Tywin was not that bad of a father to Tyrion.

[kimim]

That, at least, appears to have been somewhat out of usual character, horrible as it was. Though that he was willing to do it says a lot even if he was usually a decent father. My guess would be that's the pattern for most of the lordly fathers; willing to do extreme, hurtful things if it seems necessary, but not always.

By this logic, Tywin should have punished Tyrion for Tysha - by, oh, forcing the annulment and sending Tysha away, punishing Tyrion with, idk, being forbidden to leave his chambers for a while, probably corporal punishment such as Yoren did to Arya. Which I'm not advocating, but in Westeros would be reasonable. Not gang rape of Tysha while Tyrion watches, followed by forcing him to rape her as well.

But seriously, first people defend Randyll Tarly's parenting, now Tywin's. What's next? Gregor was totally justified in shoving Sandor's face into the fireplace for stealing his toy?

But Gregor was a great older brother!

He didn't kill Sandor at birth, and pushing his face into the fire looks bad, but it made Sandor into a tough guy, so it was the best thing he could have done. He allowed Sandor to live on after that, which means he was a great big bro! He helped his house gain under the Lannisters, so Sandor got to enjoy Lannister patronage.

Ditto for Tywin. He was the best father possible for Tyrion. That thing with Tysha was no biggie. He gave Tyrion an education! He gave him money! Tywin was a lovely father.

Edit: I am being sarcastic.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Her death contributed to that factor quite heavily I imagine...

Sure but why she isn't allowed to propose a marriage to Sansa? After all she could had decline the offer.

[Woman of War]

Considering that killing a child at birth is worse than sexually abusing him Tywin was not that bad.....

And being condemned to death by your own father can happen to all of us.

Actually there is a historic parallele to Tyrion's fate:

Friedrich II of Prussia barely escaped execution by his own father Friedrich Wilhelm I. But he was forced by Daddy, at a very young age, to watch the execution of his dear friend and lover Katte. Then he was imprisoned for years. Oh, and as young boy the small, sensitive, highly musical and talented child had been tortured by his father in order to turn him into a true soldier.

The man never was able to have satisfying personal relationships later in life, even not when he was king himself.

[MoseStark*]

To paraphrase Bronn, "If the choice was between fighting the mountain and fucking Lollys, you'd have your cock out of your breeches in an instant."

Unfortunately in Westeros, women get raped, sometimes even gang raped. And while this causes horrible mental damage that they'll never fully recover from, they are still alive, they can still have children of their own and can still lead happy lives. It would not cause the level of post traumatic stress that Theon's treatment would usually provoke.

Thus, I'd argue that having to kill innocent people during war (as most lords and kings do, including Tywin and other more "virtuous" characters like Robb) is far worse.

I don't think Tysha could live a happily ever after with children after being gang raped by who knows how many men. Mostly such a gang rape causes not only psychological but also physical damage to women. Also, the psychological damage this gang raped would have cost Tysha, shall have prevented her from marrying and having sex ever again. Woman who are raped have huge trust issues especially in the sexual field. So saying that the damage Ramsey has done to Theon is much worse than what the Lannister soldiers have done to Tysha is rubbish. Yes, she is still alive, but has a huge trauma and will never live a happily ever after. You could say the same for Theon, though, he is still alive and even though he can't get children anymore, he is able to live happily ever after.

And yes, Tywin was a horrible father to Tyrion. He could have been worse, but saying he was a quite good father is just bullshit as many posters have pointed out before...

[Winterfell is Burning]

You know, Craster wasn't that bad of a father. I mean, he did give his daughters food and shelter instead of sending them to survive on their own or marry them to strangers.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Tywin like Randyll Tarly, Roose and more is part of the Great Westeros Dads club.

You know, Craster wasn't that bad of a father. I mean, he did give his daughters food and shelter instead of sending them to survive on their own or marry them to strangers.

Almost as good as Roose who provided his bastard son his Reek. His most valiant servant.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lysa. The woman who was willing to throw her through the moon door?

No.

She wanted Sansa to marry Robert because she realised it was 1) a good way to marry Robert off. 2) Give her son more control/gove Petyr more control. 3) She was, by this point, undoubtedly, bat-shit crazy.

I don't think there was any willing negotiation on Lysas part.

4. Because Robin would had the North.

Again if she hadn't the chance to negotiate about her future why she should had cared if others had? Why she should had helped someone without any gain? The answer because she was family is the wrong. Her family was only her son and no one else.

[SeanF]

Considering that killing a child at birth is worse than sexually abusing him Tywin was not that bad.....

And being condemned to death by your own father can happen to all of us.

Actually there is a historic parallele to Tyrion's fate:

Friedrich II of Prussia barely escaped execution by his own father Friedrich Wilhelm I. But he was forced by Daddy, at a very young age, to watch the execution of his dear friend and lover Katte. Then he was imprisoned for years. Oh, and as young boy the small, sensitive, highly musical and talented child had been tortured by his father in order to turn him into a true soldier.

The man never was able to have satisfying personal relationships later in life, even not when he was king himself.

Frederick the Great's upbringing certainly sucked.

[Blackfish Tully]

I agree with the general idea of this thread, but only if the point is NOT to argue that Tywin was a stand-up guy (he isn't), but rather to point out that Tyrion does not get a free pass for all of his own bad behavior, because of some supposedly abused and neglected childhood.

Tyrion was not abused and neglected. If anything, he was spoiled. He had the best food, the best clothes, nurses to nurse and mother him, maesters to educate him, septons to teach him religion, and the wherewithal to buy and read any books his father's money could afford. Perhaps his father could not be bothered to give him this guidance personally, but that does not mean he lacked for support.

There was no crossbow to his head when he betrayed his own wife, and participated in her gang-rape. That is a fan fantasy. Father and Son both are guilty of that crime.

Tyrion thought she was a prostitute hired by his brother , that's what Jaimie told him and he trusted him 100%. So in Tyrion mind he was not betraying his wife since he did not believe she was his wife,

Tywin and Jaimie lied to him and Tywin had an innocent girl ,who actually loved and trusted Tyrion as far as we know , gang raped and tossed aside.

There were other ways for Tywin to handle the situation . he could have had Jaimie lie to Tyrion as before but then give the girl some gold and send her off to the Free Cities but because he is a horrible father he choose the route he did .

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Tywin the Lord can be appreciated but not Tywin the Father.

[King Tyrion I]

Considering that killing a child at birth is worse than sexually abusing him Tywin was not that bad.....

And being condemned to death by your own father can happen to all of us.

Actually there is a historic parallele to Tyrion's fate:

Friedrich II of Prussia barely escaped execution by his own father Friedrich Wilhelm I. But he was forced by Daddy, at a very young age, to watch the execution of his dear friend and lover Katte. Then he was imprisoned for years. Oh, and as young boy the small, sensitive, highly musical and talented child had been tortured by his father in order to turn him into a true soldier.

The man never was able to have satisfying personal relationships later in life, even not when he was king himself.

:agree: Thank you for pointing this out. I also thought about this.

Again, my thanks.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

sorry if my dad made his banner men rape my wife and told me that he won't give me my inheritance just because he doesn't like me. He is pretty much a shit father in my book.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Xenoharmonic: Great thread! Also enjoyed your Was Jon Snow raped by Ygritte thread. Keep up the good work. :cheers:

This

[Tynned Lannistark]

I don't see any way how Tywin can be considered even a reasonably good father. Not to Tyrion and not to his other children. He would pull a Tysha on Jamie just as easily.

The only thing Tywin cares about is his family legacy. Not his family.

He may have loved his wife (as some characters indicate) but he does not view his children as anything but tools to achieve his goals.

His behavior towards them is not that of a worried father trying to educate his children and make sure they don't go the wrong path and hurt themselves. He abuses them into working for his greater plan without ever actually carrying for them.

His behaviour to Tyrion is appalling, but he would do just the same for Jamie and Cersei if they disappointed him enough.

There are several threads of readers who think Tywin may have actually poisoned his own grandson. There is no one who would suspect Ned or any of the more reasonable characters of doing something like that.

The on thing that can and should be said about Tywin in that context is that he doesn't run from responsibilities. Another man with his lack of empathy would have killed Tyrion after birth, as his existence hurts family reputation. A more compassionate person may have sent him for adoption instead hiding the fact he was a Lannister.

Tywin doesn't. He accepts the fact that Tyrion is a Lannister and as such he needs to make sure he is properly fed, dressed and educated. To handle the frustration of having such a son he abuses him a bit.

But not running from responsibility doesn't make you a good father.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because being a hypocrite is a good thing right?

Sansa needed her help and she had to give something back. I don't see the hypocrisy.

[Erkan12]

:ack:

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lysa appologysm focuses on how she was forced to marry an old man against her will, yet she was entirely prepared to force Sansa to marry a sickly and developmentaly challenged boy against hers.

In my mind thats hippocrisy.

Again; in one case there is a father who sells his daughter to a man old enough to be her grandfather and the other is a girl who seeks help but in order for the others to help her she has to give something back. If she doesn't want to then she will get no help. I don't see the hypocrisy.

[jarhead1234]

I would just like to add that to Tysha it was indeed terrible, but nowhere near as bad as being killed out of hand or starving because the raiders burned your fields.

What Tywin did to Tysha was certainly more targeted, purposeful cruelty, which I think is worse morally than simply following the normal pillaging conventions of the time.

And however some might try to minimize that rape, a lord specifically ordering a mass rape is not something we see anywhere else. In fact, we do know that some other lords hung rapists, so it is not something that is universally accepted as simply okay.

Tywin did that for a reason, and if it really was no big deal, then there would have been no purpose to him doing it in the first place. GRRM also shows us -- through Jaime making that the one point he raises with Tyrion after his rescue from the dungeon -- that even a third party recognize it for being a hugely traumatic, major event in Tyrion's life, which simply wouldn't be the case if it was something that wasn't that bad. And by extension, the shock/trauma to Tyrion from simply witnessing that must have been far worse for the girl suffering it.

Honestly, I think that act of Tywin's is probably the worst, most malignant act any character in the book other than the Bastard has committed. It's not part of the culture in which they all were raised, and there was no financial or other gain to Tywin. It was simply targeted, pure cruelty upon a complete innocent.

[Dornish Vinegar]

What Tywin did to Tysha was certainly more targeted, purposeful cruelty, which I think is worse morally than simply following the normal pillaging conventions of the time.

And however some might try to minimize that rape, a lord specifically ordering a mass rape is not something we see anywhere else. In fact, we do know that some other lords hung rapists, so it is not something that is universally accepted as simply okay.

Tywin did that for a reason, and if it really was no big deal, then there would have been no purpose to him doing it in the first place. GRRM also shows us -- through Jaime making that the one point he raises with Tyrion after his rescue from the dungeon -- that even a third party recognize it for being a hugely traumatic, major event in Tyrion's life, which simply wouldn't be the case if it was something that wasn't that bad. And by extension, the shock/trauma to Tyrion from simply witnessing that must have been far worse for the girl suffering it.

Honestly, I think that act of Tywin's is probably the worst, most malignant act any character in the book other than the Bastard has committed. It's not part of the culture in which they all were raised, and there was no financial or other gain to Tywin. It was simply targeted, pure cruelty upon a complete innocent.

Nicely put, and welcome to the forums! :cheers:

[Woofless]

Not a great father by any stretch, but I think I would prefer him to Randyll Tarly!