can cersei be considered the embodiment of a modern extreme feminist?

[Lady Meliora]

hm. It's not like GRRM doesn't have a feminist point to make. Iron Islanders screw themselves by choosing Euron, who doesn't give a fuck about them, over Asha, because of Asha's gender. There's Cat, who has freedom as Ned's wife, then is reduced to advising and obeying her fifteen year old son after Ned's death. There's Arianne, who feels insecure as the female heir, even in Dorne, and acts out in a way that has the potential to hurt daddy's plans.

You can even say that the response to Lyanna-Rhaegar is a result of stereotyping women as virgins or whores. Starks and Baratheons must blame Rhaegar. Ned believes that his sister had a hand, but he can't say it, as that would reduce his sister to a "whore" in Westeros. Turning Lyanna into Rhaegar's victim in part leads to Robert's Rebellion.

And there are characters who are at odds with the male-female role dichotomy much more so than Cersei claims she is. Look at Brienne--she isn't taken seriously as warrior and can't be a knight because she's a woman (even though she's good at it), but she feels completely uncomfortable and out of place as a "proper" Westeros woman. Catelyn's first reaction to seeing Brienne without her helmet is to pity her because it's so hard to be an ugly woman in their culture. Cersei isn't a feminist type--she's a narcissistic egomaniac.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Woah, those quotes...... :stunned:

Regarding the first quote.

The actual quote is:

"Whatever they may be in public life, whatever their relations with men, in their relations with women, all men are rapists, and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes."

Also,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_French

French's 1977 novel The Women's Room follows the lives of Mira and her friends in 1950s and 1960s America, including Val, a militant radical feminist. The novel portrays the details of the lives of women at this time and the feminist movement of this era in the United States. At one point in the book the character Val says "all men are rapists".[3] This quote has often been incorrectly attributed to Marilyn French herself. French's first book was a thesis on James Joyce.[1]

So, the quote taken in context, is all men are metaphorical rapists, not literal ones. And, it comes from a fictional character in a book written by French, not French herself.

The OP should consider researching the other quotes and maybe even be careful of quote mining and context.

[Snark_Tamer]

I think if the question were presented to Cersei she might think she was a feminist, and in this way has something in common with some of the feminist extremists who are clearly missing the boat. ACTUAL feminism is about women being PEOPLE and offers MEN freedom from THEIR prescribed gender roles as well as women.

I agree with everyone who stated Cersei's REAL stance is one of narcissism and she has done NOTHING for the betterment of any women but herself. In fact she makes a sincere effort at USING other women (Sansa) and undoing them (framing Margaery).

I see the actual feminists in the series as people Like Lady Olenna and the people of Dorne.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

No. Like modern extremist feminists Cersei is bigoted towards men, she gives too much regard to gender being the influence of others disregarding her (though it does play a role) but unlike extremist modern feminists she is also bigoted towards everyone else. She is a Cerseist. But still she does have similarities with them. And any Cersei fanboys/fangirls arguing that she is justifiable in any of her terrible unjustifiable things she does because oppression are arguing a similarly narcissistic, sociopathic argument as she does. So this kind of arguement used by Cersei can be found in modern people as well. The difference is that they extend it to other people who they classify as oppressed groups even in cases where they shouldn't, while for Cersei it is only for herself.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

...And no, Cersei is very obviously not a feminist, Cersei is a Cersei-ist. She is preoccupied only with accruing and consolidating her own power and prestige. She is not motivated by any sense of solidarity with anyone or any group and she doesn't give a damn about gender equality or empowering anyone else but herself.

/thread.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Is contemplating getting a strap on to party with taena a sign of feminism

[SeanF]

Is contemplating getting a strap on to party with taena a sign of feminism

I don't remember her doing that.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Cersei was/is a queen of the entire 7K. That's a position encompassing more dignity, respect, power and opportunity than 99% of the population (including men) ever gets. The only reason she's been unable to wield it to achieve these things is because she's an idiot.

Pretty much. Talking about glass ceiling with regard to Cersei is undiluted, industrial-grade bullshit.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

I don't remember her doing that.

Can`t remember which chapter but taena telling her theres a bloke who can turn women into men if they wanna have some fun. It`s very loosely implied

[Weirdo]

Only by total fuckwits.

Oafkeeper speaks for me. Now I can leave this thread behind me. I'd say I'm sorry I clicked on it in the first place, but I was actually heartened by the eloquent rejections of the premise of this thread. Cheers.

[kimim]

And there are characters who are at odds with the male-female role dichotomy much more so than Cersei claims she is. Look at Brienne--she isn't taken seriously as warrior and can't be a knight because she's a woman (even though she's good at it), but she feels completely uncomfortable and out of place as a "proper" Westeros woman. Catelyn's first reaction to seeing Brienne without her helmet is to pity her because it's so hard to be an ugly woman in their culture. Cersei isn't a feminist type--she's a narcissistic egomaniac.

...true. Also, Brienne feels guilty for not fitting expectations. There's a moment where she says that her father deserved a better child than her, either a lovely daughter he could marry off, or a brave son. Can't remember the quote, sorry, but it was sad. otoh, those expectations hurt the men, too. Sam isn't warlike, doesn't fit the brave son stereotype, so gets sent to the Wall.

[TerranV]

If Cersei was a feminist she would use her power as Queen to try and improve the lives of women in Westeros.

Does she try to give women equal rights in regards to inheritance? No.

Does she try to ban arranged marriages? No.

Does she try to ban spousal abuse so no one else will suffer as she did in her marriage? No.

[Light a wight tonight]

That is all she thinks she has. That is all she has been treated as so she will use it. She was her father's property to be sold to the highest bidder for fornication and to provide children. Its like when Arya runs through all those things Bran would be able to do without his legs but she wouldn't be able to do because she is a girl. She is less use than a 'cripple'. Ned, in all lovingness, says that she will marry well and have kids, that is it. Her sons will be Princes, Knights, all these great things and all she will ever be is their mother. That is Cersei's life, her sexuality is the only thing she has and as she loses influence over the male extensions of her she's getting crazier and crazier. She seriously thought Joffrey would be her puppet, her pathway to utility beyond her privates.

Sorry, I can't entirely agree with this. Is sounds to me that you're projecting your ideas onto Cersei. She's not lacking in power. She has all the prestige and wealth of House Lannster behind her. She gets Maggy to read her fortune by threatening her with a whipping at the hands of Tywin's men. She treats Sansa badly because she can get away with it. She uses sex in her dealings with men to make herself feel superior to them.

[Lady Meliora]

...true. Also, Brienne feels guilty for not fitting expectations. There's a moment where she says that her father deserved a better child than her, either a lovely daughter he could marry off, or a brave son. Can't remember the quote, sorry, but it was sad. otoh, those expectations hurt the men, too. Sam isn't warlike, doesn't fit the brave son stereotype, so gets sent to the Wall.

Sam and Brienne are like two sides of the same coin. His back story about his dad's threat was so sad. I agree 100% that the stereotypes and expectations hurt people of every sex and gender. That's why it's so laughable to think of Cersei as a feminist. She doesn't care if every other woman in Westeros lives in abject submission, as long as she gets her way.

[XSarellaX]

I find it hard to consider Cersei as any sort of feminist after she called one of the septas a "dry cunt" or something. Really, I understand her anger at the situation, but is that all an old woman is? Expired lady bits?

Cersei is very sexist, in fact, the only problem she has with sexism is that it affects her, when she is "obviously" the only woman worthy of some respect.

[White Ravens]

i know the first thing to pop up in a reader's mind is '' misogynist '' . But i'm talking about extreme feminists, the type that swells the ranks of feminist groups.

"All men are rapists and that's all they are"

-- Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." -- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of

another woman." -- Andrea Dworkin

"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression." -- Sheila Jeffrys

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." --Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

"All men are good for is ****ing, and running over with a truck".Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator

Women like these. There are obviously many humane reasonable feminists.

Cersei in my eyes is completely analogous to the stereotypical angry, malicious feminist. She hates men, considers it her right to murder and cheat because robert cheats and kills people. She considers herself super smart and competent though she's clearly the opposite.

Her ambitions and schemes fall short due to her own shortsightedness and malice but she blames it on others. She blames other men in her life for her own shortcomings but is unable to accomplish anything without them. She blames tywin for not being able to give her rhaegar, she blames jaime for not being there for her at the blackwater( though none these are tywin or jaime's fault )

For example she hates tyrion, but she let's him defend the city during blackwater and contributes nothing to the effort. We saw cat and jenna sitting at war councils and taking part in planning. Cat constantly provided robb with good council( though he didn't listen )

Cersei however contributes nothing to the effort. Instead she sits the whole preparation and battle phases out, drinking, whoring, bitching and complaining that she has never been appreciated for her role for the family.

Furthermore she also displays an inability to see her own fault like most hardcore feminists.

Why yes, you do come across as a mysoginist. In fact you come across as a meninist.

Meninist

"Meninism is a mockery of feminism and proves that we can't request equality without white

men making everything about themselves.

"Oppressed" white guys think that feminism is a threat to their masculinity."

Sorry for the huge font. Cutting and pasting on my iPod.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Sorry, I can't entirely agree with this. Is sounds to me that you're projecting your ideas onto Cersei. She's not lacking in power. She has all the prestige and wealth of House Lannster behind her. She gets Maggy to read her fortune by threatening her with a whipping at the hands of Tywin's men. She treats Sansa badly because she can get away with it. She uses sex in her dealings with men to make herself feel superior to them.

I don't agree with that. I don't think sex makes her feel superior to them at all, I think she perpetually victimises herself in comparison. You think she feels better about herself for having sex with Lancel? If she is going to use sex for self esteem at least seduce more challenging men! I don't think sex has any meaning to Cersei at all. Its a tool for her to use. Years of sex with a man she hated has removed any sentimentality about it.

Cersei is lacking fundamental power that money cannot buy. She was born a Lannister, born in privilege, but she was always the property of her father. She must do as her father commands. This includes something as important as marriage. Cersei cannot choose who she marries, it is chosen for her, she has no power despite her money or her name. She hates the man she is married to, she cannot divorce him, despite having money, despite being a Lannister, despite being Queen. Now she has children and she sees that she can use them to get some agency. Motherhood is the one real power in her life. Then she finds out her children are their own people and will not listen to her, despite her money, despite her name, despite her role as their mother, despite her experience as queen regent. She is not Hand, her hated brother is, then her father is, then Mace Tyrell is. She cannot act unilaterally as she is not hand, she has no power over her sons, one of whom is being influenced by her 'enemies' the Tyrells.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

She hates the man she is married to, she cannot divorce him, despite having money, despite being a Lannister, despite being Queen. Now she has children and she sees that she can use them to get some agency. Motherhood is the one real power in her life. Then she finds out her children are their own people and will not listen to her, despite her money, despite her name, despite her role as their mother, despite her experience as queen regent. She is not Hand, her hated brother is, then her father is, then Mace Tyrell is. She cannot act unilaterally as she is not hand, she has no power over her sons, one of whom is being influenced by her 'enemies' the Tyrells.

:rofl:

That really isn't a very artful manipulation. No, Mace Tyrell did not succeed Tywin Lannister. Tywin Lannister was succeeded by whoever the fuck Cersei wanted on this office, and that dude in turn was succeeded by, again, whoever the fuck Cersei wanted. Both Swyft and Merryweather's input was limited to saying "Yes, Your Grace". That blessed state of unchecked power ended only when she managed to land herself in prison.

I cannot interpret your writing "Tyrion was Hand, then Tywin was, then Mace Tyrell" as anything else but intellectual dishonesty.

[Maid So Fair]

I don't agree with that. I don't think sex makes her feel superior to them at all, I think she perpetually victimises herself in comparison. You think she feels better about herself for having sex with Lancel? If she is going to use sex for self esteem at least seduce more challenging men! I don't think sex has any meaning to Cersei at all. Its a tool for her to use. Years of sex with a man she hated has removed any sentimentality about it.

Cersei is lacking fundamental power that money cannot buy. She was born a Lannister, born in privilege, but she was always the property of her father. She must do as her father commands. This includes something as important as marriage. Cersei cannot choose who she marries, it is chosen for her, she has no power despite her money or her name. She hates the man she is married to, she cannot divorce him, despite having money, despite being a Lannister, despite being Queen. Now she has children and she sees that she can use them to get some agency. Motherhood is the one real power in her life. Then she finds out her children are their own people and will not listen to her, despite her money, despite her name, despite her role as their mother, despite her experience as queen regent. She is not Hand, her hated brother is, then her father is, then Mace Tyrell is. She cannot act unilaterally as she is not hand, she has no power over her sons, one of whom is being influenced by her 'enemies' the Tyrells.

So were her brothers. Jaime was meant to marry Lysa and Tyrion was married off to Sansa. Cersei wasn't exactly opposed to the marriage and being Queen when it happened, that only happened afterwards. And men are no more free to divorce than their wives.

[Cas Stark]

I don't agree with that. I don't think sex makes her feel superior to them at all, I think she perpetually victimises herself in comparison. You think she feels better about herself for having sex with Lancel? If she is going to use sex for self esteem at least seduce more challenging men! I don't think sex has any meaning to Cersei at all. Its a tool for her to use. Years of sex with a man she hated has removed any sentimentality about it.

Cersei is lacking fundamental power that money cannot buy. She was born a Lannister, born in privilege, but she was always the property of her father. She must do as her father commands. This includes something as important as marriage. Cersei cannot choose who she marries, it is chosen for her, she has no power despite her money or her name. She hates the man she is married to, she cannot divorce him, despite having money, despite being a Lannister, despite being Queen. Now she has children and she sees that she can use them to get some agency. Motherhood is the one real power in her life. Then she finds out her children are their own people and will not listen to her, despite her money, despite her name, despite her role as their mother, despite her experience as queen regent. She is not Hand, her hated brother is, then her father is, then Mace Tyrell is. She cannot act unilaterally as she is not hand, she has no power over her sons, one of whom is being influenced by her 'enemies' the Tyrells.

Sorry. No sale.

She is Queen of Westeros. She is the third most powerful person in the country, after the king and the hand. Once the king is dead and she is regent she is the most powerful person in the country. She had a ton of power when Robert was alive, but she never exercised it for anything but petty plots, because she is a petty person.

Her problem is that she doesn't understand power, how to use it and keep it, not that she cannot get it because she's a woman. Cat Stark had plenty of power because she commanded loyalty, so do other women in the series, also who were "property" of their fathers and who had to marry who their families told them to, yet they were not really powerless.