Rickard Stark: scumbag?

[Chaircat Meow]

‘When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliance by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured they would act together in response to the Mad King’s crimes.’

The near obliteration of the Stark line refers to Rickard, Brandon and Ned. Why are misguided men laying the blame for this on Rickard? The passage in the woiaf does not say. The line about Rickard’s alliances is not a straightforward explication of the charge brought against Rickard by the misguided men. The woiaf clearly suggests some men think that Rickard was himself responsible for Aerys’s punishment of him, his eldest son, and the request for Ned’s head. Was Aerys within his rights to burn Rickard? The woiaf suggests some men clearly thought so. Why might they think that?

We know from DwD Rickard had southron ambitions, something the Starks traditionally stayed away from. He wanted to marry his daughter to the heir to Storm’s End, and his eldest son to Lord Tully’s eldest daughter. He fostered his second son with Lord Arryn and with his future son-in-law.

What were these ambitions for? We know the Starks had been promised a royal marriage under Cregan Stark, in the pact of ice and fire. We also know it did not materialize. We know the man Rickard betrothed his daughter to was next in line to the throne if king Aerys and his family were put aside. Therefore, if the Targs were removed, and the Baratheons put in their place, the Starks would have their royal marriage. I think removing the Targs and putting Robert on the throne was probably the rationale behind Rickard's southron ambitions. Throughout the books we hear the rebellion called Robert’s rebellion, and men like Connington and Rhaegar refer to Robert as its leader. Yet GrrM has said Robert only declared for the kingship at, or near to the time of, the Battle of the Trident. Therefore, there must have been a widespread assumption Robert could replace the Targs before that was actually made official at a late stage in the rebellion. I think it was probably current before the deaths of Rickard and Brandon.

We know the maesters were involved in the plot. Egg was not the only Targ to dream of dragons flying over westeros. We know from Marwyn the Mage that the grey rats are determined to build a world where magic and dragons have no place. Marwyn says the archmaesters have already plotted against the Targs and killed their dragons. From Lady Dustin we know that the Citadel was behind Rickard’s southron ambitions. The maester behind the Tully match was a son of one of the archmaesters and had links to the Hightowers. It seems likely therefore that southron ambitions was an anti-Targ crusade and a plan to establish a new Stark-Baratheon dynasty and to rid westeros of magic.

I think Rickard was encouraged by his maester but I feel we should not write him off as a pawn necessarily. He will have had his own motivations. We know Egg’s plans to acquire dragons and force through reforms were seen as tyranny. All Egg’s lords would have had a reason to fear the magical nature of House Targaryen. Moreover, the current Targ king was mad, and dangerous, so Rickard was encouraged to make his move. He had met Aerys and the king had spouted nonsense about the wall. The pact of ice and fire is also significant. The Targs ought to have given Cregan a Targ princess, and Rickard thought he was owed a royal marriage.

Rhaegar tried to shatter Rickard’s plot by eloping Lyanna (I owe this theory to the poster butterbumps!) and I think Lyanna also hoped to destroy her father’s ambitions and avoid a war. By eloping with Rhaegar she was fulfilling the promise of the pact. Aerys was right to suspect Rickard of treachery and have him killed.

It is also interesting that Rickard is called Rickard. We know the Starks evoke the House of York in the Wars of the Roses, and the Lannisters are the Lancasters. Richard of York had a claim to mad Henry VI’s throne, owing to his descent from Edward III. He became Lord Protector of England during one of the king’s bouts of madness and he had designs to either become king himself, or acquire that position for his son, Edward earl of March (Edward IV). Edward IV is clearly the inspiration for Robert Baratheon and so it is interesting the Stark (Yorkist) patriarch is called Rickard (so he’s basically called Richard) and that he chose to marry his daughter to Robert (Edward). So although in asoiaf Richard Plantagenet had no claim to the throne himself, he did aspire to become Edward IV’s father-in-law. I think that’s supposed to tell us something. Like Richard, Rickard was ambitious and had his eyes on the throne, not as king himself but as the king’s father-in-law and patron.

As his plan was to replace the Targs from the start I believe his scheme could have encompassed the utter annihilation of House Taryargen. That would make sense if his schemes were part of a maesters’ plot to destroy the Targs. We know Jon Arryn winked at the deaths of the Targ children and hurried to reward the man who carried out that crime. Jon and Robert also sent Stannis to Dragonstone to finish the job.

Rickard was ambitious and he could have had it coming. The reader thinks it is Dany who needs to learn the truth about the rebellion. In reality, Rhaegar, Lyanna and The Ned may have been the only good guys in the whole sorry saga.

For an older thread on a similar topic see:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57647-southron-ambitions-who-is-maester-warlyss-father/page-3

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

‘When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliance by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured they would act together in response to the Mad King’s crimes.’

The near obliteration of the Stark line refers to Rickard, Brandon and Ned. Why are misguided men laying the blame for this on Rickard? The passage in the woiaf does not say. The line about Rickard’s alliances is not a straightforward explication of the charge brought against Rickard by the misguided men. The woiaf clearly suggests some men think that Rickard was himself responsible for Aerys’s punishment of him, his eldest son, and the request for Ned’s head. Was Aerys within his rights to burn Rickard? The woiaf suggests some men clearly thought so. Why might they think that?

We know from DwD with Rickard had southron ambitions, something the Starks traditionally stayed away from. He wanted to marry his daughter to the heir to Storm’s End, and his eldest son to Lord Tully’s eldest daughter. He fostered his second son with Lord Arryn and with his future son-in-law.

What were these ambitions for? We know the Starks had been promised a royal marriage under Cregan Stark, in the pact of ice and fire. We also know it did not materialize. We know the man Rickard betrothed his daughter to was next in line to the throne if king Aerys and his family were put aside. Therefore, if the Targs were removed, and the Baratheons put in their place, the Starks would have their royal marriage. I think removing the Targs and putting Robert on the throne was probably the rationale behind Rickard's southron ambitions. Throughout the books we hear the rebellion called Robert’s rebellion, and men like Connington and Rhaegar refer to Robert as its leader. Yet GrrM has said Robert only declared for the kingship at, or near to the time of, the Battle of the Trident. Therefore, there must have been a widespread assumption Robert could replace the Targs before that was actually made official at a late stage in the rebellion. I think it was probably current before the deaths of Rickard and Brandon.

We know the maesters were involved in the plot. Egg was not the only Targ to dream of dragons flying over westeros. We know from Marwyn the Mage that the grey rats are determined to build a world where magic and dragons have no place. Marwyn says the archmaesters have already plotted against the Targs and killed their dragons. From Lady Dustin we know that the Citadel was behind Rickard’s southron ambitions. The maester behind the Tully match was a son of one of the archmaesters and had links to the Hightowers. It seems likely therefore that southron ambitions was an anti-Targ crusade and a plan to establish a new Stark-Baratheon dynasty and to rid westeros of magic.

I think Rickard was encouraged by his maester but I feel we should not write him off as a pawn necessarily. He will have had his own motivations. We know Egg’s plans to acquire dragons and force through reforms were seen as tyranny. All Egg’s lords would have had a reason to fear the magical nature of House Targaryen. Moreover, the current Targ king was mad, and dangerous, so Rickard was encouraged to make his move. He had met Aerys and the king had spouted nonsense about the wall. The pact of ice and fire is also significant. The Targs ought to have given Cregan a Targ princess, and Rickard thought he was owed a royal marriage.

Rhaegar tried to shatter Rickard’s plot by eloping Lyanna (I owe this theory to the poster butterbumps!) and I think Lyanna also hoped to destroy her father’s ambitions and avoid a war. By eloping with Rhaegar she was fulfilling the promise of the pact. Aerys was right to suspect Rickard of treachery and have him killed.

It is also interesting that Rickard is called Rickard. We know the Starks evoke the House of York in the Wars of the Roses, and the Lannisters are the Lancasters. Richard of York had a claim to mad Henry VI’s throne, owing to his descent from Edward III. He became Lord Protector of England during one of the king’s bouts of madness and he had designs to either become king himself, or acquire that position for his son, Edward earl of March (Edward IV). Edward IV is clearly the inspiration for Robert Baratheon and so it is interesting the Stark (Yorkist) patriarch) is called Rickard (so he’s basically called Richard) and that he chose to marry his daughter to Robert (Edward). So although in asoiaf Richard Plantagenet had no claim to the throne himself, he did aspire to become Edward IV’s father-in-law. I think that’s supposed to tell us something. Like Richard, Rickard was ambitious and had his eyes on the throne, not as king himself but as the king’s father-in-law and patron.

As his plan was to replace the Targs from the start I believe his scheme encompassed the utter annihilation of House Taryargen. That would make sense if his schemes were part of a maesters’ plot to destroy the Targs. We know Jon Arryn winked at the deaths of the Targ children and hurried to reward the man who carried out that crime. Jon and Robert also sent Stannis to Dragonstone to finish the job.

Rickard was ambitious and evil. He had it coming. The reader thinks it is Dany who needs to learn the truth about the rebellion. In reality, Rhaegar, Lyanna and The Ned were the only good guys in the whole sorry saga.

What's your point? Rickard Stark bethroted his two children to two great houses. So, that automatically means he was evil scumbag, like you refer to him in your thread title.

Is your thread title an attempt to attract people's attention, by calling a Stark scumbag?

If Rickard Stark was plotting from the begining, why didn't he simply raise the banners, where Aerys summoned him to KL? WHY DID HE GO WITH ONLY 200 MEN? WHY NOT WAIT 1 MONTH, CALL THE BANNERS, AND THEN MARCH SOUTH WITH 35000 NORTHRN ARMY? MAYBE TAG THE TULLYS ALONG AS WELL, SEEING AS BRANDON WAS BETHROTED TO HOSTER'S DAUGHTER?

HE COULD CETAINLY DO SO, AS HE ALREADY HAD TWO SPARE SONS, AND WHY WOULD HE CARE FOR THAT DAUGHTER, WHO RUINED ALL HIS SCHEMING? RIGHT?

[The Wolves]

Let's remmeber it was Robert who approached Rickard about marrying Lyanna not the other way around and GRRM confirmed this from the app.

And so what if Rickard wanted to have his house have better ties with the south why is that so bad the North boarders the Riverlands and the Arryns and Starks had fought a thousand years he had good ideas and the right way forging alliances he wasn't wrong nor do I think he was plotting to take down the Targs.

[Chaircat Meow]

What's your point? Rickard Stark bethroted his two children to two great houses. So, that automatically means he was evil scumbag, like you refer to him in your thread title.

Is your thread title an attempt to attract people's attention, by calling a Stark scumbag?

Lol!

No, that's not my point. Yes, of course I was trying to raise an absolute shitstorm.

[Cubarey]

First it's not clear at all that Robert would be next "in line" after the Targ's. He had Targ blood but so did other possible contestants. Second Rickard's ambitions while novel for a Northern family, were quite normal under the great nobility in general.

Also there is no proof in general outside of wanting his children to marry well for any conspiracy by Rickard. Moreover if Rickard was so ambitious, then think of what he would of made of his daughter becoming the second wife of Rhaegar. If he was an evil genious, he seems to have bungled his interests badly.

Those who fault Rickard were the Madking's flatterers, the ambiguous charge they place on Rickard is proof that they had no real evidence against him.

[Lord Lannister]

Such a scumbag, he loved his son so much he answered a royal summons that was all but definitely a death sentence.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Rickard was ambitious and evil. He had it coming. The reader thinks it is Dany who needs to learn the truth about the rebellion. In reality, Rhaegar, Lyanna and The Ned were the only good guys in the whole sorry saga.

Yeah of course. WoIaF dropped some serious hints about that. Lyarra's death was obviously not an accident. Rickard murdered her once she accidentally discovered his torture chamber in the crypts. He also almost certainly sexually abused his own kids and bathed in the blood of virgin stable boys.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Didn't Rickard travelled to KL? There is no indication of being in bad terms with the crown, tbh.

The evidence for the so-called ambitions of Rickard is only Lady Dustin's word, you know, the one bitter woman whose lover was probably playing and used his father as an excuse for not marrying her. Rickard, as far as we know, only wanted his most closest neighbours (Vale and Riverlands) to be on his side, which also could be nothing but preparation for the next winters. It's Lady Dustin the one who mainly paints him as an asshole, when the real asshole was Brandon.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard

[DarkSister1001]

I can't put too much faith in Lady Dustin's account. I think of her as jealous and bitter. Her bias makes her very unreliable. I don't think Rickard was doing anything more than securing their borders and their future.

ETA: Typo

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Lol!

No, that's not my point. Yes, of course I was trying to raise an absolute shitstorm.

Then Ser, you should have backed your comments with some textual proof, from main series, not Maester Yendel's biased account, which was obviously an attempt to kiss Tywin Lannister's ass.

[John Doe]

Of course it is completely biased. As are Roose and Lady DUstin when talking about the North/Starks. Luckily we have the unbiased accounts from people like Ned.

[Lee-Sensei]

@The Wolves Where did GRRM confirm that it was Roberts idea?

[Guess who's back]

Out of all people

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm dissappointed in you. I'd be all up to discuss cloak&dagger politics and Rickard being an ambitious asshole, but please, you can do better than spouting empty claims.

[Vylarr Rivers]

If you think about it pretty much all the Starks were quite unlikeable.

The only way we as a reader see it from a different point of view is because of Eddard and his children. Eddard, as a younger son, wasn't even groomed for ruling the North. I'd say Rickards plan was to bring Brandon in a dominant position marrying Catelyn, while keeping ties to the Vale/Stormlands after sending Eddard being fostered by Jon Arryn alongside Robert Baratheon.

Eddard's intended role may have been being a commander of a smaller army, but Rickard's main focus was the education of Brandon I think. So he didn't have time to raise Eddard as an a**hole. Well in the end, Brandon was an idiot...

Whether he planned to usurp the Targaryen throne from the beginning is doubtable, but I think the Arryn/Tully/Baratheon/Stark alliance was formed with the goal to at least limit the crowns influence of the separate kingdoms.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

‘When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliance by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured they would act together in response to the Mad King’s crimes.’

The near obliteration of the Stark line refers to Rickard, Brandon and Ned. Why are misguided men laying the blame for this on Rickard? The passage in the woiaf does not say. The line about Rickard’s alliances is not a straightforward explication of the charge brought against Rickard by the misguided men. The woiaf clearly suggests some men think that Rickard was himself responsible for Aerys’s punishment of him, his eldest son, and the request for Ned’s head. Was Aerys within his rights to burn Rickard? The woiaf suggests some men clearly thought so. Why might they think that?

We know from DwD Rickard had southron ambitions, something the Starks traditionally stayed away from. He wanted to marry his daughter to the heir to Storm’s End, and his eldest son to Lord Tully’s eldest daughter. He fostered his second son with Lord Arryn and with his future son-in-law.

What were these ambitions for? We know the Starks had been promised a royal marriage under Cregan Stark, in the pact of ice and fire. We also know it did not materialize. We know the man Rickard betrothed his daughter to was next in line to the throne if king Aerys and his family were put aside. Therefore, if the Targs were removed, and the Baratheons put in their place, the Starks would have their royal marriage. I think removing the Targs and putting Robert on the throne was probably the rationale behind Rickard's southron ambitions. Throughout the books we hear the rebellion called Robert’s rebellion, and men like Connington and Rhaegar refer to Robert as its leader. Yet GrrM has said Robert only declared for the kingship at, or near to the time of, the Battle of the Trident. Therefore, there must have been a widespread assumption Robert could replace the Targs before that was actually made official at a late stage in the rebellion. I think it was probably current before the deaths of Rickard and Brandon.

We know the maesters were involved in the plot. Egg was not the only Targ to dream of dragons flying over westeros. We know from Marwyn the Mage that the grey rats are determined to build a world where magic and dragons have no place. Marwyn says the archmaesters have already plotted against the Targs and killed their dragons. From Lady Dustin we know that the Citadel was behind Rickard’s southron ambitions. The maester behind the Tully match was a son of one of the archmaesters and had links to the Hightowers. It seems likely therefore that southron ambitions was an anti-Targ crusade and a plan to establish a new Stark-Baratheon dynasty and to rid westeros of magic.

I think Rickard was encouraged by his maester but I feel we should not write him off as a pawn necessarily. He will have had his own motivations. We know Egg’s plans to acquire dragons and force through reforms were seen as tyranny. All Egg’s lords would have had a reason to fear the magical nature of House Targaryen. Moreover, the current Targ king was mad, and dangerous, so Rickard was encouraged to make his move. He had met Aerys and the king had spouted nonsense about the wall. The pact of ice and fire is also significant. The Targs ought to have given Cregan a Targ princess, and Rickard thought he was owed a royal marriage.

Rhaegar tried to shatter Rickard’s plot by eloping Lyanna (I owe this theory to the poster butterbumps!) and I think Lyanna also hoped to destroy her father’s ambitions and avoid a war. By eloping with Rhaegar she was fulfilling the promise of the pact. Aerys was right to suspect Rickard of treachery and have him killed.

It is also interesting that Rickard is called Rickard. We know the Starks evoke the House of York in the Wars of the Roses, and the Lannisters are the Lancasters. Richard of York had a claim to mad Henry VI’s throne, owing to his descent from Edward III. He became Lord Protector of England during one of the king’s bouts of madness and he had designs to either become king himself, or acquire that position for his son, Edward earl of March (Edward IV). Edward IV is clearly the inspiration for Robert Baratheon and so it is interesting the Stark (Yorkist) patriarch is called Rickard (so he’s basically called Richard) and that he chose to marry his daughter to Robert (Edward). So although in asoiaf Richard Plantagenet had no claim to the throne himself, he did aspire to become Edward IV’s father-in-law. I think that’s supposed to tell us something. Like Richard, Rickard was ambitious and had his eyes on the throne, not as king himself but as the king’s father-in-law and patron.

As his plan was to replace the Targs from the start I believe his scheme encompassed the utter annihilation of House Taryargen. That would make sense if his schemes were part of a maesters’ plot to destroy the Targs. We know Jon Arryn winked at the deaths of the Targ children and hurried to reward the man who carried out that crime. Jon and Robert also sent Stannis to Dragonstone to finish the job.

Rickard was ambitious and evil. He had it coming. The reader thinks it is Dany who needs to learn the truth about the rebellion. In reality, Rhaegar, Lyanna and The Ned were the only good guys in the whole sorry saga.

Misguided by whom? Ned perhaps, who was itching to take the Wardenship of North from his evil, scumbag father, who perhaps even abused Ned as a child?

[Chaircat Meow]

Then Ser, you should have backed your comments with some textual proof, from main series, not Maester Yendel's biased account, which was obviously an attempt to kiss Tywin Lannister's ass.

So the woiaf is biased in favour of Robert and the Houses that fought with him, and that means we should trust it when it says people who thought one of king Aerys's enemies brought it upon himself were misguided, mmh? How interesting, almost like you didn't think that comment through ...

[SeanF]

I think we'll ultimately learn there were faults on both sides.

Aerys was a dangerous lunatic, who went on a killing spree, after Brandon rode to the Red Keep. We have no way of knowing, on the evidence we have so far, if Rickard's Southern ambitions went as far as wishing to overthrow and annihilate the Targaryens.

I think it likely (as we discussed on the other thread) that once Robert announced his intention to become King, some senior rebel leaders (other than Tywin) decided to kill the entire royal family.

It's far too premature to describe Rickon as "an utter scumbag". The story may reveal him as such, or something else.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

So the woiaf is biased in favour of Robert and the Houses that fought with him, and that means we shouldn't trust it when it says people who thought one of king Aerys's enemies brought it upon himself were misguided, mmh? How interesting, almost like you didn't think that comment through ...

So Tywin fought with Robert. Oh wait, when Robert was fighting all over Westeros, Tywin was sitting on his ass, just like Walder Frey, waiting to latch on victorious side , at last moment, like a parasite.