Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[Isobel Harper]

But Sansa IMO will change in a way she is diametrically opposed to Jon, I actually predict there will be a Sansa/Blackfyre/SR/Blackfish/possibly Dornish anti-CoTF alliance against Jon Snow/Bloodraven/Stannis/Rickon/Bran/Howland Reed/Arya/possibly Asha/Theon Ironborn faction, it is basically a case of the old Kingdom of the Tully/Frey Riverlands is basically dead on its feet and a new Harren the Black type Kingdom of the Rivers and the Vale is set to be borne out of its ashes (instead of Rivers and the Isles) where instead of the faith of the Seven there is basically the corrupted worship of death

I'm not sure how a Sansa/Blackfyre/Targ alliance would be anti-CotF. Could you elaborate on that? Also in your mind, would DoD 2.0 be chiefly between Aegon and Jon or among all three Targaryens?

But Sansa IMO will change in a way she is diametrically opposed to Jon, I actually predict there will be a Sansa/Blackfyre/SR/Blackfish/possibly Dornish anti-CoTF alliance against Jon Snow/Bloodraven/Stannis/Rickon/Bran/Howland Reed/Arya/possibly Asha/Theon Ironborn faction, it is basically a case of the old Kingdom of the Tully/Frey Riverlands is basically dead on its feet and a new Harren the Black type Kingdom of the Rivers and the Vale is set to be borne out of its ashes (instead of Rivers and the Isles) where instead of the faith of the Seven there is basically the corrupted worship of death

?? I'm not sure I follow you.

For mine the writing on the Wall is that Sansa and Jon Snow will become quite serious enemies. Robbs will may become an important plot device, basically that Kingdom will be torn in half which is the point, the northern Lords will back Jons Kingship based in Winterfell but will include the Wildlings now too and the Riverlords or what's left of them will back Sansa via the Blackfish. Furthermore Sweetrobin will back Sansa. There's basically an Old Gods versus, well, the anti-Old Gods

"Family first" is very strong amongst the Starks. Jon remembers all of his siblings fondly, as does Sansa. I see it being possible that Sansa and Jon end up on two different political sides, but I don't see them as true enemies. If the Dance is amongst the Targaryens (2 or 3 of them), then I can imagine the Starks being thrown in the middle of it and torn about taking sides. If Sansa marries Aegon, and Jon and Aegon are pitted against each other, what could make her more torn than having to decide between a husband and a brother, especially in regards to where to supply military support?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

If this thread is to ressurect, I'll will add that I'm starting to think HBO!Sansa has markedly better odds of ending up with Jon than Book!Sansa.

I'm probably on thin ice because by just hinting at future episodes, but let's just say that means and opportunity are tantalizingly close in HBO whilst I have no idea how it'd happen anytime soon in the books on a logistical level. All that's missing is R+L=J knowledge.

Jon Snow is going to Hardhome mid season and then will be Ceseared. I don't think they will even see each other this year. I believe Sansa will end this year either trapped in Winterfell or in camp Stannis.

[Lord Friendzone]

If this thread is to ressurect, I'll will add that I'm starting to think HBO!Sansa has markedly better odds of ending up with Jon than Book!Sansa.

I'm probably on thin ice because by just hinting at future episodes, but let's just say that means and opportunity are tantalizingly close in HBO whilst I have no idea how it'd happen anytime soon in the books on a logistical level. All that's missing is R+L=J knowledge.

Maybe Show!Sansa will figured out Jon's parentage and not to be his lover.I just couldn't imagine Jon with Sansa or Arya. :ack: Starkcest is just no-no.

[Poorboy78]

Well.. what if Jon is the next Aegon the Conqueror with his two sister wives? Well... Jon has two sister that could be wives, Arya and Sansa.

[AllOfTheHours]

If this thread is to ressurect, I'll will add that I'm starting to think HBO!Sansa has markedly better odds of ending up with Jon than Book!Sansa.

I'm probably on thin ice because by just hinting at future episodes, but let's just say that means and opportunity are tantalizingly close in HBO whilst I have no idea how it'd happen anytime soon in the books on a logistical level. All that's missing is R+L=J knowledge.

I foresee this being a hot topic of conversation in the weeks to come. I'm not sure about Jonsa, but I do get the feeling - pure speculation, not based on spoilers - that Jon and Sansa will be the first Stark siblings to reunite. And then either Starkcest could happen or one of them will die, although I'm not sure which would be considered more tragic by the majority of the fandom, lol.

[shk12344]

Here. Jon will marry Ghost.

Jon thinks about Ghost all the time and I'm sure some clever folks can come up with quotes from books that can be interpreted as foreshadowing of interspecies romance between the two.

Remember where you heard it first.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I foresee this being a hot topic of conversation in the weeks to come. I'm not sure about Jonsa, but I do get the feeling - pure speculation, not based on spoilers - that Jon and Sansa will be the first Stark siblings to reunite. And then either Starkcest could happen or one of them will die, although I'm not sure which would be considered more tragic by the majority of the fandom, lol.

I think Rickon will be back before Jon to be honest.

Rickon probably first in the books as Davos is on the job already. Unless that is a Shaggydog story.

So books: Rickon- Sansa- Jon- Bran (feeling more confident about this)- Arya (She got some business to attend to first)

TV Show: Sansa- Rickon- Jon- Bran- Arya (still with business)

[Ghosts Lunch]

I'm not sure how a Sansa/Blackfyre/Targ alliance would be anti-CotF. Could you elaborate on that? Also in your mind, would DoD 2.0 be chiefly between Aegon and Jon or among all three Targaryens?

?? I'm not sure I follow you.

"Family first" is very strong amongst the Starks. Jon remembers all of his siblings fondly, as does Sansa. I see it being possible that Sansa and Jon end up on two different political sides, but I don't see them as true enemies. If the Dance is amongst the Targaryens (2 or 3 of them), then I can imagine the Starks being thrown in the middle of it and torn about taking sides. If Sansa marries Aegon, and Jon and Aegon are pitted against each other, what could make her more torn than having to decide between a husband and a brother, especially in regards to where to supply military support?

Basically because I see Sansa as becoming centred around Harrenhall, basically as a Lady Lothstong mkII and Lady Stoneheart is a lead-in, to what the Alayne Stone arc is leading to. The clue is in the fact Jaimie leaves with the bat shield, and gives Brienne this along with oathkeeper, they are keeping the Oath to Cat or rather Lady Stoneheart, so this basically means Brienne, Jaimie and co fetching Alayne Stone.

There's a lot of clues in Harrenhall, basically it is near a dead Weir Grove, the beams and rafters are carved out of Weir wood. The Weir Tree is highly twisted. There's also the Towers, Lady Lothston used to send bats out to kidnap children as part of blood sacrifices. basically think in terms of anti-children.

Weir Groves don't grow in the Eyrie, Sweetrobin hates singing and loves flying creatures which can mean Falcons but also Bats and people greatly pointed out the 8 winged Knights + 1 (being SR) matches the 9 winged bats of a Harrenhall House, the Blackfish is childless etc etc, there's a clear "anti-children" and anti singing flavour to it all which points to them not being inclined towards the Children who sing the song of the Earth. I think the other side of the coin is Bran in Hodor seeing dead Bats hanging upside down

This is important because I think it ties in with the twisted Weir Tree pointing to SR as being an anti-Bran, a throw-away Leaf line suggested Bran may be able to "call people back from the Dead" which implies Sweetrobin may be able to do so

The Lothstons were against the Blackfyres but a hair by the fire comment has me considering Alayne will move over to the Blackfyres, Bloodraven who is tutoring Bran as the 3-eyed Raven fought notably against the Blacfyres so it isn't s stretch he'll work against them again

The themes are all there. I won't be surprised if we see talk of legions of Bats which end up going around chasing Ravens around and there are "communication problems" mentioned lol, of course this will be about destroying his spy network and on a larger scale

Harrenhall strikes me as a kind of reverse of Brans Cave, I suspect Sansa who already has Royal Blood asa Princess of Robbs Kingdom and in due course have Queens Blood and will start using some potent bloodmagic out of Harenhall. This is where it is becomes about death rather than faith of the Seven, like Danelle Lothston she will need to use heaps of sacrifices in conjunction with her Queens blood.

The Starks are big on sibliings, Sansa does start to recollect Arya with a bit more fondness but the death of Lady signifies she will never go back to her Stark roots, though I do suspect Nymeria pack will support her rule, or rather thje Blackfsh ruling our of Rivverrun on behalf of Sansa, those wolves will chase the Freys down after Stoneheart has gone Rains of Castamere on the Twins

It's mostly a Bran/Bloodraven versus Sansa/Sweetrobin dynamic, but the cynicism of the Blackfish towards Jon on behalf of the Tully's makes me think there will be a anti-Jon element to it. I basically see Jon becoming very close to Bran while in Ghost, Sansa can't detect Jon in this way unlike Arya, Bran and perhaps Rickon which points to a disconnect.

I am starting to suspect Bran will revive Jons body rather than Mel for reasons I won't go into here for word length reasons

Basically I am starting to think there will be a kind of Quasi-three way Dance of the Dragons. Aegon will have Viserion, he is fulfilling Viserys and Blackfyres Dream at once. Jon will have Rhaegal, he is fulfilling Rheagars dream but will mostly be in the North, Dany will have Drogon, she is about finishing Targaryen affiliation with Westeros and resurrecting the Eastern Empire.

They will all clash in some way but mostly Viserion and Drogon, Drogon will kill Aegon+Viserion, destroy KL and melt down the Iron Throne and whatever is left taken to Vaes Dothrak.

^^^ All of this is hinted at Viserys being killed in Vaes Dothrak

Rhaegal and Jon Stark-Targaryen will mostly be in the north though, I expect he will clash mostly with some kind of "Undead" Ice Dragon hatched out of Eurons Egg, the "throwing it in the Sea" is quite cryptic reference to the religion of the Drowned God (Others worship) so a Dragon will hatch of it but it will be different so a Wighted Undead Dragon based on he Ice format of life makes sense to me (he didn't literally throw it in IMO), that might be part of a Euron/HoU/HoB&W/Others alliance

This is getting a bit off-topic though

[BitsOfBrains]

Jon wouldn't want to marry Sansa and Sansa wouldn't want to marry Jon.

Sansa was always a bitch to Jon.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Jon wouldn't want to marry Sansa and Sansa wouldn't want to marry Jon.

Sansa was always a bitch to Jon.

Marriage in Westeros have little do to do with wants.

If it ever comes to such a marriage, it'd be because it's politically convenient, which it can be in certain scenarios and not at all in others, depending on who ends up in power and whether or not Jon is 'outed' as a Targaryen and only a first cousin to Sansa instead of a half brother.

And she was not a 'bitch' to Jon.

[opalalchemy]

1. It is hypothesized that GRRM hid clues regarding who Sansa would marry in The Hedge Knight which indicate that the last person she will be betrothed to is a Targaryan.

While I personally think Jon and Sansa would make a great Ned/Cat 2.0 it is unlikely to happen.

To me, Sansa's story arc is headed toward a more Elizabeth 1 ending.

And while I do think "The Hedge Knight" indicates everyone Sansa will be betrothed to notice that the short story never tells us who wins the tourney and crowns that girl QoLaB. They all compete but in the end none of them win the prize. This is how it will be for Sansa.

[binhorde]

No idea if this will happen in the books. It's a tricky situation now since the TV guys know the ending, but we don't know what they're changing or hinting at with their writing decisions for the adaptation. I have not seen the leaked episodes. I have read reviews of them, from official sources and official reviewers who obtained the first four legally and it does appear the show is hinting and heading towards something significant happening with Jon/Sansa at some point in the future story.

My personal opinion is a Jon/Sansa marriage or romance will not occur. Though, I have thought for a long time their future relationship changes and they become very close, say like a Ned/Lyanna relationship for example. If there are any hints in the text or show, perhaps that's what the hints are getting at. Not romance, just a close, loving, caring relationship.

[Ghosts Lunch]

lol,

Jon wouldn't want to marry Sansa and Sansa wouldn't want to marry Jon.

Sansa was always a bitch to Jon.

Marriage in Westeros have little do to do with wants.

If it ever comes to such a marriage, it'd be because it's politically convenient, which it can be in certain scenarios and not at all in others, depending on who ends up in power and whether or not Jon is 'outed' as a Targaryen and only a first cousin to Sansa instead of a half brother.

And she was not a 'bitch' to Jon.

Recently went back through the Arya chapter, she obviously never held Jon in much regard, and "politely" which in Sansa terms is with the armour on which means it was really said with a sense of disdain is putting Jon down when she is calling him jealous because he is a bastard, Arya points out he is their brother and Sansa makes a point of saying half-brother with Ladylike demeanour (not a forthright answer, it is a controlled answer which means it is said very deliberately to Arya as a put-down)

This is patronising and points to Sansa holding Jon in lesser regard to the other siblings. It's hardly surprising given how bastards were viewed by trueborn and high placed Ladies in particular who see them as an irritating stain on their prestige and honour, in the case of Cat Jons presence was like having salt rubbed into the wound. In putting Cats behaviour into context consider how the bastard girl in the Shield Islands was treated by the Lady and half-siblings

There's some irony in terms of HtH reflecting Sansa's mindset back to her and the ascension of Sansa's rise to power through the Alayne Stone persona.

Also the fact that Sansa detaches herself from the north/Winterfell/Stark side of herself and so becomes a "half-sister" to her trueborn siblings and a nothing-sister to Jon

More than that it is a foreshadowing IMO regarding the inheritance of Robbs old Kingdom

She is indeed very much "being a bitch" to Jon, putting it in context she's a bitch to trueborn Arya and Sweetrobin too so Jon is hardly surprising, it's the way highborn Lady's are and Sansa is a major snob (no judgement as she's been groomed that way),

The early books have been out for a long time so Sansa has been seen as a victim for a long long time, but she won't be particularly sympathetic in the end and she will get her revenge on Cersei big time.

Thing is Myrcella and Tommen have been well written and are really nice so when they bear the brunt of Cersei and Joffreys excesses it will rightly be sad

lol the idea of Sansa and Jon marrying is like Cat accepting Jon, Sansa and Jon will be major enemies

[OmnomnomPomelo]

No.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I will add in a further point, Sansa really doesen't like bastards

Watch this space not only in terms of Jon Snow but Mya Stone and Gendry (Gendry Crownlands? never heard his last name)

[Isobel Harper]

<snip>

Arya points out he is their brother and Sansa makes a point of saying half-brother

<snip>

AGoT Bran I:

Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

AGoT Bran I:

Bran gave the pup a quick nervous stroke, then turned as Jon said, "Here you go." His half brother put a second pup into his arms.

AGoT Sansa III:

She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon.

ACoK Bran II:

"The let Lord Hornwood's bastard be the heir," Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon.

AFFC Arya II:

...but not for true, not in her heart of hearts. In there she was Arya of Winterfell, the daughter of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catelyn, who had once had brothers named Robb and Bran and Rickon, a sister named Sansa, a direwolf called Nymeria, a half brother named Jon Snow.

AFFC Alayne II:

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still... with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.

[Isobel Harper]

I will add in a further point, Sansa really doesen't like bastards

Watch this space not only in terms of Jon Snow but Mya Stone and Gendry (Gendry Crownlands? never heard his last name)

His name would be Gendry Waters, as he's born in the Crownlands. Sansa has never met him.

What gives you the idea that Sansa doesn't like Mya Stone? From my reads, I gathered that she respected her.

[AllOfTheHours]

How do you guys define "being a bitch?" It is clearly a gendered insult, usually referring to a woman who is bossy, demanding. or otherwise overstepping her place as a woman.

I don't see Sansa "being a bitch" to Jon in any iteration of the meaning of that insult.

1.) She isn't bossy or demanding, and, if anything, tries to stay in her place as a woman and lady. Jon's presence in her house reminds the entire North and court of KL that her father was dishonorable. That's why he's placed at the small table away from the raised tables and main feasting when the Court comes to Winterfell.

2.) He is actually jealous. Arya doesn't see that from her POV, perhaps because, ironically, Arya is clearly jealous of Sansa. Arya thinks jealously "she does everything prettily," and runs out crying from the sewing lesson where Sansa is the star. Arya doesn't want to admit her jealousy of Sansa, but it's there, and most of her insults towards Sansa come from a place of Arya feeling inferior/shamed when compared to her sister's success (in the eyes of Septa Mordane and Cat).

Arya's jealousy is very human and very real, and its part of what makes her a realistic character. And Jon feels the same way towards Joffrey and Robb, he literally says something like "bastards aren't allowed to bruise princes" with some bitterness. He later talks about how much he admires the Young Dragon who conquered Dorne. Showing how Jon has always admired princes and lords, and is jealous (like any other human being in his position) that he can't be one.

And in ASoS we see him retelling Mance his experiences when the King visited Winterfell. He says he wants to be a turncoat because he was at the small table during that feast. Implying that the systematic oppression and put downs he experienced living as a bastard did make him jealous. I mean, by his own actions we can see that's why he gets stupid drunk and starts crying as he runs out after talking with his Uncle Benjen. And Tyrion, in the same chapter, points out how prickly he is about being called a "bastard." It's a swore, painful place for Jon. And it is reasonable for him to feel jealous. Jon doesn't actually turn Wildling, but that's because he thinks he has to protect the NW and the realm, not because he ever thinks he wasn't actually jealous when he was the bastard of Winterfell. He was jealous but it is tinged with love (for his siblings) and pride (at being a Ned's son).

Plus, he constantly talks about being jealous of Robb. He calls him his best friend and rival. He says he longs for Ice instead of Longclaw (he wants his father's ancestral sword that will belong to his brother). And he had always dreamed of being lord of Winterfell. So he is jealous but he has a reason to be.

I agree that Sansa could have been kinder to Jon. But to say she was "a bitch" and that he wasn't jealous, reduces their characters IMO. Especially because Jon's jealousy defines his character arc (in similar ways to Theon's) since he desperately wants to be a Stark and make Ned proud. In GoT, when he tries to go and help Robb, he thinks, "Let them say Eddard Stark had four sons, not three." And that's why it is so hard for him to turn down Stannis's offer to be Lord of Winterfell (when it was the first and greatest thing he ever wanted). But he does it because to burn down the weirwood would dishonor his father. And Ned's love and acceptance (to be seen as his fourth son, not just his "passing by blow") and his jealousy of his trueborn brother Robb is one of the major drives of Jon's character.

[Lord Cadwan]

Well.. what if Jon is the next Aegon the Conqueror with his two sister wives? Well... Jon has two sister that could be wives, Arya and Sansa.

I could totally see George doing this-the one way to totally subvert everything, be completely unexpected and make all fans hate him. It must now happen!

[WhitewolfStark]

I'd think given the original letter to his agent, that Arya/Jon would be the more likely ending posited. I've always viewed Sansa as an Elizabeth I analog. In the Eyrie, GRRM even has the whole Lysa-Littlefinger-Sansa triangle reflect back to the Catherine Parr-Thomas Seymour-Elizabeth Tudor triangle that happened at a similar age in Elizabeth I's life*. Likewise I see Sansa rising as a "virgin queen" of sorts, while she'll be traded in marriage many times over, eventually she'll break loose of the cycle and be a power of her own after having a traumatic childhood that helped shape her into steel.

*Catherine Parr was the last wife of Henry VIII, and had married him when he was a sick old man. She had a history in fact of marrying sick old men and essentially being a young nursemaid wife to them. She was also a little nutty and deeply Protestant reformist (which almost got her into trouble). Eventually Henry VIII died, and Catherine Parr essentially became the guardian of Edward VI and Elizabeth (Henry's two children). Edward VI was a sickly prince who persecuted the English Catholics with almost as much glee as Sweetrobin has for seeing "bad men fly". Littlefinger in this scenario is a combination of two men--who are brothers: Edward and Thomas Seymour (brothers to Henry VIII's third wife: Jane Seymour, and thus blood uncles to Edward VI). Edward was made Lord Protector of Edward VI, and Thomas married Catherine Parr on the rebound of Henry VIII's death--in fact Thomas and Catherine had been in love with one another the whole time, but Thomas had persuaded her to go through with the marriage to Henry VIII for "political reasons" (need I say more?).

Thomas Seymour now as the adoptive father to Elizabeth I through his marriage to Catherine Parr began taking... liberties with his access to the teenage Elizabeth I. Coming into her bedchambers early in the morning to wake her up while she wasn't dressed, kissing her, and essentially doing actions that nowadays would get his ass landed in prison. Heck he even once had Catherine help him in one of his games as he and Catherine cornered Elizabeth in the gardens one afternoon, had Catherine hold Elizabeth still while he took out his sword and slashed at her gown--tearing and ripping at it. Catherine Howard was at first blind to these actions, but when she became pregnant with his child and began to notice that they got increasingly obvious (as Thomas really began to ignore her), Catherine grew jealous and began accusing Elizabeth of stealing Thomas' affection.

Catherine then dies giving birth to a stillborn son, the actions of Thomas Seymour come to the notice of the other courtiers when he barges in to Edward VI's bedchambers one night, and the guards arrest him. Thomas had been planning a double wedding--Edward VI to Lady Jane Grey, and himself to Elizabeth. He planned to do this by abducting the King and conducting the two marriages in secret (and thus he'd hold the sway of England in his hand and pull it out of his brother's). This was treasonous as it was illegal to marry an heir to the throne without the express permission of the King, just as it was illegal to force the King himself to marry against his will. Edward VI eventually has both his uncles kille for various treasons before dieing of his lifelong illness.

That's actually where I see the Winged Knight plot going--Petyr thinks he's gathering noble hostages, but the knights will be made up of a few of Sansa's Stark cousins and all he's ensuring is that there are people around Sweetrobin who'll be Petyr's downfall when he aims to make his move, and it'll be not by Sansa's direct order, but Sweetrobin's that Littlefinger will die (with Sansa likely having made a few behind the scenes moves to ensure this happens), with Sweetrobin simply dieing of his illness not long thereafter, essentially living long enough to finally see a "bad man die" (I know he'd rather see them fly, but die in general is a decent substitute). Then after that Sansa declares her loyalty to Stannis/Aegon (either one is likely unless Rickon shows up) to put a claim on Winterfell, and brings the Vale out in force for him to sweep through the Riverlands. There'll likely be a near kidnapping done by the Mad Mouse which gets stopped, and Harry the Heir likely ends up dead, but that's my general guess at least.

Needless to say the characters more than easily line up, and I'd like to think that Sansa ends up being a "Queen" in the mold of an Elizabeth I than the kind of Queen she imagined in the beginning of the series. It would be a nice character arc for her to realize that being a Queen or even a Lady with power doesn't mean she has to marry and have babies ever after.