Whats up with the Jorah dislike?

[Leif]

I didn't even know Jorah was a hated character. News to me. I don't mind the guy, he's kinda creepy at times but doesn't seem bad overall. Though, show Jorah is way cooler and actually one of my favorite characters.

[Le Cygne]

What really matters is the story. GRRM:

"My goal as a writer has always been to create very very strong immersive fiction. I do not want my reader to feel as though he's reading a book, held at arm's length, I want to immerse him in the action. When he looks back on that reading experience, a week later, a year later, ten years later, I want him to almost feel like he's lived that events, not as though he's read about them sitting in a comfortable armchair."

To me the question is, how does the character feel about it? Does the character feel oppression or despair? Or are they enjoying the experience?

[SeanF]

I can't say I hate Ser Jorah, but he's pretty disreputable. His suggestion that they sell boys and girls into brothels was downright evil.

Dany can't really complain about his making a pass at her, given that she did flash her goods at him immediately prior to that.

[Le Cygne]

I don't know, if she wore something revealing, would that be inviting a pass, too? Why can't he wait until he gets a sign from her that she's receptive? There's subtext, where things are things are passing between two characters beneath the surface, but I wasn't picking that up, either. I don't think Dany was giving off any such sign to Jorah. She was excited and wanted to get dressed. She was treating him like a female friend. Was that insensitive? Maybe. But he could have looked the other way.

[Jasta11]

I can't say I hate Ser Jorah, but he's pretty disreputable. His suggestion that they sell boys and girls into brothels was downright evil.

Dany can't really complain about his making a pass at her, given that she did flash her goods at him immediately prior to that.

Jorah has seen a lot of goods being flashed in Quarth by then, Dany's and otherwise. It was slightly careless of her to remove her clothes right next to a man she knows desires her, but obviously we can't pin the event on her as Jorah should definitely have kept himself in check. It's more than making a pass at her, it's a forced kiss. I always found it was a heat of the moment thing; Dany just made a decision Jorah supported, both of them were happy, and he forgot himself in the rush of the situation. Not that it excuses it, but as far as creepyness goes Jorah is still nowhere near the top of this serie's ladder imo.

@Lord Firkraag: if you're going to post stupid strawmen, do it on a politics-oriented site. Or youtube comments, that's about the level your intervention was.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, I think she just wanted things back to where they were before he did it. Two things come out of those situations, if she's receptive, they go forward. If not, very awkward forever after. In football terms, he fumbled.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Because he's creepy and a slaver.

[David Selig]

It's absolutely called for in this case.

I have no idea whether what I said applies to you, but there's no doubt that it applies to a large number of the "liberal", Puritan-feminist commenters who are so judgemental about the characters in aSoIaF.

What's a Puritan-feminist? I am dying to know.

These books are written by a modern author for a modern audience. It's very clear the readers aren't supposed to think for example "How generous of Tywin to not kill Tyrion at his birth and only treat him with disdain his whole life, he was a dwarf so it would've been justified, what a great guy". No, we are supposed to be appalled by the extreme prejudicie towards him, by the blatant sexism shown by many characters, by the disregard of the nobles for the lives of the smallfolk, etc.

[Mad Monkey]

It's up to you how you think of each character. I don't think that there are very many readers who view each character solely through the lens of someone living in the world of the story and don't think critically about them at all except from the perspective of the other characters though. Jorah's actions can be condemned from the perspective of both characters in the context of the story and readers in the context of the modern era though. That doesn't mean that he's not a likable character to anyone, since he does have some better traits, but I can definitely see how he could be seen as kind of creepy

[SeanF]

What's a Puritan-feminist? I am dying to know.

These books are written by a modern author for a modern audience. It's very clear the readers aren't supposed to think for example "How generous of Tywin to not kill Tyrion at his birth and only treat him with disdain his whole life, he was a dwarf so it would've been justified, what a great guy". No, we are supposed to be appalled by the extreme prejudicie towards him, by the blatant sexism shown by many characters, by the disregard of the nobles for the lives of the smallfolk, etc.

Yes and no. Martin is very clever in the way he toys with our sympathies. Of course one sympathises with Tyrion having to live down being referred to as "the imp: ". Dany being sold to Drogo; Brienne being mocked because she wants to be a knight. But then, on reflection, they all possess enormous wealth and privilege, compared to most members of their societies; in normal circumstances, none of them will ever go hungry or be short of money.

And, he also shows that people who are very sympathetic, can still think and behave in unsympathetic ways. Hence, Tyrion's attitude towards women and the Smallfolk; Dany's contempt for the Ghiscari and her cruelty.

[mormont]

[mod] Stick to discussing the books. Not each other. [/mod]

[Roose and Booze]

Don't know about feminism but the allegations that Jorah is creepy because he is attracted to a 14 or 15 years old sounds moralistic and puritan for me. People are saying Dany is a child. How is she a child? She was a sexually liberated woman already the time Jorah tried to kiss her and just a few days from fighting wars and conquering cities and later ruling one of them. Someone has said that he tried to rape her. Last month I tried to kiss a woman who I thought was interested in me. She wasn't. Awkward? Hell, yes! Rape? Not in a billion years.

And if you're talking about 21st century worldviews in my country the age of consent is 14 years. Last time I checked I was a 21st century citizen living in a democratic country. The idea that an adult guy can't have consensual sex with any girl of 14 or 15 years old is only based on outdated morality in my opinion. There's 14 years old girls who still act like children but there's girls of the same age who have no problems with their sexuality and want to have sex with older guys. I have a female friend who dated a 30 years old guy when she was 14. I am sure she doesn't carry any emotional scars because of that. I think we can't ignore psychological relativism, culture and freedom. That idea means we are still treating sex as a taboo, something sacred and punitive. That's my opinion.

[Lointain]

Don't worry Jorah fans (if exist any), in the end Dany would pardon him and will give him the Wardenship of the North to Ser Jorah "Friendzone" Mormont, giving three draconian reasons to the northerners accepting their new Warden.

[Le Cygne]

She missed him in the end, in between her endless Daario thoughts, there was a beautiful moment where she said thought about him:

The voice was no more than a whisper, yet somehow Dany felt that he was walking just behind her. My bear, she thought, my old sweet bear, who loved me and betrayed me. She had missed him so. She wanted to see his ugly face, to wrap her arms around him and press herself against his chest, but she knew that if she turned around Ser Jorah would be gone.

“I am dreaming,” she said. “A waking dream, a walking dream. I am alone and lost.”

Lost, because you lingered, in a place that you were never meant to be, murmured Ser Jorah, as softly as the wind. Alone, because you sent me from your side.

“You betrayed me. You informed on me, for gold.”

For home. Home was all I ever wanted.

“And me. You wanted me.” Dany had seen it in his eyes.

I did, the grass whispered, sadly.

“You kissed me. I never said you could, but you did. You sold me to my enemies, but you meant it when you kissed me.”

[Tyrion1991]

She missed him in the end, in between her endless Daario thoughts, there was a beautiful moment where she said thought about him:

Aww :crying:

I think she loves him and just doesn't want to admit it.

At any rate. I simply refuse to believe that GRRM isn't slightly teasing shipping the two characters. They're far too close and the number of sentiments like this by Dany go far beyond simply a platonic relationship between a mentor/protector and a Queen.

[Tyrion1991]

Context for ages in Westeros the author made clear here:

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons/

One can fight it or go along with it. Dany wants to have sex at 13, at 14, at 15, and to deny that is to deny the story. One can pretend she doesn't, for whatever reasons, but that's not the way the story was written, as the author has said repeatedly.

The scene unfolds quite differently. She quite simply does not desire him. Is she lonely and does she miss a man kissing her and making love to her, sure. She's put these thoughts aside, and she doesn't want to anymore. But she doesn't want Jorah. And she's not dwelling on his cock inside her, as you say, nor picturing his face in her fantasies at all, this "more comely" face she pictures in the narrative is to set up the introduction of Daario, who she calls "beautiful" (and still refers to as "her love" after thinking about him a dozen times in her last chapter in the series to date).

The scene I was quoting is from A Clash of Kings not the ASOS chapter you are referencing, which yes, is setting up Daario. The language is deliberatly different to represent that she is over Khal Drogo by book 3.

P181 Daenerys chapter 1 A Clash of Kings

"Dany shivered and pulled the lionskin tight around her. She looked like me. It explained much that she had not truly understood.He loves me as he loved her, not as a knight loves his Queen but as a man loves a woman. She tried to imagine herself in Jorahs arms, kissing him, pleasuring him, letting him enter her. It was no good. When she closed his eyes, his face kept changing into Drogo's."

Pulling the lionskin around her protectively is consistent with her being creeped out. However she immediately goes on to vividly think about what having sex with Jorah would be like and the use of the word "kept" implies she tries this several times. This is a very ambiguous reaction. Why would Dany even consider or think this if she was creeped out by it?

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I have no love for Jorah, but i find it ironic/biased (i don't know what the right word is) that the two things Dany doesn't like that Jorah does, stare at her and kiss her without leave. Darrio does in Storm and Dance (first kiss) respectively.

[Tyrion1991]

As for the whole "creepyness" factor; since Dany herself never mentions Jorah's age as an issue, their age difference isn't what disturbs me about Jorah's Dany obsession. It's the sense I get that Jorah very well might not be as into Dany when she's, say, 20 years older, and that he might be going back to buying whores that look like how the 14 year old Dany did. It's the sense that, much as Tyrion seems to see Sansa as "Tysha 2.0", or LF sees Sansa as "Cat 2.0", that Jorah may very well see Dany as "Lynesse 2.0", and love her for being "like Lynesse, but better", than truly for herself.

I don't think so. For one, Dany aged 35 is still going to be hot so its a non-issue, by the time she is too old Jorah will be ancient (although if Jeor is any hint the Mormonts seem to age like Batman off Dark Knight Returns). Secondly, Jorah only once compared Dany to Lynesse at her questioning and has never made that comparison since. Compare that to Littlefinger who constantly compares Sansa to Cat. Also, we haven't met Lynesse but Dany is not a greedy character concerned with wealth whereas Lynesse was. Dany settled in with the Dothraki and Lynesse couldn't stand the spartan life of Bear Island. Lynesse did fall in love with ugly Jorah, Dany did not. Lynesse liked dresses, balls and gowns, Dany is a fierce warrior queen and blood of the dragon. Jorah himself acknowledges this when he calls her the bravest, sweetest girl he has ever known. From what little we know, Lynesse is very different to Daenerys is several key regards. I suspect that Jorahs comaprison was only meant to infer that "you also look like a goddess, the maid made flesh etc etc", not a direct comparison.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Ser Fedora Knight.

:cheers:

With his famous Doormat sigil on his shield

SWORD OF THE REDDIT

[TheMysteriousOne]

I have no love for Jorah, but i find it ironic/biased (i don't know what the right word is) that the two things Dany doesn't like that Jorah does, stare at her and kiss her without leave. Darrio does in Storm and Dance (first kiss) respectively.

......

Dany actually finds Daario sexually attractive, and actively wanted a sexual relationship with him.