have a large chance of being raped.

I don't disagree with what you're saying in general, but you do note here that the attention is there but is simply "unwanted" right? There are two separate things here: whether you get more sexual attention and whether it's a good thing. You asked about both.You seem to have answered the first for yourself. (Assuming here that the percentage of "acceptable" candidates is greater than the pool of acceptable candidates for the average man, putting aside the rapists that make up the rest of the group giving attention).

[sperry]

.

[Lady Asha]

ETA - quoted you twice by accident :s

Surely these men to whom your boundaries and desires are irrelevant would be the men who would rape you? These ''nice guys'' at least, are not rapists.

Oh, and actually it's not just about you being pretty. Having a nice face is certainly a factor, though. For the nice guys though, it's about having a penis. A penis that no-one ever wants to touch or go near. Of which they are reminded of EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIFE.

Um...have you listened to some of these guys talk? These are exactly the type of men that become rapists. I know a guy who ended up date raping three girls who sounded exactly like that. Nobody would have sex with him so instead of, you know, adjusting who he was as a person or going to a hooker, he just started taking what he wanted from girls who would otherwise deny him.

The rage and powerlessness, combined with the entitlement is a recipe for rape.

Seriously? An unattractive man is reminded every day that nobody wants to touch his penis?

Unless he goes out of his way to achieve validation for his penis and is shot down, this is not true.

As a woman, I will be reminded every day, whether I want to or not, that somebody wants to use my holes. Usually in a vile, tasteless way.

[The Anti-Targ]

Let me clue you in on something.

All a man needs to have a good or at least decent sexual experience.

A woman (and this one is optional)

With a hole.

The end.

I am not at all insulted by that statement

/sarcasm

[peterbound]

Um...have you listened to some of these guys talk? These are exactly the type of men that become rapists. I know a guy who ended up date raping three girls who sounded exactly like that. Nobody would have sex with him so instead of, you know, adjusting who he was as a person or going to a hooker, he just started taking what he wanted from girls who would otherwise deny him.

The rage and powerlessness, combined with the entitlement is a recipe for rape.

Seriously? An unattractive man is reminded every day that nobody wants to touch his penis?

Unless he goes out of his way to achieve validation for his penis and is shot down, this is not true.

As a woman, I will be reminded every day, whether I want to or not, that somebody wants to use my holes. Usually in a vile, tasteless way.

We are being trolled

I'm to believe that it's alright when men are treated this way. That's what I'm getting from this.

For the record, there's not a day, not a fucking day, that I work and don't get harassed by drunk ,or fuck, even sober middle aged women. Not a fucking day. I smile and tell them it's flattering, and thanks. I then usually proceed to penetrate them with a sharp object, and they still hit on me.

I have woman tell me they are going to kidnap me, and do terrible things to me. We've got a guy on the job that is an A&F model in his down time. You should hear the shit that gets thrown his way. Horrible things. Especially on the weekends at the bars. You know how we deal with it. We laugh. We shake our heads, and we laugh.

Also, i'm not sure what hyper alert/paranoid world you live in, but not all men are rapists. I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with that, but every man that hits on you, or tells you you are attractive, or asked you out is trying to violently enter you without your permission.