Cas Stark Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 D&D don't make changes because they think they can tell a better story than Martin, but because they think certain aspects of his story won't adapt very well to the visual medium of television. Many of the people in this thread have sworn up and down that they don't hate the idea of the changes mecessarily, but the execution. Yet when they get emotional they resort to the "D&D think they are better than Martin!" outrage. I'm pretty sure that zombies do well in the visual medium overall. So, I don't think that is a valid reason for no Stoneheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 D+D changing something due to thinking they're better than Martin is not a change I consider justified. Time, money and audience comprehension should be the only factors in making changes imo. And you really don't see the hypocrisy in D+D saying Uncat wouldn't work on screen, but then introducing us to Ungregor? Exactly, I mean how will he be important? Being the champion? They could just use anyone there, Cat has a connection to Brienne that is repeatedly mentioned on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Ungregor is part of the Lannister storyline, you know how D&D feel about them Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Keep in mind that D&D know where UnCat's storyline goes, and we don't. It seems like George himself didn't know what to do with the character after he wrote the twist in ASOS. Didn't George say if he could go back he would not do UnCat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Ungregor is part of the Lannister storyline, you know how D&D feel about them Lannisters. They messed this one too to be fair, with that table sex and no Tysha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Keep in mind that D&D know where UnCat's storyline goes, and we don't. It seems like George himself didn't know what to do with the character after he wrote the twist in ASOS. Didn't George say if he could go back he would not do UnCat?No he never said that. Stop making up stuff to defend the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Keep in mind that D&D know where UnCat's storyline goes, and we don't. It seems like George himself didn't know what to do with the character after he wrote the twist in ASOS. Didn't George say if he could go back he would not do UnCat? Never heard that one before. Going to need a source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Yeah I find it a bit hard to believe Martin would openly admit to messing up, essentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 And I don't think UnCat and UnGregor are really comparable. UnGregor was basically a mute brute before his zombification, no major change there, he's still just a tool for murder. With Catelyn you have one of the most compelling characters who has a wide spectrum of emotions, both strength and vulnerability, turned into a zombie, who is fueled by only one emotion: anger. She can't really talk, she just looks menacing and hangs people. Audiences would see her revival and fist pump, expecting her to kick Lannister/Frey ass and kill off all of the Stark enemies, but George barely does anything with her in the two books after her resurrection. It won't take long before viewers start to wonder what the point of this resurrection was in the first. It's a divisive storyline among the book readers, and then when you get to the Jon Snow cliffhanger, more people get frustrated with this plot device. I don't take SH being cut as an exmaple of the producers thinking the plot line sucked, but as for the show, why bring back an actor who isn't really given much to do? Especially with all of the new players being introduced next season. I feel like the Martells and Greyjoys will have a bigger role in the end game than SH. From a TV series perspective, Michelle's send off was unforgettable and very impactful, why risk undermining that with a twist that might not amount to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 And I don't think UnCat and UnGregor are really comparable. UnGregor was basically a mute brute before his zombification, no major change there, he's still just a tool for murder. With Catelyn you have one of the most compelling characters who has a wide spectrum of emotions, both strength and vulnerability, turned into a zombie, who is fueled by only one emotion: anger. She can't really talk, she just looks menacing and hangs people. Audiences would see her revival and fist pump, expecting her to kick Lannister/Frey ass and kill off all of the Stark enemies, but George barely does anything with her in the two books after her resurrection. It won't take long before viewers start to wonder what the point of this resurrection was in the first. It's a divisive storyline among the book readers, and then when you get to the Jon Snow cliffhanger, more people get frustrated with this plot device. I don't take SH being cut as an exmaple of the producers thinking the plot line sucked, but as for the show, why bring back an actor who isn't really given much to do? Especially with all of the new players being introduced next season. I feel like the Martells and Greyjoys will have a bigger role in the end game than SH. From a TV series perspective, Michelle's send off was unforgettable and very impactful, why risk undermining that with a twist that might not amount to much. You're failing to understand what Stoneheart is about. It's all about this compassionate women becoming a demon fuelled purely by hate. Hiring Michelle Fairley back for just a couple of episodes isn't a problem - shows have guest stars all the time. And if she was saved for S5, with some of Jaime's TWOW material bought forwards, then she'd be in at least a few episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Never heard that one before. Going to need a source. I've seen it posted around here a couple of times. I don't follow GRRM interviews as much as the people around here. GRRM has admitted to "regrets" before or if having another chance doing things differently, so it's impossible. A quick google shows a few different sites with posters saying "they read somewhere that GRRM...." but no actual source. So maybe it's an unfounded rumor that's been spread a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 And I don't think UnCat and UnGregor are really comparable. UnGregor was basically a mute brute before his zombification, no major change there, he's still just a tool for murder. With Catelyn you have one of the most compelling characters who has a wide spectrum of emotions, both strength and vulnerability, turned into a zombie, who is fueled by only one emotion: anger. She can't really talk, she just looks menacing and hangs people. Audiences would see her revival and fist pump, expecting her to kick Lannister/Frey ass and kill off all of the Stark enemies, but George barely does anything with her in the two books after her resurrection. It won't take long before viewers start to wonder what the point of this resurrection was in the first. It's a divisive storyline among the book readers, and then when you get to the Jon Snow cliffhanger, more people get frustrated with this plot device. I don't take SH being cut as an exmaple of the producers thinking the plot line sucked, but as for the show, why bring back an actor who isn't really given much to do? Especially with all of the new players being introduced next season. I feel like the Martells and Greyjoys will have a bigger role in the end game than SH. From a TV series perspective, Michelle's send off was unforgettable and very impactful, why risk undermining that with a twist that might not amount to much. To be fair - what exactly did George do with Dany in Meereen? He tends to procrastinate before things get going. And in Cat's case what was done adds to tragedy - this fine woman stripped off her good qualities and left with horrible awareness of what has happened and eternal anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 You're failing to understand what Stoneheart is about. It's all about this compassionate women becoming a demon fuelled purely by hate. Hiring Michelle Fairley back for just a couple of episodes isn't a problem - shows have guest stars all the time. And if she was saved for S5, with some of Jaime's TWOW material bought forwards, then she'd be in at least a few episodes. No, I get it. Catelyn is no longer Catelyn, just a husk of her former self, and that's tragic. But from a visual standpoint we don't really have time to reflect on how sad that is, we have three season left and hard decisions have to be made. They can only include things at this point that will have a major effect on the end game. Seeing ZombieCat hang nameless Freys may be exciting for a while, but if it doesn't go anywhere important for the endgame, it may be wise to cut, and leave Catelyn with her amazing sendoff in The Rains of Castamere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 No, I get it. Catelyn is no longer Catelyn, just a husk of her former self, and that's tragic. But from a visual standpoint we don't really have time to reflect on how sad that is, we have three season left and hard decisions have to be made. They can only include things at this point that will have a major effect on the end game. Seeing ZombieCat hang nameless Freys may be exciting for a while, but if it doesn't go anywhere important for the endgame, it may be wise to cut, and leave Catelyn with her amazing sendoff in The Rains of Castamere.I agree. It really depends on where that story is headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyJoe Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 To be fair - what exactly did George do with Dany in Meereen? He tends to procrastinate before things get going. And in Cat's case what was done adds to tragedy - this fine woman stripped off her good qualities and left with horrible awareness of what has happened and eternal anger. I love Dany's ADWD story, it's my favorite arc in that book, but I'm expecting it to be cut to the bone for the show. I don't think there's any way they'll do justice to it, things just need more momentum in a tv series, and I'm okay with it. The SH story in AFFC/ADWD may be the quiet before the storm, but D&D know more about that than we do, so I'm just going to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dorian Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I dunno if what's done with Gregor will even be portrayed as the same kind of resurrection/zombification. He could just be black-magically healed rather than dying and brought back, on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 No, I get it. Catelyn is no longer Catelyn, just a husk of her former self, and that's tragic. But from a visual standpoint we don't really have time to reflect on how sad that is, we have three season left and hard decisions have to be made. They can only include things at this point that will have a major effect on the end game. Seeing ZombieCat hang nameless Freys may be exciting for a while, but if it doesn't go anywhere important for the endgame, it may be wise to cut, and leave Catelyn with her amazing sendoff in The Rains of Castamere. Well firstly I disagree. I think with a different set of show runners we could have had season 1 levels of faithfulness all the way. But that aside, I just have a hard time seeing Uncat having so small a role that she can easily be cut. I don't think this is D+D cutting a shocking but ultimately minor subplot, I think it's a sign that from here on out we're not getting ASOIAF, just D+D's story vaguely inspired by it. Also why isn't there enough time for us to reflect on how sad Uncat is? Isn't three to four years enough? It could have been more if she'd been introduced in S3 or 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franko99 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 D+D changing something due to thinking they're better than Martin is not a change I consider justified. Time, money and audience comprehension should be the only factors in making changes imo. And you really don't see the hypocrisy in D+D saying Uncat wouldn't work on screen, but then introducing us to Ungregor? Except all we had so far are third-hand comments on the matter, we don't know if LS has been cut yet. And we don't know exactly how important neither LS or Robert Strong are going to be, but I won't take any part in this discussion until I see how it all plays out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I dunno if what's done with Gregor will even be portrayed as the same kind of resurrection/zombification. He could just be black-magically healed rather than dying and brought back, on the show. I don't think it will be magic, but it will be much less drastic than the headless reanimated corpse we got in the book. But, it's odd, I expected they would cut this element from the show because it was kind of over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Well firstly I disagree. I think with a different set of show runners we could have had season 1 levels of faithfulness all the way. But that aside, I just have a hard time seeing Uncat having so small a role that she can easily be cut. I don't think this is D+D cutting a shocking but ultimately minor subplot, I think it's a sign that from here on out we're not getting ASOIAF, just D+D's story vaguely inspired by it. Also why isn't there enough time for us to reflect on how sad Uncat is? Isn't three to four years enough? It could have been more if she'd been introduced in S3 or 4. Show her with that prayer wheel thing. That's at least something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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