Jamie vs Dany: Is it too obvious?

[Arya kiddin']

There is nothing "obvious" concerning "Jaime vs Dany". And I lost it anyway, when you portrayed Jaime as a hero, who is on his redemption arc and blaah.

[Tyrion1991]

There is nothing "obvious" concerning "Jaime vs Dany". And I lost it anyway, when you portrayed Jaime as a hero, who is on his redemption arc and blaah.

Of course hes on a redemption arc. The character is constantly wracked by guilt with visions and chooses to make several courageous decisions to fulfil his obligations as a KIngsguard; especially after he loses his hand. He decides to save Brienne, he stands up to Tywin about upholding his oath, he sends Brienne to find Sansa, he rescues Tyrion and he realizes Cersei is coo coo. Compared to him being initially portrayed from the Stark POV as an evil treacherous child murdering guy thats a huge shift in tone. I don't see what else you call it if not a redemption arc.

[Minsc]

Dany is much more hated than Jamie. You see a handful of things against Jamie because he is on a redemptive arc and he is a likable character. Whilst Danys character seems increasingly meant to rub readers the wrong way; especially in ADWD.

Yeah, I don't particularly like Dany's chapters while generally enjoying Jaime's. However, of the two currently Dany is much more the heroic person compared to Jaime.

Not that I really think they will ever come into contact, nor if they do meet up I hope Tyrion and Jaime don't get to reconcile just like how Arya never got to see her mother and vise versa.

[Tyrion1991]

1.Sorry but this is a ridiculous statement.

2.Jaime didn't kill the bear, the northmen did.

Not really, Danys exile is only really used to garner sympathy in her first chapters. From that point on, for three or so books, its not really mentioned about and its never embellished. Certainly not to the extent that Jamies redemption arc is. Pretty much all of his chapters consciously build sympathy for the character in one way or another. Thats the text as its written and if you watch the TV show this is even more explicit. We are meant to sympathize with Jamie. Dany on the other hand, she repeatedly emphasizes that she wants revenge on her fathers killers, to the horror of Barristan. Now, you could say that the point about Danys motivations for being bitter are well established from AGOT or GRRM simply assumes the reader will go "aww poor orphan Dany"; so that it doesn't need to be restated. However the problem I have with that is that with Jamie he doesn't rest on assumption and the point is emphasized. Whereas with Dany, even in her own POV it is unambiguously shown as a character fault. Sympathetic character, bigoted character. That just seems like what the text is going for.

[Minsc]

Of course hes on a redemption arc. The character is constantly wracked by guilt with visions and chooses to make several courageous decisions to fulfil his obligations as a KIngsguard;

When?

He only once mentions his regret for pushing Bran, and has yet shown any remorse for how his inability to keep it in his pants helped bring about unending and bloody war.

Furthermore, he still isn't really following his Kingsguard oaths as he knowingly serving a false king.

[Lady Valicious]

I think the scene Dany saw in the house of the undying of Aerys telling 'another man' 'let him be king over cooked meat...' Could be a inserted so that she believes Jaime re killing Aerys if she meets him.

:agree: Her vision matched what Jaime told Brienne about those events.

[Arya kiddin']

Of course hes on a redemption arc. The character is constantly wracked by guilt with visions and chooses to make several courageous decisions to fulfil his obligations as a KIngsguard; especially after he loses his hand. He decides to save Brienne, he stands up to Tywin about upholding his oath, he sends Brienne to find Sansa, he rescues Tyrion and he realizes Cersei is coo coo. Compared to him being initially portrayed from the Stark POV as an evil treacherous child murdering guy thats a huge shift in tone. I don't see what else you call it if not a redemption arc.

He continues having sex with Cersei, in the sept, in front of his son's dead body. He does nothing to stop Bolton's farce of installing a fake Arya in the North. Where has he shown any remorse towards throwing Bran out of the window, or for cuckolding Robert?

And the actions of "redemption" you so pint out are really feeble. He sends Brienne to find Sansa, at the same time implanting a fake Arya in the North, that is just hypocrisy. Rescuing Tyrion? They're brothers, it was not something heroic that he did there. I still have to see something good coming from him to really use the oft abused word "redemption arc" in his case.

[Nictarion]

He continues having sex with Cersei, in the sept, in front of his father's body.

It was actually his own sons dead body. I love Jaime as a character, his chapters are always good, but the guy isn't anything close to what the OP is implying. Maybe they missed the part where he threatened to fling Edmure's baby over the walls of Riverrun with a catapult.

[Arya kiddin']

It was actually his own sons dead body. I love Jaime as a character, his chapters are always good, but the guy isn't anything close to what the OP is implying. Maybe they missed the part where he threatened to fling Edmure's baby over the walls og Riverrun with a catapult.

I agree. And btw, yes it was Joffrey's body, my mistake, not that it makes the act any redeeming. I'll edit that post.

[Nictarion]

I agree. And btw, yes it was Joffrey's body, my mistake, not that it makes the act any redeeming. I'll edit that post.

I actually think it makes it worse, sure Joff was dick, but Jaime only views him as "a squirt in Cersei's cunt".

[Arya kiddin']

I actually think it makes it worse, sure Joff was dick, but Jaime only views him as "a squirt in Cersei's cunt".

What, really? The fans didn't go crazy with that?

That dialogue if I recall correctly was in the middle of that "Redemption Arc" wasn't it? Jaime's only redeeming quality in my opinion is that his POV's tend to be a little humorous. That alone doesn't excuse any of his character flaws for me, as it does for many readers.

[Danelle]

I think a Dany vs. Jaime confrontation could be very compelling. He could tell her a lot of things she does not want to hear. He could tell her about the night she was conceived. In any case, if she came after him, I think Tyrion and Brienne would come to his defense. I always thought that the betrayal for love that Dany would suffer would be Tyrion betraying her for Jaime.

Tyrion had a dream where he killed Jaime, but in the dream he (Tyrion) had two heads and one of them was crying. I interpreted that to mean that part of him would always love Jaime. I’m not so sure he could go through with killing his big brother in real life.

I too believe that Dany's betrayal for love it will be Tyrion saving Jaime from her.

I am not certain if Brienne would come to his defence in the event of Dany capturing Jaime.

The relationship between Dany and Jaime is complicated. While Dany is the only one to refer to Robert as the Usurper and to Ned as Usurper's dogs, she refers to Jaime as the Kingslayer.

“Guards!” he heard the wench shout. “The Kingslayer!”

“Kingthlayer,” he slobbered. “You are my captifth.”

While people in Westeros might object to Dany's feelings towards King Robert and Lord Eddard, they all refer to Jaime as the Kingslayer.

The difference is that while most people are abhorred by the fact that Jaime killed the King he had sworn to protect, Dany has one more reason to detest Jaime: he killed her father.

Besides Dany was raised by Viserys, whose protection was Jaime's duty when he joined the KG.

Jaime was commanded to return to King’s Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who’d remained behind.

"I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father.

King Robert is dead, Lord Eddard as well, Stannis Baratheon spent the biggest part of RR in Storm's End, Tyrion Lannister was too young to remember anything crucial about that period . The only two people who can provide Daenerys with significant information are Barristan and Jaime, the remaining knights of Aerys' seven.

From the moment that Dany meets Arstan, she wants to find out more about her family. Initially she is given harmless information, she is told that Rhaegar loved books and that although he was a gifted warrior, he didn't share Robert's or Jaime's bloodlust.

In DWD, Dany is confronted with the effects that her choice to rule in Meereen have brought to the people. She realises that she needs to marry, once more, a Ghiscari noble so as to ensure peace. Naturally she thinks of her family. Naturally Ser Barristan tells her about the relationships between the last Targaryens to rule Westeros.

This time though, Dany doesn't want to find out more about Rhaegar, who was simply fond of Princess Elia but she wants information about her parents.

Ser Barristan went on. "I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."

Later, on her wedding day, Daenerys thinks about her parents as well. By then, it is obvious that she is in love with Daario but nevertheless she feels that it her duty as a Queen to marry a Ghiscari noble, even though sha has no feelings for him whatsoever.

Still she can't help but to think of her parents. And what Barristan has to say about them?

"The queen your mother was always mindful of her duty." He was handsome in his gold-and-silver armor, his white cloak streaming from his shoulders, but he sounded like a man in pain, as if every word were a stone he had to pass. "As a girl, though …

she was once smitten with a young knight from the stormlands who wore her favor at a tourney and named her queen of love and beauty. A brief thing."

"What happened to this knight?"

"He put away his lance the day your lady mother wed your father. Afterward he became most pious, and was heard to say that only the Maiden could replace Queen Rhaella in his heart. His passion was impossible, of course. A landed knight is no fit consort for a princess of royal blood."

During the events of FFC, Jaime meets the aforementioned knight.

He was sober, just, and dutiful, and his Holy Eighty-Six were as well disciplined as any soldiers in the Seven Kingdoms, and made a lovely sight as they wheeled and pranced their tall grey geldings. Littlefinger had once quipped that Ser Bonifer must have gelded the riders too, so spotless was their repute. Al the same, Jaime wondered about any soldiers who were better known for their lovely horses than for the foes they’d slain. They pray well, I suppose, but can they fight? They had not disgraced themselves on the Blackwater, so far as he knew, but they had not distinguished themselves either. Ser Bonifer himself had been a promising knight in his youth, but something had happened to him, a defeat or a disgrace or a near brush with death, and afterward he had decided that jousting was an empty vanity and put away his lance for good and al .

(Ironically there seem to be interesting parallels between the Holy Eighty-Six and the Unsullied.)

Jaime, although he has spent half his life at the Red Keep, seems to be oblivious of the fact that the “near brush with death” was losing Rhaella to Aerys.

Then again, Jaime seems to be ignorant in regards to Aerys’ feeling towards his own mother. Once again, Barristan reveals to Dany that

"Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding." His face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I—"

One of the things that disgust Daenerys is rape.

Behind them, the girl being raped made a heartrending sound, a long sobbing wail that went on and on and on. Dany's hand clenched hard around the reins, and she turned the silver's head. "Make them stop," she commanded Ser Jorah.

Daenerys didn’t change her decision, to protect the girl, despite to what Quaro, Irri and Jorah told her.

One of the things that appaled Jaime in Aerys' behaviour was his attitude towards his sister/wife.

In FFC, Jaime recalls the last night that her mother spent with her father.

Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. “You’re hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. “You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well ,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

Jaime is aware of information, pertaining to the personal lives of her parents, that Barristan would never reveal. It should be noted, that with Robert and Ned dead, Dany can focus her revenge solely on Jaime and she isn’t the only one. Tyrion wants to avenge Tysha as well.

Killing Jaime could be a common cause for Dany and Tyrion. A potential meeting between Dany and Jaime is not unlikely to happen and it would be interesting to see how Dany will react once she discovers that her father was acting in a similar manner to the men she has punished.

[Alty732]

While I view Jaime as a hero, I think it is silly to say Jaime is the good guy in this fight. They both are heroic and are both flawed. While I do agree with jaime almost all the time, I can't say this is true for everybody... even George.

[sapphire_lion]

I am not certain if Brienne would come to his defence in the event of Dany capturing Jaime.

Sure she would. “She is loyal past the point of sense”, as Jaime said once. That is, if she hasn’t already gotten herself killed trying to protect him from Lady Stoneheart. She’d probably think she owed it to him for lying about Sansa and the Hound. And I know you could say she already betrayed him because of that, but really she did it to save the life of an innocent child. We all know Brienne would do almost anything to protect Jaime, including forsaking her own life (which she was ready to do in AFFC).

Maybe Dany would listen to Brienne’s testimony on Jaime’s behalf. While I don’t think that would actually stop Dany from burning Jaime to the ground, it might give her pause. That might allow time for Tyrion to intervene. Maybe Jaime could make his escape while Dany is thinking things over.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Tyrion had a dream cutting Jaime's head off or so

[Lord of 311]

It's late so I don't quite remember, but doesn't Dany have a dream about a white lion? I think that's evidence that they will at least meet up at some point in time.

[MasterJack]

It's late so I don't quite remember, but doesn't Dany have a dream about a white lion? I think that's evidence that they will at least meet up at some point in time.

Clash; Dany IV.

Fa ster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had

come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran

barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieke d in the flames, a dragon

bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and

dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a

line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads

bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like

the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her,

tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed

her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them...

I told you, she will Marry Jaime and go back to Vaes Dothrak and rule Essos with him.

[Makes No Sansa]

Jaime will probably get the payback from Dany and no one will know the real reason why he killed the Mad King. He'll be killed when he least deserves it. How he is regarded in the future depends on who takes the Throne in the end.

[Danelle]

Sure she would. “She is loyal past the point of sense”, as Jaime said once. That is, if she hasn’t already gotten herself killed trying to protect him from Lady Stoneheart. She’d probably think she owed it to him for lying about Sansa and the Hound. And I know you could say she already betrayed him because of that, but really she did it to save the life of an innocent child. We all know Brienne would do almost anything to protect Jaime, including forsaking her own life (which she was ready to do in AFFC).

Maybe Dany would listen to Brienne’s testimony on Jaime’s behalf. While I don’t think that would actually stop Dany from burning Jaime to the ground, it might give her pause. That might allow time for Tyrion to intervene. Maybe Jaime could make his escape while Dany is thinking things over.

I agree that Brienne would want to rescue Jaime or testify to protect him but I doubt that this will happen.

I am afraid that she won't be alive by the time Dany arrives in Westeros.

Even if she is alive though, why would Dany listen to her testimony? I doubt that Brienne's testimony would matter by that point.

I think that Dany would accuse Jaime for oathbreaking, kingslaying and betraying the royal House of Westeros and assisting Robert the Usurper in his rebellion.

I doubt that she would care if Brienne reveals that Jaime rescued her from Vargo and convinced the Bloody Mummers not to rape her. Besides Brienne is from the Stormlands, her family had served the Baratheons, Brienne herself was a member of Renly's Rainbow Guard and later she served Lady Stark.

In the event of both Jaime and Brienne surviving the encounter with Lady Stoneheart and Jaime becoming Dany's prisoner, Brienne could not be of actual help to Jaime.

Besides she already failed once to convince of Jaime's true motives.

Deny it all you want. That sword says you're a liar. Are we supposed to believe the Lannisters are handing out gold and ruby swords to foes? That the Kingslayer meant for you to hide the girl from his own twin? I suppose the paper with the boy king's seal was just in case you needed to wipe your arse?

Jaime. The name was a knife, twisting in her belly. "Lady Catelyn, I . . . you do not understand, Jaime . . . he saved me from being raped when the Bloody Mummers took us, and later he came back for me, he leapt into the bear pit empty-handed . . . I swear to you, he is not the man he was. He sent me after Sansa to keep her safe, he could not have had a part in the Red Wedding."

In any case, the potential trial of Jaime by Dany will likely use the same motives that were applied in Tyrion's trial.

Daenerys will replace Tywin as Judge, Barristan Selmy and Tyrion Lannister will likely sit in judgement with her.

Tyrion might replace Cersei as well,

A murmur went through the hall, and Tyrion wondered what mad game Cersei was playing. Why offer a witness that believes me innocent? He soon learned. Ser Balon spoke reluctantly of how he had pulled Tyrion away from Joffrey on the day of the riot. “He did strike His Grace, that’s so. It was a fit of wroth, no more. A summer storm. The mob near killed us all.”

In Tyrion's trial Ser Balon Swann, an honourable man testfied that he did not believe that Tyrion committed the heinous crime. But then he was asked to explain what happenned during the riot.

Even though Balon did not want to blame Tyrion and has an excellent reputation, his testimony was used as evidence against Tyrion.

She began with a man known to be honest, and milked him for all he would give. Every witness to follow will tell a worse tale, until I seem as bad as Maegor the Cruel and Aerys the Mad together, with a pinch of Aegon the Unworthy for spice.

Assuming that Brienne is alive when Dany arrives and she is allowed to testify in Jaime's defence, Tyrion would likely find a way to turn Brienne's testimony against Jaime.

Tyrion began to grasp his sister’s plan.She began with a man known to be honest, and milked him for all he would give. Every witness to follow will tell a worse tale, until I seem as bad as Maegor the Cruel and Aerys the Mad together, with a pinch of Aegon the Unworthy for spice.

The alternative is for Brienne to be Jaime's champion in a trial by combat. While Brienne is strong and has skill, Daenerys is followed by men who are older and more experienced than Brienne, such as Grey Worm, the Red Lamp, Tumco Lho, Aggo, even Ser Barristan himself.

Personally I believe that no matter what, Daenerys will order Jaime's execution, but Tyrion will prevent it, just like Jaime prevented his execution.

[LordStoneheart]

It's late so I don't quite remember, but doesn't Dany have a dream about a white lion? I think that's evidence that they will at least meet up at some point in time.

The white lion is Tyrion.