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Did Oberyn Martell die on purpose?


BitsOfBrains

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Yes. The idea was to throw himself at the enemy in a way that Doran wasn't. It was a war prayer he hoped would inspire others to follow his example, but more importantly his death during the fight meant a slow torturous death by poison for his most hated enemy. He didn't want to "win" because that'd mean a quick death for Gregor. He had to lose in order for Gregor to suffer the full measure of what the poison could do to him. It was on purpose. The Red Viper didn't care for us or our aspirations for him. He got what he wanted out of that embassadorial visit.

That sounds the most likely I doubt he wanted to die but he wanted the mountain to suffer and probably thought his death was a fair price to pay for the death and agony. I think also that he was a lot more passionate than his brother and instead of just beating clegane he got so caught up in the moment thinking about what had happened to his sister and now he finally was in a position to avenge her that he let his guard down. Has his death done dorme any good that remains to be seen if they pick the wrong dragon and act too soon they could be destroyed before Dany arrives

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Hmmm. Couldn't it be more of a win-win scenario? If he wins the fight, Gregor dies and he has his revenge. If he loses the fight, he's poisoned Gregor and Gregor dies a painful, agonizing death, and he has his revenge.



I don't think he deliberately set out to die, but I do think he was fine with the possibility of Gregor killing him in the fight and made appropriate preparations to ensure that Gregor would suffer and die even if Gregor managed to kill him during the fight.





Has his death done dorme any good that remains to be seen if they pick the wrong dragon and act too soon they could be destroyed before Dany arrives


The books have been pretty consistent about the fruitlessness of revenge. There's that where Ellaria is pointing out the pointlessness of seeking revenge for Oberyn, and the Sand Snakes are ignoring her and dismissing her warnings. It struck me as pretty ominous:





Obara bristled. “I never did and never shall.” She gave the skull a mocking kiss. “This is a start, I’ll grant.”


“A start?” said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. “Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?” (...)



Ellaria’s cheeks were wet with tears, her dark eyes shining. Even weeping, she has a strength in her, the captain thought. “Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?” Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain’s head. “I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?” (...)



“War will come, whether we wish it or not,” said Obara. “A boy king sits the Iron Throne. Lord Stannis holds the Wall and is gathering northmen to his cause. The two queens are squabbling over Tommen like bitches with a juicy bone. The ironmen have taken the Shields and are raiding up the Mander, deep into the heart of the Reach, which means Highgarden will be preoccupied as well. Our enemies are in disarray. The time is ripe.”



Ripe for what? To make more skulls?” Ellaria Sand turned to the prince. “They will not see. I can hear no more of this.




Ellaria's the only one of that lot with any sense, and the Sand Snakes stupidly ignore her warning, so set are they on revenge for their father and the downfall of the Lannisters. (Reminds me of the passage where Catelyn tries to talk sense but gets ignored in favour of the King of the North call to arms.) No good can come of it, especially since the passage seems to foreshadow the three Sand Snakes dying: "If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you?" When Ellaria takes her leave, Doran promises her no harm will come to her girls, which makes me wonder if they in fact will (not because of Doran, just because of Martell shit hitting the fan).



There's also this passage from the Arianne chapter in TWOW:



War is happening, thought Arianne, and this time Dorne will not be spared. "Doom and death are coming," Ellaria Sand had warned them, before she took her own leave from Prince Doran. "It is time for my little snakes to scatter, the better to survive the carnage." Ellaria was returning to her father's seat at Hellholt. With her went her daughter Loreza, who had just turned seven. Dorea remained at the Water Gardens, one child amongst a hundred. Obella was to be dispatched to Sunspear, to serve as a cupbearer to the wife of the castellan, Manfrey Martell.


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If he really cared about winning why not use a quick poison so that he would get cut, weaken quickly, and allow for a quick killing blow.

Because he wanted more then anything to get a confession out of Gregor and killing him quickly would ruin that.

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Oh, I'm sure he has far more than eight children. If he doesn't have any sons it's because they probably formed their own gang -- the Sand Scorpions, or the Desert Dragons, or something. Either that, or he managed to actually wear his penis away into a nub from overuse and he can't actually impregnate anyone any more.

That, or he wears tity-whities, maybe they don't have boxer shorts in Dorne.

I believe he just got carried away by his emotions over Elia, and made a mistake. Gregor was dead when Oberyon scratched him.

But what is this theory that he poisoned Tywin? Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread.

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That, or he wears tity-whities, maybe they don't have boxer shorts in Dorne.

I believe he just got carried away by his emotions over Elia, and made a mistake. Gregor was dead when Oberyon scratched him.

But what is this theory that he poisoned Tywin? Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67678-oberyn-poisoned-tywin/

Everything you need to know, just know there is still plenty of plausible deniability.

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I always assumed he just got overconfident. However, it's possible that he was always depressed over the death of Elia -- they were very, very close siblings-- and maybe he felt that the fulfillment of his revenge was a good time to join her. I believe that one of the rumors about Ashara is that she killed herself over the death of her brother, so it is conceivable that a brother might kill himself over the death of a sister. His cockiness could be a cover for depression.



On a related note, I've always thought that the main reason he didn't marry was because he saw how badly Rhaegar treated his sister, so I can see some support for the theory.


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I always assumed he just got overconfident. However, it's possible that he was always depressed over the death of Elia -- they were very, very close siblings-- and maybe he felt that the fulfillment of his revenge was a good time to join her. I believe that one of the rumors about Ashara is that she killed herself over the death of her brother, so it is conceivable that a brother might kill himself over the death of a sister. His cockiness could be a cover for depression.

On a related note, I've always thought that the main reason he didn't marry was because he saw how badly Rhaegar treated his sister, so I can see some support for the theory.

But Oberyn treats his paramour and his daughters well, so I don't know why he wouldn't be a good husband.

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His sister's horrible end aside, Oberyn struck me as a guy who loved life. Whether he was fighting, loving, getting bored forging Maester chain links, whatever, I felt that he relished living and had as much fun as he could. I don't think he would have thrown that away on purpose. Poor guy just got caught up in the moment and let his sure victory make him cocky and careless.

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But Oberyn treats his paramour and his daughters well, so I don't why he wouldn't be a good husband.

I meant that he might be soured on the concept of marriage. You're right, he actually seems pretty nice to his family.

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I think that from the start Oberyn was almost sure that he could not survive the combat. However, he was prepared to die hard and to take Mountain with him. He was on a mission, and of course he took that combat as a part of the Plan, but that's not exactly "wanting to die". But it turned out that winning was not so impossible as everyone thought. Oberyn seems to me a guy determined to squeeze the maximum of himself in any situation, however difficult it was. I think he intended only to scratch Mountain with his poisoned spear, and let the rest be as it would be. But due to this badassery (and in part due to that he didn't especially cared for his life) Oberyn almost won, and he was high on feelings which made him reckless. You see, he just got the confession, check in the list; he got the Mountain scratched, check; he survived, that's an additional bonus; he's ready to finish Mountain here and now, that a huge additional bonus. No, that moment he was not going to die. That just happened.


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I meant that he might be soured on the concept of marriage. You're right, he actually seems pretty nice to his family.

Except for recklessly throwing his life away to chase after revenge, essentially abandoning his paramour and leaving his young daughters fatherless.

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Does this sound like a man who believes he is about to die?



“You will have no cause for complaint. Though Ser Gregor may. However thick his plate, there will be gaps at the joints. Inside the elbow and knee, beneath the arms... I will find a place to tickle him, I promise you.” He set the spear aside. “It is said that a Lannister always pays his debts. Perhaps you will return to Sunspear with me when the day’s bloodletting is done. My brother Doran would be most pleased to meet the rightful heir to Casterly Rock... especially if he brought his lovely wife, the Lady of Winterfell .”
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He didn't need Oberyn to die for that to happen. Bronn could have died just as easily. Or Tyrion could have just been found guilty as a result of the kangaroo court.

We know Bronn well enough that he would not risk his life against the Mountain in Tyrion's trial. The only one who can do that was Oberyn.

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I think that Oberyn fully intended to live and walk away after the duel. The poison was just an insurance policy, I don't think it was part of some plot where he expected to die.



He thought that he could get Gregor to roll over on Tywin. After spending an entire duel wearing down his opponent and keeping a full spear length away from him, he gets within grabbing distance of Gregor and pays for overconfidence.


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