The friendship of Jon & Tyrion

[iolahardy]

GRRM spent considerable amount of time & pages building the friendship between Tyrion Lannister & Jon Snow. However after Tyrion returned to the South, other than Jon thinking once or twice about him, there is no mention of this friendship anywhere in the books. All the things which were discussed by these two at the Wall could have easily been covered in a Jon POV chapter. Why do you think GRRM who had no dearth of things to write about for ASOIAF concentrated on these two? Will he ever revisit these two or are they best forgotten now?

And now something which I have been thinking about for some days now. Lord Commander Mormont asked Sam to bring Jorah back to the Wall & make him take the black. Is it possible that Jorah & Tyrion meet Sam somewhere, where he conveys the message to Jorah? And instead of Jorah taking Tyrion to Dany, they both end up going to the Wall? I seriously doubt Tyrion will do what Varys & Illyrio planned for him. When has he ever followed anyone just like that? He might end up doing the exact opposite. Cersei's power has declined, men at the Wall have mixed & confused loyalties now, there will be chaos with Jon's death. Does anyone think there is a possibility of Tyrion & Jon meeting again & fighting on the same side?

P.S.: I do not believe Jon is dead.

[Gneisenau]

Well since Jon is a Targ, I could easily Tyrion getting some position when Jon becomes King.

[Free Northman]

Martin had to lay the groundwork for Jon's future relationship with his uncle...

[Newstar]

Good post idea, OP!

Hmmm...I have noticed that GRRM likes to set up these warm friendships or relationships between two characters and then have them meet in circumstances where they turn on each other in the most brutal, heartwrenching fashion--Jaime/Cersei, Jaime/Tyrion, Jaime/Brienne, Catelyn/Brienne--or where they reunite and one is so changed that he/she is barely recognized by the other (Catelyn/Brienne, Asha/Theon, etc.).

So applying that to Jon/Tyrion, it could be that the next time Jon and Tyrion meet, it will be under circumstances where they are facing off against one another...which makes perfect sense if we are headed towards a Jon vs. Dany scenario, since Tyrion would likely be allied with Dany at that point. (Could also be Jon vs. Aegon to make it interesting, I suppose.)

Or it could be a "Good God(s), man, what happened?" scenario where Tyrion has gone full-out supervillain and Jon is horrified by what Tyrion has become and is wondering what happened to the person he befriended back in AGOT (a Catelyn/Brienne-type scenario, I guess). Depending on what Jon is like post-magical ice coma/resurrection/recovery from mutiny, maybe Tyrion is the one who's horrified by the hard, uncompromising, harsh man Jon has become. Who knows?

Tyrion and Jon's friendship in AGOT being nothing more than GRRM laying the groundwork for Tyrion to become Jon's trusted advisor as Jon becomes King in the North/King of Westeros or what have you seems a bit too easy and trite, but that is a possibility.

I do think that Tyrion will likely wind up back at the Wall, one way or another.

And instead of Jorah taking Tyrion to Dany, they both end up going to the Wall?

Could be. Jorah and Tyrion becoming...well, whatever they are (friends isn't exactly the right word) seems to create another link between Tyrion and the Wall, courtesy of Jeor's dying wish. In addition to Jon/Tyrion/AGOT/Wall, there's now Tyrion/Jorah/Jeor's wish/Wall.

Does anyone think there is a possibility of Tyrion & Jon meeting again & fighting on the same side?

I do think he'll end up at the Wall, although I admit I don't really see how he winds up there unless he's dragged up there by virtue of being Dany's advisor or winds up on an involuntary dragon ride or something. As for whether he winds up on Jon's side, that's anyone's guess. He could equally wind up fighting him, after all.

[Red Raven]

Tyrion befriends Jon, spends time with fAegon, and is trying to be on his way to meet Dany...it's interesting he's made/making contact with the three key Targs. Something about how the three of them connect will likely hinge on Tyrion.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Tyrion befriends Jon, spends time with fAegon, and is trying to be on his way to meet Dany...it's interesting he's made/making contact with the three key Targs. Something about how the three of them connect will likely hinge on Tyrion.

As much as i dislike the idea, i think you are right. I dont like the idea because it makes Tyrion a bit too important to Targ relations. Meh. Tyrion, if he stops being a gross little fucker, may wind up as an ambassador of sorts. I think it wont make much a difference with Dany/Aegon relations though. Those two will fight.

[Dany Girl]

Ya, honestly I don't think the friendship they had is going to mean diddly squat to Jon if he ever meets Tyrion again. Maybe if Jon becomes king he'll give Tyrion the option of taking the black or going into exile over just cutting off his head.

After everything Tyrion's family has done to Jon's, including Tyrion's own actions of marrying Sansa, that friendship is most certainly OVER.

[Jon of the Dead]

Tyrion befriends Jon, spends time with fAegon, and is trying to be on his way to meet Dany...it's interesting he's made/making contact with the three key Targs. Something about how the three of them connect will likely hinge on Tyrion.

And he also met Aemon:

Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.

Between that and the recurrent theories of him being Aerys' son, they should give him the title of honorary Targ already

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Newstar, on 10 Nov 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Good post idea, OP!

Hmmm...I have noticed that GRRM likes to set up these warm friendships or relationships between two characters and then have them meet in circumstances where they turn on each other in the most brutal, heartwrenching fashion--Jaime/Cersei, Jaime/Tyrion, Jaime/Brienne, Catelyn/Brienne--or where they reunite and one is so changed that he/she is barely recognized by the other (Catelyn/Brienne, Asha/Theon, etc.).

So applying that to Jon/Tyrion, it could be that the next time Jon and Tyrion meet, it will be under circumstances where they are facing off against one another...which makes perfect sense if we are headed towards a Jon vs. Dany scenario, since Tyrion would likely be allied with Dany at that point. (Could also be Jon vs. Aegon to make it interesting, I suppose.)

Or it could be a "Good God(s), man, what happened?" scenario where Tyrion has gone full-out supervillain and Jon is horrified by what Tyrion has become and is wondering what happened to the person he befriended back in AGOT (a Catelyn/Brienne-type scenario, I guess). Depending on what Jon is like post-magical ice coma/resurrection/recovery from mutiny, maybe Tyrion is the one who's horrified by the hard, uncompromising, harsh man Jon has become. Who knows?

Tyrion and Jon's friendship in AGOT being nothing more than GRRM laying the groundwork for Tyrion to become Jon's trusted advisor as Jon becomes King in the North/King of Westeros or what have you seems a bit too easy and trite, but that is a possibility.

This pretty much what I was going to say.

Will they be on opposite sides and possibly try to kill one another? Or will their previous friendship facilitate an alliance? The former seems more likely, but we'll see.

[Newstar]

This pretty much what I was going to say.

Will they be on opposite sides and possibly try to kill one another? Or will their previous friendship facilitate an alliance? The former seems more likely, but we'll see.

Yeah, it could go either way. GRRM seems to have an "All the cool kids like Tyrion" rule, though, so it seems unlikely Jon will ever change his friendly feelings towards Tyrion. That doesn't preclude them being forced to fight on opposite sides despite neither wanting it that way, though.

Tyrion befriends Jon, spends time with fAegon, and is trying to be on his way to meet Dany...it's interesting he's made/making contact with the three key Targs. Something about how the three of them connect will likely hinge on Tyrion.

Well, given that he's already managed to set Aegon on a path to war with Dany, maybe he'll manage to get all three of them fighting each other. :D

Tyrion, if he stops being a gross little fucker, may wind up as an ambassador of sorts.

Between that and the recurrent theories of him being Aerys' son, they should give him the title of honorary Targ already

Since Aegon seems set to go against Dany thanks to Tyrion's interference, he's pretty much doing the opposite of what a diplomat does (promoting peace and reconciliation). He's more of a Targ shit-disturber than anything else. :D Tyrion's way better at stirring people up than getting them to simmer down, anyway. He was pretty much born to start fights.

After everything Tyrion's family has done to Jon's, including Tyrion's own actions of marrying Sansa, that friendship is most certainly OVER.

I doubt it. GRRM seems to have a rule that "All the cool kids like Tyrion." It seems telling that Jon has had no discernible reaction to Sansa's marriage and doesn't immediately and heartily agree with Stannis that Tyrion should never get Winterfell (instead, he chooses not to "press the point" with Stannis, suggesting that he is aware of Tyrion's shot at Winterfell but is unconcerned with this, unlike Robb and Cat, who were horrified by the idea). He should logically react that way, but he doesn't, unlike the decidedly uncool Robb and Cat, who were mean to Tyrion and got Red Weddinged for their trouble, heh, because Jon is one of the "cool kids" and we can't have one of them hating Tyrion. So yeah, logically the friendship should be over, but I doubt it will be (just as I doubt Dany will be anything but charmed by Tyrion, no matter how gross and awful he is). Anything's possible, though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I keep going back to Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. While it isn't Tyrion's fault that it happened, I do have to wonder what Jon would think of Tyrion trying to pay off Bronn with part of Sansa's land inheritance.

In other words, I sort of have to agree broadly with Newstar and suggest that I don't think Tyrion and Jon will meet friendly again. The Tyrion Jon met is long gone, at the very least.

[Newstar]

I keep going back to Tyrion's marriage to Sansa. While it isn't Tyrion's fault that it happened, I do have to wonder what Jon would think of Tyrion trying to pay off Bronn with part of Sansa's land inheritance.

In other words, I sort of have to agree broadly with Newstar and suggest that I don't think Tyrion and Jon will meet friendly again. The Tyrion Jon met is long gone, at the very least.

I dunno. If he's not sufficiently horrified by the fact of the marriage to begin with (a forced marriage to a hostage no matter which way you slice it), nor by the idea of Tyrion winding up as Lord of Winterfell (which bothers Stannis more than it bothers Jon, if at all), I doubt he'd be pushed over the edge by Tyrion trying to sell off part of Sansa's inheritance.

I do tend to think that the marriage will be a non-issue if/when Tyrion and Jon next meet, either because the marriage has been annulled or Sansa is dead. Just a hunch. If the marriage were still a live issue, that would make for one awkward conversation, though.

[iolahardy]

(just as I doubt Dany will be anything but charmed by Tyrion, no matter how gross and awful he is).

Isnt a Lion (Tyrion) in the list of people Quaithe has given Dany to not trust? And as Dany usually follows Quaithe's advice maybe she will instead send him away/ imprison him? Plus the fact that he is Tywin's son, the Kingslayer's brother & will be arriving with Jorah (the man she thinks of as a traitor).

I dunno. If he's not sufficiently horrified by the fact of the marriage to begin with (a forced marriage to a hostage no matter which way you slice it), nor by the idea of Tyrion winding up as Lord of Winterfell (which bothers Stannis more than it bothers Jon, if at all), I doubt he'd be pushed over the edge by Tyrion trying to sell off part of Sansa's inheritance.

I do tend to think that the marriage will be a non-issue if/when Tyrion and Jon next meet, either because the marriage has been annulled or Sansa is dead. Just a hunch. If the marriage were still a live issue, that would make for one awkward conversation, though.

And also the fact that Jon was never very close to Sansa. For him she is Lord & Lady Stark's daughter. He doesnt share a bond with her as he does with Arya. And I agree that if/ when Jon & Tyrion meet next, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa will be a very trivial issue. They will be concentrating on things which concern the realm like the threat from the Others & dragons alike.

[Minstral]

If the two of them were to meet again it would be very awkward...

"So... uh... Sorry about your family Jon. I mean it was my sister/Nephew that killed your father, and my own father carried out the brutal murder of your brother and gave your sisters away to be married. And yes I did marry one."

They had a friendship for a matter of months, and it did seem genuine, but what will become of them years after the fact?

[Ser Knute]

I have thought about this through as well. While I admit I think there are plenty of scenarios that could play out, it ultimately comes down to how Georgey decides to move all these plots along as far as when and if Tyrion is aware of certain information.

I do believe Tyrion will find a tentative alliance with Daenarys. He'll likely have to do a lot of 'proving' to her before he becomes valuable in her eyes. I think that his knowledge of Dragons will be one way he'll accomplish that.

I'm not exactly sure how it'll play itself out but what I feel is going to happen is that there'll be a conversation at some point in which Dany maybe speaks about Illyrio and stopping off at his manse on the way to Westeros or something and this will get the ball rolling for Tyrion to see a full picture of what Illyrio and Varys have been up to and this is where he'll likely warn Dany that something may be amiss with respect to Dany/Aegon/Illyrio and even Varys.

The hard part here is how either of them (Dany or Tyrion) learn of Jon's heritage if they do at all. While we do have to admit that it may be unlikely that Jon and Tyrion's reunion will be all warm and fuzzy, I do think their prior acquaintance and cordiality could serve to make any sort of negotiations possible. I think he's really the key in my humble opinion. I think Dany will be reluctant, especially after learning of Illyrio and Varys' deception and having to deal with this Aegon chap. Tyrion however will be able to convey to Dany that he's an honest kid and worthy of negotiating with.

Of course then we have to look at Jon's side of it and all the dealings he's done and will have to have done by this time. He could be sour to Tyrion given the Lannister treatment towards Starks all this time, but again if anyone would be willing to set aside their personal feelings for the greater good, it'd be Jon.

Tyrion has to realize by this point that the only possible way he can achieve that desire of being Lord of the Rock; it certainly won't be bequeathed to him, he's going to have to take it and to do so he's likely going to have to be on the winning side of this whole mess.

I myself will find it ironic if Tyrion has to take the brunt of any retribution for the treatment of the Starks by the Lannisters considering he really hasn't tried to hurt any of them. I know some people have strong opinions about his reluctant agreement to the marriage with Sansa, but I think he was opting for the lesser of two evils there. Of course he was probably thinking in terms of his own gains moreso than the pain and grief that Sansa was feeling but, he did at least show consideration for that aspect which is more than some get in 'arranged' marriages of a political nature.

Ultimately I think it depends on how the triad of Dany/Aegon/Jon unfolds with respect to when they meet and what information Dany has prior to those events happening. Heck plenty could happen in betwixt such that Tyrion isn't around to advise her about Jon... which of course would be even more irony... something Georgey seems to think we need our daily (bookly) portions of in our ASOIAF diets.

[intheswamp]

Jon's a logical and reasonable person, and while he might be cold to Tyrion at first, they'd probably talk things through. I think the big determiner will be whether Jon's character goes through a major personality change by then, especially if he gets ressurected; he might not be that reasonable guy anymore. Tyrion is a bitter shit right now, but he's still Tyrion, and I don't see him changing much.

Also, if Dany takes Tyrion into her confidence, she might finally have someone with the balls to tell her how insane her father was, that the Starks are/were good people, and that if she hopes to win the throne she'll need the loyalty of some of the houses that fought against Aerys. (Barristan is too proper and Jorah too bitter about the Starks to make her realize the truth.)

[Newstar]

Isnt a Lion (Tyrion) in the list of people Quaithe has given Dany to not trust? And as Dany usually follows Quaithe's advice maybe she will instead send him away/ imprison him? Plus the fact that he is Tywin's son, the Kingslayer's brother & will be arriving with Jorah (the man she thinks of as a traitor).

Sure, she should have every reason to imprison or even kill Tyrion, logically, just as Jon logically never should have warmed to Tyrion, given how touchy Jon is and what a jackass Tyrion was to him in AGOT. He did warm to Tyrion, though, and I anticipate Dany will.

Tyrion has to realize by this point that the only possible way he can achieve that desire of being Lord of the Rock; it certainly won't be bequeathed to him, he's going to have to take it and to do so he's likely going to have to be on the winning side of this whole mess.

Pretty much, but if Tyrion is tied up with getting the Rock and with getting revenge on Cersei--which seem to be his top priorities as of the end of ADWD--I don't know how he'll get anywhere near Jon or the Wall. I do think he'll end up at the Wall, I just don't see how he'll get there.

And also the fact that Jon was never very close to Sansa. For him she is Lord & Lady Stark's daughter. He doesnt share a bond with her as he does with Arya.

Just because they aren't close doesn't mean he doesn't care about her...although I agree that he doesn't seem overly concerned about the marriage or its implications at all. And really, should Tyrion and Jon meet again, I'm thinking that any preexisting beefs, however legitimate, will take a backseat to the Otherpocalypse and/or a Jon vs. Dany showdown.

[Ahura Mazda]

Well, for my standards "friendship" is very far-stretched. At most they are "friendly" people, hence not thinking of each other on a later time makes completely sense.

I believe at some point in time they will be in opposite camps making some diplomatic arrangements and have to decide whether to trust each other terms, so having a good memory of each other will help in such circumstance.

[Ser Greg of House House]

LOL. That's even funny. At the beginning, we can like them both. Well, I still do, but in very different ways.

Tyrion went full on darkest timeline. He's way beyond the point of no return. I guess he could be Dany's bridge to Jon, but I don't believe for a moment things will go well. Tyrion has disaster written all over him.

[Queen Alienor]

About Jon and Sansa: Both of them recall each other throughout the books quite fondly. True, they never had the bond Jon and Arya had, but they still look at each other as family. So I think if Jon saw Tyrion as a threat to Sansa, their friendship is over.