Discussing the Children

[Cas Stark]

I fail to see, still, after the various defenses, why a character whose sole role in the story is to serve as the reason why the Martell family supports Aegon and not Dany, needed a POV. His dragon freeing was not that dramatic or important that he needed a POV for it, nor was his journey or anything about his personality or what was contained in his POV. It could have easily been shifted to Dany, Selmy and Arriane respectively. "Dragons were freed by Quentyn, etc. etc. " could have been done in a summary paragraph.

[Mr Fixit]

I fail to see, still, after the various defenses, why a character whose sole role in the story is to serve as the reason why the Martell family supports Aegon and not Dany, needed a POV.

Not to mention that Aegon is Doran's nephew! It's not like he needs any additional reason to prefer Aegon over Daenerys. And if that's not enough, Aegon is right here, conquering Stormlands, while Dany is still stuck thousands of miles away.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I fail to see, still, after the various defenses, why a character whose sole role in the story is to serve as the reason why the Martell family supports Aegon and not Dany, needed a POV. His dragon freeing was not that dramatic or important that he needed a POV for it, nor was his journey or anything about his personality or what was contained in his POV. It could have easily been shifted to Dany, Selmy and Arriane respectively. "Dragons were freed by Quentyn, etc. etc. " could have been done in a summary paragraph.

Absolutely. And it's not like Quentyn is a developed or interesting character, which is the very least you expect from a POV. Nope, his entire characterization could be summed up as "I don't want to come here, adventure sucks, but I gotta do it to impress my dad". Period, nothing new under the sun. It was just Martin trying to recreate the deconstruction of tropes he already used with Ned, Robb, and Oberyn. Not even the "idealistic and naive young hero finds out real life sucks" theme is new to Martin, as he explored that as far as aGoT with Arya, Sansa, Jon, and then later with Jaime and Brienne

My two cents on UnCat: she's less a character than an idea, both an embodiment of vengeance and an image or symbol in Brienne's quest. Brienne is the knight, UnCat and the members of the BwB are the monsters. In theory, UnCat works well because Cat finally has the power and the followers who listen to her, whereas before she was a kind of Cassandra character getting ignored by the likes of Renly, Stannis, Robb, etc. But then Martin decided to do a very peculiar thing: he deprived Cat of her voice, literally. And it doesn't work, because it turns her into more of a monster, with less humanity, and it still keeps her in the background.

I'm not saying she couldn't work in the show, because I think she would, under the right treatment, but I also see her as a problematic and divisive character in the fandom. So I'm torn. At least I'm glad we could get more Beric Dondarrion

[Cas Stark]

I don't even care about why Lady Stoneheart is in the book, what her plot or thematic purpose is, whether she is supposed to be an extension or a reprieve of Cat's tragedy and whether she gets killed shortly, which I think she will, or not. She was a slight respite from the ongoing destruction of House Stark, a little taste of revenge and justice, who kills Stark enemies with no fucking around about it, she has my full support, literary, thematic, TV, plot, all ways. She's a badass vengeance zombie killing bad people who harmed her good family. Good. LOL.

[Miodrag]

I fail to see, still, after the various defenses, why a character whose sole role in the story is to serve as the reason why the Martell family supports Aegon and not Dany, needed a POV. His dragon freeing was not that dramatic or important that he needed a POV for it, nor was his journey or anything about his personality or what was contained in his POV. It could have easily been shifted to Dany, Selmy and Arriane respectively. "Dragons were freed by Quentyn, etc. etc. " could have been done in a summary paragraph.

For the record, I can't guarantee what's going to be the significance of Quentyn's arc at the end, nor that there will be one at all. But, if his death does end up having some bigger impact, his arc will put us readers in a most desirable position: about his death we're going to know way more than anyone else. If Doran blames someone, it will most probably be Dany. And nobody but us readers will know that she's in no way responsible for his death. We even know that she didn't really laugh at him, when he introduced himself to her. I don't think that could've been achieved without Quentyn's chapters.

But even if his arc's importance stays as it is (boils down to dragon-steeling attempt), I still fail to see what is so wrong about it. I mean, it's four chapters in total. Yeah, ADWD could be edited down, but guess what, every single book with at least 300 pages can be edited down. I'm still to read a book of 300 pages or more that can't be trimmed down. When it comes to brevity, possibly the most efficient writer I've read is Coetzee, and he mostly writes novels of around 200 pages or less, and even his books can be edited down. But what would be the point of that eternal editing? Do Quentyn's four chapters really affect ADWD as a book so much? Wouldn't say so. Even if it was only for GRRM's writing pleasure, I can't hold it against him. I'm not used to judge books by how tightly written they are, but even if I was, Quentyn's arc would still not be a good enough reason to consider ADWD as a disappointment.

And also (this is not directed to you, Cas Stark, of course), I find it hilarious that some posters, who usually go ballistic when someone so much as suggests that parts of the show like the beetles scene are nothing but a waste of time, look so ready to criticize GRRM here for Quentyn's arc or for Lady Stoneheart.

[Cas Stark]

For the record, I can't guarantee what's going to be the significance of Quentyn's arc at the end, nor that there will be one at all. But, if his death does end up having some bigger impact, his arc will put us readers in a most desirable position: about his death we're going to know way more than anyone else. If Doran blames someone, it will most probably be Dany. And nobody but us readers will know that she's in no way responsible for his death. We even know that she didn't really laugh at him, when he introduced himself to her. I don't think that could've been achieved without Quentyn's chapters.

But even if his arc's importance stays as it is (boils down to dragon-steeling attempt), I still fail to see what is so wrong about it. I mean, it's four chapters in total. Yeah, ADWD could be edited down, but guess what, every single book with at least 300 pages can be edited down. I'm still to read a book of 300 pages or more that can't be trimmed down. When it comes to brevity, possibly the most efficient writer I've read is Coetzee, and he mostly writes novels of around 200 pages or less, and even his books can be edited down. But what would be the point of that eternal editing? Do Quentyn's four chapters really affect ADWD as a book so much? Wouldn't say so. Even if it was only for GRRM's writing pleasure, I can't hold it against him. I'm not used to judge books by how tightly written they are, but even if I was, Quentyn's arc would still not be a good enough reason to consider ADWD as a disappointment.

And also (this is not directed to you, Cas Stark, of course), I find it hilarious that some posters, who usually go ballistic when someone so much as suggests that parts of the show like the beetles scene are nothing but a waste of time, look so ready to criticize GRRM here for Quentyn's arc or for Lady Stoneheart.

Quentyn is emblematic of the problems throughout the last two books. He is just the most egregious example because he had a POV where he existed and then he died, so we know, for a fact, his story is over, and can I believe judge that he didn't need a POV to accomplish his purpose, it could have been done through the other existing POVs. But, to be sure, there are other suspect POVs in the last two books, and much filler in the POVs of main characters.

I have criticized the last two books harshly. I criticized season 3 of the show very harshly and this season fairly harshly.

[Miodrag]

ok, then she's a revenge machine. Either way the resurrection always bothered me because it undermined the impact of the Red Wedding and the idea of the finality of death in the conflict for the Iron Throne. I don't have anything against one character like Beric Dondarrion coming back to life but when Jon Snow, catelyn, possibly benjen as Coldhands, etc. all get resurrected it takes away the punch in the gut that I felt whilst reading about those characters dying and then death has no consequence potentially.

It's not just that she's just about revenge either, it's that all she does is kill nameless, tertiary characters that the viewers, if they decide to include her, won't know anything about and if you want to present us with the horror of what she's doing have her kill a young Frey child that was totally innocent of anything that was happening at the RW but that's not what we're getting, even in the books and I'm not sure the show would go in that direction either. In the end, what she does does not amlount to much so far and I'm going to ask a legitimate question now: what if when Jaime shows up he takes out Stoneheart and she's never heard from again? How would you feel about that part of the book then? Fact is, we don't know for sure whether or not she's just a nice bit of worldbuilding or whether she's going to be crucial to the overarching story and as long as we don't know, I'm fine with them leaving that bit out.

One more example of endlessly repeated claim that is completely baseless: "LS undermines the impact of the Red Wedding". Really?! RW is a somewhat lesser tragedy because Cat is brought back from the dead by the guy who was previously brought back from the dead and finally opted to stay dead because he found it better than the alternative? And yeah, some life she's brought back into! Honestly, how do you manage to pick nothing but "Good for Cat that she's resurrected" conclusion out of LS? How is it possible to read these books and fail to see GRRM's not just resurrecting people? Didn't he establish that any help one receives from Red God comes with a high price? Not to mention that Cat was a very devoted follower of The Seven in life, so even by that logic she can't be too happy for being brought back by the Red God.

[Ran]

Cas,

The problem for you is that it's not his sole role. So long as you're stuck that that's all there is to the character, simply plot movement from A to B, you'll be grasping at straws.

I mean, what is Theon's role in ACoK? Taking Winterfell, right? Why did we need a POV for that? We could have had Bran show us the whole lot that mattered. And genuinely, I recall after ACoK that there were people who were annoyed with how much time Theon and the ironborn got, who felt it distracted from getting more action in the south ("Hey, if he didn't write Theon, George might have given us Robb's POV instead and show us the battles he mentioned there!" -- honest truth, that's the sort of thing some said back in the day).

Unlike all the characters cited above, Quentyn Martell is something of an everyman, and that makes him part of a very select group of characters in the novels, and makes his narrative quite different in both intent and effect; though, speaking of Theon, Quentyn's story is closer to Theon's than anyone else's, but he's very different from Theon in a number of ways. I'd also say he's much closer to a Catelyn or Davos in terms of his character, and yet he presents a narrative that isn't at all like theirs, as well, and so explores relevant issues in a different way.

Plus provides insights into the setting and the Essos storyline, which is fairly important given the focus it receives. Plus gives us a very different depiction of a Dornishman than what we'd seen heretofore. Plus generates an awareness that he might show up in Daenerys's story in time to convince her to marry him, leading readers to start foreseeing a plot that doesn't happen when something different crops up. Plus gives us one of the strongest chapters in the series.

The four chapters more than justify their existence, once understood as being about more than just plot points.

[Mr Fixit]

Quentyn is emblematic of the problems throughout the last two books. He is just the most egregious example

I have to concur with this sentiment, and I'm someone who still enjoyed the last two books quite a bit. Almost every PoV is problematic in Feast and Dance. A bunch should've been cut completely and their material reassigned to existing PoVs if/when applicable: Victarion (at least in AFfC), Aeron, Areo, Arys, Quentyn, maybe JonCon. I feel Connington is tacked on at the end of the book and would work better at the beginning of TWoW, maybe as a prologue PoV.

The other PoV chapters could stand to be trimmed down a bit, especially Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Brienne, Sam, maybe Cersei as well. Jaime's ADwD chapter is also pretty superfluous (though well written) and serves only to link him to Brienne, something that should have been done at the end of Feast.

[Miodrag]

Quentyn is emblematic of the problems throughout the last two books. He is just the most egregious example because he had a POV where he existed and then he died, so we know, for a fact, his story is over, and can I believe judge that he didn't need a POV to accomplish his purpose, it could have been done through the other existing POVs. But, to be sure, there are other suspect POVs in the last two books, and much filler in the POVs of main characters.

I have criticized the last two books harshly. I criticized season 3 of the show very harshly and this season fairly harshly.

We often agree about the show, at least about the last two seasons (I thoroughly disliked even the second season, which I still find the weakest so far, and opposite to majority I think the first seasons was decent, but nothing special, and certainly not without major problems that only increased later on). But we firmly disagree about AFFC and ADWD. When the series is finished, I'm pretty sure a lot of what people now see as fillers will be important, possibly even crucial for the story. And, surely, I see a lot less "fat" than you do to begin with. Especially in ADWD. Admittedly, AFFC is pretty atmospheric, but that is kinda one of the points of that book: you can't convey all that destruction without being atmospheric, and you can't be atmospheric if you aren't extensively descriptive.

[Cas Stark]

I just don't see it guys. But, I'll try to keep an open mind on the next reread.

I started a reread of GOT and, I hate to say it, but I was struck by how elegant and dense the writing was, how much information was conveyed in only the first 50 pages, how much groundwork for the entire story he laid in those first few chapters. This is the GRRM that captivated me. This is the guy I want back for the end of the series.

[tyrell19]

Like I have said I really enjoy Quentyn as a character but I believe Martin did over complicate things with the Windblown chapter when he introduced the number of companies the Yunkish have hired. It took me three reads to be my head round who is who with them and onlyafter my second read through did I enjoy the skirmish with Astapor when I got my head round all the Cleon's.

[Miodrag]

I just don't see it guys. But, I'll try to keep an open mind on the next reread.

I started a reread of GOT and, I hate to say it, but I was struck by how elegant and dense the writing was, how much information was conveyed in only the first 50 pages, how much groundwork for the entire story he laid in those first few chapters. This is the GRRM that captivated me. This is the guy I want back for the end of the series.

I always thought AGOT is something special. It's more a prologue than the first part of the first act. (ACOK + ASOS is the first act, AFFC + ADWD turned out to be the second act, and TWOW + ADOS will probably be the third act.) Therefore, it's only natural the biggest amount of info is delivered in AGOT. And it is very dense, but I don't think it was realistic to expect that density to continue through the rest of the series. Nor would it be good. In fact, ACOK and ASOS are written differently than AGOT was. Just explaining why I like GRRM's prose in all of the books, even though there are clear differences among them.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Plus provides insights into the setting and the Essos storyline, which is fairly important given the focus it receives.

Because the POVs of Dany, Tyrion, Barristan, Victarion, Arya, and Jon Connington don't provide enough insight already? Did we really need yet another travelogue, even one who is showing us places and themes we already seen before?

Plus gives us a very different depiction of a Dornishman than what we'd seen heretofore.

And which is that, the one of a person who's way over his head, finding out the game of thrones is no easy game? Isn't that Arianne, or Drey or Garin? Or is that a depiction of a Dornishman who's not a sexual beast but rather an average-looking fellow? You know, like Doran?

Plus generates an awareness that he might show up in Daenerys's story in time to convince her to marry him, leading readers to start foreseeing a plot that doesn't happen when something different crops up.

Like Victarion or Aegon, perhaps? The same result could have been achieved without his POV. In fact, it would have added to the intrigue

Plus gives us one of the strongest chapters in the series.

That's really arguable

The four chapters more than justify their existence, once understood as being about more than just plot points.

I don't see why anything you said needed Quentyn's POV specifically, especially when Martin has developed more layered and complex characters like Stannis, Jorah, Sandor, Tywin, or Robb (just to mention a few) without the aid of a POV

[boojam]

I have to concur with this sentiment, and I'm someone who still enjoyed the last two books quite a bit. Almost every PoV is problematic in Feast and Dance. A bunch should've been cut completely and their material reassigned to existing PoVs if/when applicable: Victarion (at least in AFfC), Aeron, Areo, Arys, Quentyn, maybe JonCon. I feel Connington is tacked on at the end of the book and would work better at the beginning of TWoW, maybe as a prologue PoV.

The other PoV chapters could stand to be trimmed down a bit, especially Daenerys, Jon, Tyrion, Brienne, Sam, maybe Cersei as well. Jaime's ADwD chapter is also pretty superfluous (though well written) and serves only to link him to Brienne, something that should have been done at the end of Feast.

What works on the page, even with George rambling (and I find his ramblings entraining) I just don't see translating to somewhat squashed 10 episode format that is a visual dramatic narrative.

Tho I could see thee Greyjoy's loony 'PIRATES OF THE PYKE' re-giggered into something very amusing , especially KingsMoot. Victarion's loopy sea travelogue could be entertaining.

Across Feast and Dance I found Arya's strange adventures in Braavos and the Greyjoys bizarre stories the most entertaining.

After that Tryion's traveloge and the goofy events at the Wall , parts of Davos story, but they will have to be reworked.

Brienne's story was just a loop , need to fix that.

Sam's story needs cutting.

There are interesting pieces in Dany's story when you trim away the 'wind'. (Actually the only real 'show stopper' left occurs in her story.)

I could care less about events at KL.

I was never interested in Bran's story, I don't like the concept.

O , and they do seem to want to do something with Dorne which I found thin in the books.

Lots of bits an pieces in Feast and Dragon that could be cobbled together to make something interesting, but it's going to take some imaginative invention.

[Crixus]

I have to echo Miodrag. I've been a huge show fan, but the books were always the source, like you lot. For me it started in S2 with the Starks, specifically Cat and Robb. I won't harp on about it, as many others have already done so and well. But that was the beginning of removing the depth and the layers that make this story so compelling. Removing the knowledge of Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' made Cat look weak and foolish without the actual cause being conveyed: she had lost ALL her children. Then, Robb and Talisa... again, no point dredging that history up, but for me the Stark story lost resonance and gravitas there. And it didn't recover. They could've played out a sweet, hesitant and innocent sort of romance between Robb and Jeyne, if they wanted to focus more on Robb himself. But that storyline made him look like a spoilt, entitled brat.

Again, this is my view but the treatment of the Starks, especially Cat and Robb, is symptomatic of the bigger issue (removing layers, removing detail and depth in favour of shallowness, one-trait characters and wtf moments). I completely recognize the dynamics of the medium, and I have really enjoyed some changes over seasons. I didn't mind Crasters stuff this year, for instance, because I saw that Bran needed stuff to do.

But what I referenced earlier (Cat and Robb) isn't down to budgets or POVs or blah; it's down to perceptions and preference. I agree with those who say D&D have clear favourites: Tyrion and the Lannisters, and Arya. And that influences the show. Sansa has been short-changed, and so have other characters. I'm not surprised at all by the LS exclusion, because D&D have picked certain elements of a huge, sprawling story and decided to tell that story. Which is fine; it's an adaptation. But that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed.

I'm also worried about watching book spoilers next season. The sense of wonder and awe and shock I have experienced from the books won't be matched by similar flat reveals in the show.

And please, spare me the 'dont like dont watch' shit. I'm merely voicing my opinion.

[The hairy bear]

I don't think that Quentyn's four chapters are a good representation of the problems of Feast and Dance. I would say that Brienne's 8 chapters, Jon's 12 or Tyrion's 13 are better examples. Their stories could and should have been told in less chapters. While the first books had very significant events happening ofscreen, being summarized in a couple of paragraphs, or taking place between chapters (the battles at Riverrun, the battle against the Lamb Men, the Whispering Woods, Oxcross, etc.), the last books use much more chapters to explain similar stories.

But the main problem, as I see it, is the lack of planing. George has talked many times about how he prefers the gardener approach than the architect's. But the parts of the book that he had planned beforehand (the last part of ACOK, and ASOS) are fan favorites and the parts that he has "gardened" have grown out of control.

[Frey Pies]

I have to echo Miodrag. I've been a huge show fan, but the books were always the source, like you lot. For me it started in S2 with the Starks, specifically Cat and Robb. I won't harp on about it, as many others have already done so and well. But that was the beginning of removing the depth and the layers that make this story so compelling. Removing the knowledge of Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' made Cat look weak and foolish without the actual cause being conveyed: she had lost ALL her children. Then, Robb and Talisa... again, no point dredging that history up, but for me the Stark story lost resonance and gravitas there. And it didn't recover. They could've played out a sweet, hesitant and innocent sort of romance between Robb and Jeyne, if they wanted to focus more on Robb himself. But that storyline made him look like a spoilt, entitled brat.

Again, this is my view but the treatment of the Starks, especially Cat and Robb, is symptomatic of the bigger issue (removing layers, removing detail and depth in favour of shallowness, one-trait characters and wtf moments). I completely recognize the dynamics of the medium, and I have really enjoyed some changes over seasons. I didn't mind Crasters stuff this year, for instance, because I saw that Bran needed stuff to do.

But what I referenced earlier (Cat and Robb) isn't down to budgets or POVs or blah; it's down to perceptions and preference. I agree with those who say D&D have clear favourites: Tyrion and the Lannisters, and Arya. And that influences the show. Sansa has been short-changed, and so have other characters. I'm not surprised at all by the LS exclusion, because D&D have picked certain elements of a huge, sprawling story and decided to tell that story. Which is fine; it's an adaptation. But that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed.

I'm also worried about watching book spoilers next season. The sense of wonder and awe and shock I have experienced from the books won't be matched by similar flat reveals in the show.

And please, spare me the 'dont like dont watch' shit. I'm merely voicing my opinion.

I think Sansa's arc was only second to King's Landing this year. But yes, I do wish that Stannis, Catelyn and Barristan had a little more screentime.

[Beric175]

Lets just accept that the show will not impact the way the books will be written and that the showrunners know the ending and hence can make a more informed decision on what has to stay in the show for it to get all done in 7 seasons than we do because we have not read books 6 and 7 and so we're just hoping that LSH actually amounts to something. maybe it does, maybe it doesn't but fact is they know where the main characters end up and we don't and if they have to take shortcuts to get there by leaving out things like the siege of Riverrun and LSH then I can't blame them because they're not making a 1:1 adaptation and I'm really surprised that people are still expecting them to do that at this stage, when they have told us repeatedly that they'll diverge more and more as the show goes on. I find LSH to be a stupid plot device in the book that only comes into play at the end of a boring and needlessly long travellogue brought to us by Brienne of Tarth and so I don't mind if they cut that whole thing short to its bare minimum or even leave it out entirely. What will probably end up happening is that Beric will fill LSH's shoes because he feels guilty for not helping Arya and so they'll probably try to avenge the Starks by hanging all the Freys. There, problem solved. It's like Jojen taking over Coldhands' role in Bran's story. Some of this stuff can be given to characters that are still alive and hence there's no need to get a great actress like Michelle Fairley back to essentially give her a thankless role playing a silent revenant.

The show has not fared as well with the magical elements and I'd rather they stuck to what they're good at than failing at trying to do something they clearly don't seem to want to put a lot of focus on.

[Crixus]

I think Sansa's arc was only second to King's Landing this year. But yes, I do wish that Stannis, Catelyn and Barristan had a little more screentime.

Yes, it was far better this season than last. Somehow the entire marriage to Tyrion in S3 was shown almost entirely from his POV, not hers; even this season's opener, the scene between them regarding Robb and Cat's deaths was about how generous and cool Tyrion was, rather than focusing on her grief more.

That said, I really like Sophie Turner, I think she does marvelously well with the material she's given. I'm not too fussed about her reveal to the Lords of the Vale either, although it does make me wonder whether that's a plot point that will be resolved very soon in-book (perhaps her next chapter?)

I think my personal issues aren't so much with changes per se, than stuff that I feel diminishes the richness and complexity of the story and characters. Sometimes the two are linked or even the same, I reckon. I realize also that this is subjective.