R+L=J v.89

[corbon]

We could get a clearer picture very soon... oh, Joy! ;)

Thats a lot too big and in too good a condition for my liking to be ToJ.

Its supposed to be an abandoned watch tower in a remote pass. And Ned pulled it down, with probably just himself and some horses.

I tend to think more like this, this or this. A bit smaller, a bit more run down. With regional variations maybe like this (germanic), this (Indian) or this (arab).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Across a blood-streaked sky...

Great picture!

Are any locals hanging around here?

Could you please stop Sean Bean from tearing that tower down?

[mambru]

Strictly speaking, Tywin is "the hand of the king." He speaks with the king's voice and rules when the king is indisposed. He signed off on the rescue mission ultimately and there is no indication that he wasn't acting in the best interest of Aerys throughout this situation. It is only natural that he would have needed to sign off on this. This does not represent a legitimate stumbling block to "obey vs protect."

So Obey overrules Go Protect the King Right This Minute when it's the Hand of the King ordering it, even though the Hand of the King is not the King. But you object to the idea that the orders of "a dead crown prince" must be Obeyed...

If Jon is a bastard, the dynasty is at Dragonstone. A mistress and a bastard are at the ToJ. Logic says that they can't follow a dead crown prince's order at the cost of protecting the king.

...even though the Voice of God seems to have a different opinion...

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else.""

...which seems to lend at least a little credibility to the idea that the ToJ 3 died obeying Rhaegar's last orders, not guarding a new king.

So GRRM seems to say that the KG is "bound to obey" the orders of Crown Prince Rhaegar, and you yourself say that the KG at Duskendale had to obey the Hand of the King - even if that means leaving the King alone in a dungeon with his life threatened (that is, postponing Protecting the King, which is the First Duty).

But when Lyanna, the supposed Mother of the King, would want the KG to let her talk to her brother and ask for his help and NOT kill him, you suddenly decide that the Duty to Protect overrides the Duty to Obey in this particular case. The KG will challenge Ned to a last fight to the death without trying to avoid bloodshed and the death of Lyanna's brother by making the least effort to negotiate, and you say that the Duty to Protect overrides any Duty to Obey - at least to Obey Lyanna.

In GRRM's view, the KG cannot Disobey Rhaegar's orders out of hand even if he's only a Crown Prince. In your own view, the KG are obliged to obey Tywin even when the King Himself is rotting in an enemy cell. With these facts in mind, why do you absolve the KG of any duty to Obey Lyanna by at least trying to come to some agreement that might spare Ned? Why are they allowed to ignore her wishes when they are supposed to obey both the Hand of the King and the Crown Prince? Seems inconsistent.

The only pattern I'm sensing is your willful denial of common sense. I can't find specific textual references for everything, but I'll work on it.

I shall wait with interest...though I suspect I may be waiting a long time.

[Ygrain]

Thats a lot too big and in too good a condition for my liking to be ToJ.

Its supposed to be an abandoned watch tower in a remote pass. And Ned pulled it down, with probably just himself and some horses.

I tend to think more like this, this or this. A bit smaller, a bit more run down. With regional variations maybe like this (germanic), this (Indian) or this (arab).

Skyrim rules!

- You're right, of course, but given the show's tendency towards spectacular, I think that they would want ToJ pretty :P

[honeyed chicken]

We could get a clearer picture very soon... oh, Joy! ;)

That is so like my mental image of the toj, it's scary.

[honeyed chicken]

Thats a lot too big and in too good a condition for my liking to be ToJ.

Its supposed to be an abandoned watch tower in a remote pass. And Ned pulled it down, with probably just himself and some horses.

I tend to think more like this, this or this. A bit smaller, a bit more run down. With regional variations maybe like this (germanic), this (Indian) or this (arab).

Unless I'm much mistaken, that second one is fromthe south rim of the Grand Canyon. It's a museum/shop and I've been there. Forget what it's called. I'm going to go google it.

Yeah, it's this and bigger than you might think. http://scienceviews.com/parks/watchtower.html

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

We could get a clearer picture very soon... oh, Joy! ;)

Wow! :wideeyed:

I can't think of any other tower of significance in an S5 storyline. Can anyone else?

(edit-- of course I'm ruling out the tower at Sunspear since, as you note, they have a filming location for Dorne already and this would not blend with it)

While I think the Desert View (linked by corbon and honeyed chicken) fits my head canon better, I agree with Ygrain-- Scrabo fits the show's tendency towards the spectacular, and we shouldn't forget that (as your second picture shows) they can do a lot with background and perspective in their format. Since ToJ is most likely only going to be seen in brief flashbacks, it makes sense that they'd choose a location near where they're already filming and use effects if necessary to modify the appearance and setting.

[The guy from the Vale]

Moat Cailin perhaps? Or the Reader's tower...

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Moat Cailin perhaps? Or the Reader's tower...

Hmm...

Unless I'm mistaken we've already seen Moat Cailin in S4

I'd consider the Reader's Tower if only it appeared D&D were doing any justice at all to the Ironborn storyline.

[Alia of the knife]

Loving Scrabo, and I suspect that its the running for TOJ, but in my head, the Grand Canyon tower, (and I too was just recently there), with the terrain, is more what I imagined it to look like.

[Consigliere]

Hmm...

Unless I'm mistaken we've already seen Moat Cailin in S4

I'd consider the Reader's Tower if only it appeared D&D were doing any justice at all to the Ironborn storyline.

We have.

I agree with you wrt the IB storyline. I doubt that is the Reader's tower. It must be the ToJ.

[BearQueen87]

We could get a clearer picture very soon... oh, Joy! ;)

OH BOY!

[UnmaskedLurker]

We have.

I agree with you wrt the IB storyline. I doubt that is the Reader's tower. It must be the ToJ.

Assuming they are filming ToJ scene, I have some questions. First, given that Ned is dead and this clearly would be a "flashback" who is telling the story of ToJ? The only survivor still alive (other than Jon) is Howland, who has not been introduced on the show, but perhaps could be? There are no weirwoods there, are there? Even if it is ToJ scene, if it is played out exactly like Ned's dream, then nothing new will be revealed that was not revealed in the original GoT book, right? So while seeing the scene played out on screen might be cool, what is the real significance?

[Alia of the knife]

Unless I'm much mistaken, that second one is fromthe south rim of the Grand Canyon. It's a museum/shop and I've been there. Forget what it's called. I'm going to go google it.

Yeah, it's this and bigger than you might think. http://scienceviews.com/parks/watchtower.html

And here it is as it appears in Deviantart:

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs15/f/2007/078/7/0/The_WatchTower_at_Grand_Canyon_by_limnersphere.jpg

[BearQueen87]

Assuming they are filming ToJ scene, I have some questions. First, given that Ned is dead and this clearly would be a "flashback" who is telling the story of ToJ? The only survivor still alive (other than Jon) is Howland, who has not been introduced on the show, but perhaps could be? There are no weirwoods there, are there? Even if it is ToJ scene, if it is played out exactly like Ned's dream, then nothing new will be revealed that was not revealed in the original GoT book, right? So while seeing the scene played out on screen might be cool, what is the real significance?

Bran having a vision is my guess, though I didn't think there were any weirdwoods either.

Maybe BR is really just telling Bran the story and it flashes back to the ToJ on screen

[stateofdissipation]

So Obey overrules Go Protect the King Right This Minute when it's the Hand of the King ordering it, even though the Hand of the King is not the King. But you object to the idea that the orders of "a dead crown prince" must be Obeyed...

...even though the Voice of God seems to have a different opinion...

...which seems to lend at least a little credibility to the idea that the ToJ 3 died obeying Rhaegar's last orders, not guarding a new king.

So GRRM seems to say that the KG is "bound to obey" the orders of Crown Prince Rhaegar, and you yourself say that the KG at Duskendale had to obey the Hand of the King - even if that means leaving the King alone in a dungeon with his life threatened (that is, postponing Protecting the King, which is the First Duty).

But when Lyanna, the supposed Mother of the King, would want the KG to let her talk to her brother and ask for his help and NOT kill him, you suddenly decide that the Duty to Protect overrides the Duty to Obey in this particular case. The KG will challenge Ned to a last fight to the death without trying to avoid bloodshed and the death of Lyanna's brother by making the least effort to negotiate, and you say that the Duty to Protect overrides any Duty to Obey - at least to Obey Lyanna.

In GRRM's view, the KG cannot Disobey Rhaegar's orders out of hand even if he's only a Crown Prince. In your own view, the KG are obliged to obey Tywin even when the King Himself is rotting in an enemy cell. With these facts in mind, why do you absolve the KG of any duty to Obey Lyanna by at least trying to come to some agreement that might spare Ned? Why are they allowed to ignore her wishes when they are supposed to obey both the Hand of the King and the Crown Prince? Seems inconsistent.

I shall wait with interest...though I suspect I may be waiting a long time.

So Obey overrules Go Protect the King Right This Minute

• The Kingsguard are sworn to obey the king, but the first duty laid on them is to protect him (III: 757)
• The vows of the Kingsguard require them to protect the king's secrets as they would his life (III: 815)

ssm http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

There is not a comptetition between vows: they are mutually supporting not mutually exclusive.

• Prince Lewyn of Dorne was an uncle of Doran Martell and died fighting on the Trident (SSM: 1)
• Ser Jonothor Darry, brother to Ser Willem Darry, was the second member of the Kingsguard to die at the Trident (SSM:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

These kingsguard died protecting the king by obeying his orders and fighting the rebellion while he remained in King's Landing.

Go Protect the King Right This Minute

Is a fanfiction

Aerys went to Duskendale with only oneKingsguard knight and a small force of men, to arrest and execute Lord Denys. Instead he was imprisoned.[2] During the capture, Ser Symon Hollard slew Ser Gwayne Gaunt of the Kingsguard. Lord Denys continued his defiance, even as a large host sat outside his walls, commanded by Tywin Lannister. Tywin's ability to act had been paralyzed when Lord Denys sent word that at the first sign that Tywin intended to storm the town, Lord Denys would kill the King.

The Defiance ended when Ser Barristan Selmy sneaked into the Dun Fort, the seat of House Darklyn, and rescued his King. Lord Denys,

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Defiance_of_Duskendale

During the Defiance of Duskendale, Lord Hand Tywin Lannister sent Selmy to rescue the captive King Aerys II. Ser Barristan slew Ser Symon Hollard, avenging the death of his sworn brother SerGwayne Gaunt and freeing the king.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Barristan_Selmy

when it's the Hand of the King ordering it, even though the Hand of the King is not the King.

Exaxtly. This example debunks the kingsguard must be with the king right this minute. Practical concerns take precedence.

But you object to the idea that the orders of "a dead crown prince" must be Obeyed...

Yes they object to:

• Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent were ordered by Rhaegar to stand guard at the 'tower of joy' near Dorne. All three died there (I: 354-356)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1.3.2./

...even though the Voice of God seems to have a different opinion...

...which seems to lend at least a little credibility to the idea that the ToJ 3 died obeying Rhaegar's last orders, not guarding a new king.

Exactly...(it is best add the invented information)

So GRRM seems to say that the (said) KG is "bound to obey" obeyed the orders of Crown Prince Rhaegar,

provable and cited

and you yourself say that the KG at Duskendale had to obey the Hand of the King - even if that means leaving the King alone in a dungeon with his life threatened

provabale and cited

(that is, postponing Protecting the King, which is the First Duty).

the invention has already been discredited.

But when Lyanna, the supposed Mother of the King, would want the KG to let her talk to her brother and ask for his help and NOT kill him, you suddenly decide that the Duty to Protect overrides the Duty to Obey in this particular case. The KG will challenge Ned to a last fight to the death without trying to avoid bloodshed and the death of Lyanna's brother by making the least effort to negotiate, and you say that the Duty to Protect overrides any Duty to Obey - at least to Obey Lyanna.

we accept the invention the argument is still not internally consistent. Correct.

In GRRM's view, the (statement the) KG (at the ToJ) cannot Disobey (obeyed) Rhaegar's orders out of hand even if he's only a Crown Prince.

proven and cited

In our own view, the KG are obliged to obey(ed) Tywin even when the King Himself is rotting in an enemy cell.

proven and cited

With these facts in mind, why do you absolve the KG of any duty to Obey Lyanna by at least trying to come to some agreement that might spare Ned? Why are they allowed to ignore her wishes when they are supposed to obey both the Hand of the King and the Crown Prince? Seems inconsistent.

Yes the argument is not internally consistent.

I shall wait with interest...though I suspect I may be waiting a long time.

Or not.

[Alia of the knife]

Assuming they are filming ToJ scene, I have some questions. First, given that Ned is dead and this clearly would be a "flashback" who is telling the story of ToJ? The only survivor still alive (other than Jon) is Howland, who has not been introduced on the show, but perhaps could be? There are no weirwoods there, are there? Even if it is ToJ scene, if it is played out exactly like Ned's dream, then nothing new will be revealed that was not revealed in the original GoT book, right? So while seeing the scene played out on screen might be cool, what is the real significance?

Well, we now have Bran of the "weirnet," who may not only see visions, but what really happened separate and apart from being attached to a dream.

[Consigliere]

Assuming they are filming ToJ scene, I have some questions. First, given that Ned is dead and this clearly would be a "flashback" who is telling the story of ToJ? The only survivor still alive (other than Jon) is Howland, who has not been introduced on the show, but perhaps could be? There are no weirwoods there, are there? Even if it is ToJ scene, if it is played out exactly like Ned's dream, then nothing new will be revealed that was not revealed in the original GoT book, right? So while seeing the scene played out on screen might be cool, what is the real significance?

The significance will be for the people who only watch the show. While a few hints about R+L=J have been dropped into the show, judging by the "OMG MINDBLOWN" response on social media to Sean Bean's interview, the showrunners might want to spell things out a bit more explicitly. The "no Weirwoods" argument is not a deal breaker. I think the scene could play out via a Bran vision.

[Attitude]

Assuming they are filming ToJ scene, I have some questions. First, given that Ned is dead and this clearly would be a "flashback" who is telling the story of ToJ? The only survivor still alive (other than Jon) is Howland, who has not been introduced on the show, but perhaps could be? There are no weirwoods there, are there? Even if it is ToJ scene, if it is played out exactly like Ned's dream, then nothing new will be revealed that was not revealed in the original GoT book, right? So while seeing the scene played out on screen might be cool, what is the real significance?

What if it's bran using his greenseer powers to look in the past. When he is looking, he sees his father and his aunt talking. He hears her telling Ned that her kid is from Rhaegar and asks Ned to promise not to tell anyone, because she is afraid of Robert killing her son. It would be a scene of 2 minutes and everything would be clear.

[Chebyshov]

The significance will be for the people who only watch the show. While a few hints about R+L=J have been dropped into the show, judging by the "OMG MINDBLOWN" response on social media to Sean Bean's interview, the showrunners might want to spell things out a bit more explicitly. The "no Weirwoods" argument is not a deal breaker. I think the scene could play out via a Bran vision.

That's what I'd guess too...I doubt they'll constrain themselves to weirwoods on the show. I'm thinking next season may have more obvious hints (such as the ToJ dream-sequence, though maybe a bit more detailed), and then the bomb will be dropped sometime in the last 2 seasons.