Whats up with the Jorah dislike?

[SeanF]

The Stallion that Mounts the World everyone.

death before dany?

More like death after her.

Perhaps, the vision she had in the House of the Undying was not meant to symbolise her son standing in front of a blazing city, but herself.

[SeanF]

Wow, I don't see it quite that bleakly. Maybe she'll kick some Other ass and save some people.

She might do both.

But an army and navy made up (perhaps) of Dothraki, Ironborn, sellswords, religious fanatics, angry exiles from Westeros, and vengeful freed slaves won't be gentle.

It sounds more like (as Cicero put it) "the army of the Underworld."

[Tyrion1991]

@ L Cygne

How did Jorah betray her?

He betrayed Robert Baratheon, Varys and joined Danys side. His activities had zero impact on her fortunes. Neither we the reader, nor Daenerys, knows how involved he was in the plot to kill her. We know he is Varys man, not Roberts, he is always identified as the "spiders creature". Varys is a Targ supporter. His claim that he was just watching her and was ordered to save her by Varys seems very likely given what is revealed in ADWD.

You have to admit. Dany is really paranoid about her 3 betrayals and was far too quick to jump up and say that Jorah was one of them. I am pretty sure if you have an epic magical prophecy foretelling your great betrayals it would be something a little more severe than something which she wasn't even aware of until a year later. This a shadow she was all to eager to get rid of and did leap at the chance.

You do realize you are calling a Jorah a "baddin" even though he has saved Danys life and is actively trying to return to her side. As opposed to Daario who is advocating murdering children, has cut his comrades heads off and who even Dany herself thinks can be a "monster". There are several instances where the text does hint at a conflict between Dany and Jorah "Dragons can die. But so do dragonslayers."; as well as allusions to him being dangerous. But, these are just subtle allusions and they could even have another meaning entirely, but we know that Daario is bad because, well, look what he does, how he acts and how Dany thinks about him.

Plus, I think you're understating the fact that its a vision of Jorah in Danys final chapter where Dany realizes the error of her ways in Meereen and decides to change. Implying its thoughts of Daario that are the main deal in her final chapter is reading too much into it. All we see is that she is in love with him and wants to be with him; thus choosing Daario over Hidzhar.

[Winter's Knight]

He was spying for Varys. That is how the latter knew she was pregnant-he was actively providing her enemy Robert B. with information against her.That's a betrayal.

[Tyrion1991]

He was spying for Varys. That is how the latter knew she was pregnant-he was actively providing her enemy Robert B. with information against her.That's a betrayal.

He also joined Ned Stark in rebellion, was knighted by Robert and served him loyally for a decade. Does that count as a betrayal of the Targs and Dany? Dany presumably knows that Jorah served him because he told her the story of how he was knighted and she isn't surprised to learn he was on the other side of the Trident. These betrayals to her house were in the past but Dany never had a problem with them despite being far more severe than what Dany accuses him of. His spying on her was also a past event and his loyalties had now changed. If Dany was okay with this argument with regards to his past actions then how can she turn around and say his spying is wrong. She knows Jorah is loyal to her but feels that his crimes warrant punishment or else she isn't being just in her mind. But she previously had no issue with Jorah saying "I fought your family and killed Targaryen soldiers; but now I am loyal to you", yet later on saying "I was spying on you; but now I am loyal to you." is this shocking betrayal.

I always felt that Dany completely over-reacts to this revelation. When we use the word "Betrayel" in ASOIAF, we think of Neds men being butchered in the throne room by the watch, the Red Wedding and MMD killing her child and Drogo. Acting as though Jorahs actions are comparable to that is really going OTT. Naming him her second betrayel after MMD puts this in her mind on par with that event. I just don't think we're all meant to agree with Dany that Jorah is her betrayal for gold. A betrayel where the guy prevents the misdeed from happening and then goes on to be one of your most loyal servants? That doesn't sound like betrayal.

[WeddinGuest]

Tyrion1991, I don't like Daario much either, and I doubt Dany/Daario is intended to be an "endgame" ship. BUT it seems you're seeing Daario-Dany-Jorah as a classic love triangle, as if Dany is trying to choose between Daario and Jorah, or that Dany is too blinded by Daario to notice Jorah. But you can bash Daario all you want, it doesn't matter. Even if Dany decides Daario isn't right for her, that in no way means she'll automatically turn to Jorah as her next option.

Now, maybe an unbiased observer would conclude that Jorah is a more ethical, moral person than Daario is. But people don't choose partners that way, as a way to reward them for being good people. Unless you're talking about fairy tales about the hero rescuing the princess and automatically gaining her hand in marriage as a reward, with little discussion of whether the princess herself wanted to marry the hero, or was just forced to do so by the grateful king. But ASOIAF is NOT a fairy tale.

Also, while you could argue that Jorah has nothing to apologize for, certainly, Dany doesn't agree. I think she'd have been much more merciful if Jorah had apologized, much as Barristan did. Even if they HAD been a couple, that whole "love means never having to say you're sorry" is, again, the stuff of movies and fairy tales. In real life, if a cheating husband refuses to apologize to his wife "because it was just sex and didn't mean anything" or whatever, chances are he'll wind up an ex-husband. I'm not at all surprised that Jorah is, for now, an ex-employee of Dany.

[Lady of Long Lake]

a whining, slaving scumbag who's constantly blaming others for his mistakes instead of taking responsibility for his own actions and you ask why he's disliked?

Exactly my feelings.

[Le Cygne]

But you can bash Daario all you want, it doesn't matter. Even if Dany decides Daario isn't right for her, that in no way means she'll automatically turn to Jorah as her next option.

Interesting, Dany uses the "never" word about Jorah. Thinking back to your version 2.0 list, Sansa used the "never" word with Tyrion, too. Never is a very strong word.

Dany shivered, and pulled the lionskin tight about her. She looked like me. It explained much that she had not truly understood. He wants me, she realized...

He can never have me, but one day I can give him back his home and honor. That much I can do for him.

She tries to imagine being with Jorah romantically, and each time, she dismisses the possibility, and imagines who she does want:

And what man could hope to rival Drogo, who had died with his hair uncut and rode now through the night lands, the stars his khalasar?

Later she imagines who she wants again:

Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow...

And then we see, that man is Daario:

Khal Drogo had been her sun-and-stars, but he had been dead so long that Daenerys had almost forgotten how it felt to love and be loved. Daario had helped her to remember. I was dead and he brought me back to life. I was asleep and he woke me. My brave captain.

And she goes on to say "No one had ever kissed her like Daario Naharis" so this is even a step beyond Drogo.

If things don't work out with Daario, she's going to wait some more. She wants what she wants.

[Tyrion1991]

Tyrion1991, I don't like Daario much either, and I doubt Dany/Daario is intended to be an "endgame" ship. BUT it seems you're seeing Daario-Dany-Jorah as a classic love triangle, as if Dany is trying to choose between Daario and Jorah, or that Dany is too blinded by Daario to notice Jorah. But you can bash Daario all you want, it doesn't matter. Even if Dany decides Daario isn't right for her, that in no way means she'll automatically turn to Jorah as her next option.

Now, maybe an unbiased observer would conclude that Jorah is a more ethical, moral person than Daario is. But people don't choose partners that way, as a way to reward them for being good people. Unless you're talking about fairy tales about the hero rescuing the princess and automatically gaining her hand in marriage as a reward, with little discussion of whether the princess herself wanted to marry the hero, or was just forced to do so by the grateful king. But ASOIAF is NOT a fairy tale.

Also, while you could argue that Jorah has nothing to apologize for, certainly, Dany doesn't agree. I think she'd have been much more merciful if Jorah had apologized, much as Barristan did. Even if they HAD been a couple, that whole "love means never having to say you're sorry" is, again, the stuff of movies and fairy tales. In real life, if a cheating husband refuses to apologize to his wife "because it was just sex and didn't mean anything" or whatever, chances are he'll wind up an ex-husband. I'm not at all surprised that Jorah is, for now, an ex-employee of Dany.

If ASOIAF didn't have a degree of romanticism and high fantasy logic in then:

* Tyrion would never have found love with a beautiful woman in the first place.

* The Hound would not have stood up for Sansa, they would not be having this whole beauty and the Beast thing and he certainly wouldn't have helped Arya.

* Khal Drogo would have simply raped Dany. Hes a Dothraki. The best Dothraki. Finding and falling in love with your barbaric husband is a romantic tale.

I just think you are exaggerating how "realistic" the series has been in relation to this point. Just because it isn't like Wheel of Time where people are instantly besotted doesn't mean there isn't the use of this. If anything, I have always felt that Daario is a critique and subversion of the way Wheel of Time characters like Egwene think about Gawyn for instance. Ignoring all of their faults, being totally OTT, not concerned about whether this is mutual.

He does apologize and is on his knees by the end of the trial. Jorahs tone changes hugely when he is accused of having tried to murder Dany and her child. Before then, he had already been punished for spying by being sent into Meereen to die and Dany wasn't exactly being endearing by saying a part of her wished they didn't come back and suggesting they had little to do with winning the siege. I'd also just like to add that Dany does consciously try to get him and Barristan killed by sending them into the sewers and several times thinks Jorah would have been better off dead. This isn't an impartial judge here. Dany is clearly letting her personal feelings get in the way.

@ Le Cygne

Beyond Khal Drogo? You're wondering why I am thinking this isn't appropriate thinking. Drogo was a god. He was Rand al Thor who couldn't speak English. Daario isn't even close to him.

Well no. Jon Snow is nothing like Daario Naharis. So I think Danys experiences with Vic and Daario are going to make her attitudes towards men change. I'll admit it is a very far out claim that she could end up with Jorah for a time, however, because of the House of the Undying visions it is likely to change to explain her feelings towards Jon. That is the most likely scenario going forward.

Well I think GRRM having his POVs constantly go on about how love is poison and having passionate relationships fail or get you killed is pretty indicative of how things with Daario are going to end.

GRRM could be talking down the idea of them getting together because they basically are a Queen/Loyal Knight romance. Doing this and saying "never" would throw people off and maintain a sense of suspense. It would be extremely surprising if they did become an item and especially if Jorah briefly moves on. How else could he have two characters meet in the first chapter and end with them in love and keep that element of uncertainty. Compare that to Wheel of Time where you KNOW that Nynaeve is going to be with Lan. You KNOW that Egwene is going to be with Gawyn. IMO those two and their relationship is embellished during the first three books far too much and you have to wonder why HBO would have picked a better looking actor for Jorah if they weren't trying to encourage thoughts like that from the audience. All I am saying is that HBO knows the ending and I don't think who Dany ends up with is going to be the first blue haired sellsword who wanders into her tent that she fancies.

But as I said J+D is the most likely endgame and always will be. I simply think considering other things is worthwhile.

[Le Cygne]

Beyond Khal Drogo? You're wondering why I am thinking this isn't appropriate thinking. Drogo was a god. He was Rand al Thor who couldn't speak English. Daario isn't even close to him.

You don't have to think it's appropriate that she thinks he's a better kisser. I don't recall that she asked. She makes Drogo-Daario associations (and both are associated with dragons) and in her final chapter, she associates Daario with Drogon (the dragon named for Drogo).

Jon Snow is nothing like Daario Naharis. So I think Danys experiences with Vic and Daario are going to make her attitudes towards men change.

Once she changes her attitude, she will appreciate the right man (wait, I thought that was Jorah, now it's Jon?)

GRRM could be talking down the idea of them getting together because they basically are a Queen/Loyal Knight romance. Doing this and saying "never" would throw people off and maintain a sense of suspense.

That's fine that you think Jorah and Dany will be together romantically, but I was asking you to make a case. Seems like the case is this, and I'm not seeing it:

* She tried to imagine them together after he said she looks like Lynesse and she realized that he wanted her, even though she said he'd "never" have her.

* She tried to imagine them together after he kissed her, even though she said she wanted someone hotter.

* Daario bashing.

* Jorah is in love with her.

[SeanF]

I always felt that Dany completely over-reacts to this revelation. When we use the word "Betrayel" in ASOIAF, we think of Neds men being butchered in the throne room by the watch, the Red Wedding and MMD killing her child and Drogo. Acting as though Jorahs actions are comparable to that is really going OTT. Naming him her second betrayel after MMD puts this in her mind on par with that event. I just don't think we're all meant to agree with Dany that Jorah is her betrayal for gold. A betrayel where the guy prevents the misdeed from happening and then goes on to be one of your most loyal servants? That doesn't sound like betrayal.

If I were in Dany's position, I'd be livid to learn that my bodyguard had been sending reports on me to my enemies.

And, Dany would have forgiven him, had he been less truculent and insolent about it.

[Arya kiddin']

What's up with the Jorah like?

[Winter's Knight]

What's up with the Jorah like?

A-men.

[Nictarion]

And, Dany would have forgiven him, had he been less truculent and insolent about it.

Exactly. She forgave Barristan after all.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't dislike Jorah, but in the beginning he was informing the IT about Dany's whereabouts. He is not 100% pure, but well, he learned his lesson and he fell in love with Dany. Like I said,I don't dislike him, he is very loyal (if we forget what he was doing in the beginning), but he is not really a favourite of mine

[Parwan]

What really matters is the story. GRRM:

To me the question is, how does the character feel about it? Does the character feel oppression or despair? Or are they enjoying the experience?

This is a good way of looking at Martin's work. Of course, every reader reads a different story. Sometimes the differences are slight, sometimes very large. To me, large questions are "What sort of situation are the characters in?" and "How does the society shape them?"

I can't say I hate Ser Jorah, but he's pretty disreputable. His suggestion that they sell boys and girls into brothels was downright evil.

...

That's accurate. Jorah also does some honorable things, and his advice is often worthwhile. He pushes the envelope on what I'd want to call a grey character. The point he made to Dany about how the Unsullied, unlike almost all other soldiers, would not sack a city except if ordered to do so is important. It argues against the idea that the dragon queen is going to go over to Westeros and engage in a war of terror.

It's up to you how you think of each character. I don't think that there are very many readers who view each character solely through the lens of someone living in the world of the story and don't think critically about them at all except from the perspective of the other characters though. Jorah's actions can be condemned from the perspective of both characters in the context of the story and readers in the context of the modern era though. That doesn't mean that he's not a likable character to anyone, since he does have some better traits, but I can definitely see how he could be seen as kind of creepy

I'd say I judge things more on the basis of sociology and political science, less on the basis of psychology and moral character, than most readers do. I see Jorah as a creature of his environment. This does not excuse all the bad stuff he does, but it is an issue worthy of consideration.

Even if he is genuinely in love with her, I certainly don't see Daario as being good for her, from an ethical point of view. In fact, if her lieutenants are Daario, Tyrion, Marwyn, Moqorro, and Victarion, I should think the result will be massacre, pillage, and devastation on a gigantic scale, across both continents.

I admit, it will be fun to read about.

This is one of the interesting things about ASoIaF. GRRM "paints on a big canvas." There are lots if different aspects to the story. There are lots of ways matters could go right or wrong. I don't think that Moqorro and Tyron will necessarily lead Dany down the path of destruction. I certainly don't see why the Imp would want to burn King's Landing. I doubt that Victarion will ever amount to much as an adviser. It's hard to say what the queen's reaction will be to the whole red-priests-and-AR thing. No doubt there are some unpleasant possibilities, but they are only possibilities. Other important players are involved. Neither Jorah nor Missandei will council Daenerys to follow a pure scorched earth policy.

Since this thread is about Jorah, let's concentrate on him. A theme I keep sounding on many threads is the idea of systemic problems. The relationship between the dragon queen and her knight is as good an example as any. There are some warped aspects to this relationship; I don't think this should be seen strictly in terms of defects in either person. I read often about feudal bargains--the idea that both the leader and the followers pledge themselves to do certain things. I read this in posts, blogs, etc. However, I find almost nothing of it in the text of ASoIaF. Instead, what we almost always have is slavish devotion on the part of the followers. I just reread the critical part of Dany's pyre chapter in AGoT. Jorah promises his queen essentially everything. He will follow and obey, no matter what. She promises him--

A sword.

Now, that's not much of a deal. It's a significant part of the problem between these two people. It's a significant part of the problem with the seven kingdoms.

[Le Cygne]

This is a good way of looking at Martin's work. Of course, every reader reads a different story. Sometimes the differences are slight, sometimes very large. To me, large questions are "What sort of situation are the characters in?" and "How does the society shape them?"

Good questions, and essential to understanding why they do the things they do.

Now, that's not much of a deal. It's a significant part of the problem between these two people. It's a significant part of the problem with the seven kingdoms.

I see your larger point, and it's a good one, but Jorah had a couple of other things going on, too. Varys and issues with women (Dany, Lynesse).

[Tyrion1991]

You don't have to think it's appropriate that she thinks he's a better kisser. I don't recall that she asked. She makes Drogo-Daario associations (and both are associated with dragons) and in her final chapter, she associates Daario with Drogon (the dragon named for Drogo).

Once she changes her attitude, she will appreciate the right man (wait, I thought that was Jorah, now it's Jon?)

That's fine that you think Jorah and Dany will be together romantically, but I was asking you to make a case. Seems like the case is this, and I'm not seeing it:

* She tried to imagine them together after he said she looks like Lynesse and she realized that he wanted her, even though she said he'd "never" have her.

* She tried to imagine them together after he kissed her, even though she said she wanted someone hotter.

* Daario bashing.

* Jorah is in love with her.

Why do you keep coming back to this notion that I am not allowed to have an opinion on Dany and her love interests? We were meant to have an opinion on Tyrion and Shae. Tyrion dwells on his relationship with her a lot. Its exactly the same with Daario. Saying "you aren't her father" is just silly, obviously the writer invites you to dwell on the rights and wrongs of a characters actions.

Right, I see, so trying to put my suggestion into context by saying Jon is still the most likely final love interest for Dany ends up being thrown in my face. The idea of Jorah and Dany getting together is an alternative and simply based on a gut feeling. This is based on references in the text, the emphasis put on their relationship and the fact it would IMO be very good sleight of hand from GRRM. It would mean he was able to keep a sense of suspense around two characters getting together despite having been together for most of the series. I mean are things like "Don't you dare presume to touch me or call be name again" meant to be seen as slightly ironic later on? Why would Dany imply she was going to meet Jorah again when she is exiling him for good? With the Jon Snow example I was only trying to put this into context. Don't leap for my throat when I am trying to be balanced and fair. Theres no call to be touchy because you wrote a long article about Daario and Daenerys.

Using physical attraction as the sole basis of a relationship is pretty shallow and especially in a book where we can't "see" Daario for ourselves. I really think you are underplaying the fact that Daario isn't a likable character. Compare him to Khal Drogo. What was important there was that he had a very traditional affectionate relationship with her, loved how fierce and strong she was and was drawn to that. Hes also a very cool, powerful and masculine character; hes Conan meets Genghis Khan. With Daario, even Dany herself thinks that he would not want to be with her if she wasn't Queen and most of her thoughts of him relate to his physical appearance. His only achievement in the series is being a sellsword captain unlike Drogo who was master of thousands and a warrior without compare. We also have Daarios bizarre and effete appearance with the blue hair, bad puns and gold teeth. Things like him fingering his dagger statues to seduce Dany are also just plain silly. Now, again, as I said before, maybe this is like Darkstar and GRRM really wants you to think that Daario is the real deal and take his behavior seriously. But IMO he is a male version of Shae.

@Aryakiddin

Because Danys thoughts about him are so cute and endearing. Hes her bear.

[Le Cygne]

Because Danys thoughts about him are so cute and endearing. Hes her bear.

Someone else wrote the article, I never took credit for that, I just linked to it. The longest thing I posted here was some quotes. But let's get back to how "cute and endearing" Jorah Mormont is.

[Parwan]

...

Parwan said:

Now, that's not much of a deal. It's a significant part of the problem between these two people. It's a significant part of the problem with the seven kingdoms.

I see your larger point, and it's a good one, but Jorah had a couple of other things going on, too. Varys and issues with women (Dany, Lynesse).

Agreed. There are reasons why men like Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish wind up in positions of influence and power. We need to understand these reasons when we analyze the actions taken by the men. Sometimes this can lead us to a limited sympathy for them. That's not the same as saying, "Well, you really can't blame these guys, because…" The answer to that is usually, "Yes we can. We have solid reasons for blaming them."