Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[Taenqyrhae]

I think you mean Rickard, who married his first cousin once removed (Rickard was a second cousin to his own children)--which adds a bit more distance than a Jon & Arya or Jon & Sansa straight first cousin marriage.

As for whether or not it is considered incestuous. That depends upon who you ask. Some cultures consider anything closer than third cousins to be incestuous, while other cultures promote first cousin marriages. Westeros though obviously doesn't seem to mind since it's been permitted in the past.

That is what I meant, brain fart.

Very few cultures have a problem with marriage of 2nd cousins, actually most of the world doesn't have a problem with 1st cousins marrying. All the laws against 1st cousins marrying in the USA were created during the eugenics movement, when we also did nice things like forcibly sterilizing poor people and minorities. There are still many states where it is completely legal.

[Grail King]

Mockingbirds have black markings on the wings but they are not completely black no. But like the designer said, Sansa needs to be able to find 'feathers' to make any sort of bird dress. I guess it does call back to Bloodraven as well and the whole magic angle of the series being represented by the Raven. Didn't someone point out that the necklace she wears is similar to the pattern the others made with the dead bodies of the wildings in episode 1. I guess it could represent many things.

Really!!!, I'll replay episode one later tonight, as I looked at it it was a hidden S within a circle I took it as her hiding her first or last name- Sansa Stark.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Agreed Wolf Lords Daughter. A lot of this does stem from the idea that Arya is aromantic, which is clearly not true. She's been regressed a few years but I think she was always meant to subvert the 'Tomboys are lesbians or asexual' trope. Notice the Kindly man telling her how beautiful she was becoming, how men would beggar themselves for her virginity? Of course, with no 5 year gap she is in a bit of a limbo. GRRM has made it clear he needed the 5 year gap mostly for Arya to grow up but if a 12 year old had to take on the world then so be it.

There is also a considerable trend of people thinking Arya is there as a tool for Sansa, that Sansa will get Nymeria to prove her identity, even worse that Arya will be in Nymeria at the time because she's dead. That Arya will come back and kill people to put Sansa in power is another one. Hopefully this outline kills that dead. That has never been the intention.

Exactly. If there is any argument that Arya is unlikely to have a romance that I think is reasonable, it's that she's probably be only 13 by the last book. But then Dany did love Drogo when she was 13/14, Sansa met Sandor when was 11 and is now fantasizing about him at 13, Lyanna met Rhaegar when she was 13 and the Mercy chapter makes me think that if GRRM did intend for Arya to have a romance after the five year gap, he'll keep it.

And yes! I find the idea that Sansa will get Nymeria ridiculous as well as the idea that Arya will be Sansa's personal bodyguard or Dany's QG. Arya is too important to play a secondary role to any other character.

Only thing? I posted something like 7 points, and several of them were posted in the original thread before the letter was released. I'm not sure I would say I have any favorite characters, but admittedly Sansa probably is one of the most interesting to me. I don't have a particular interest in her marrying any particular person, and I personally think Jon Snow is a pretty dark character and Sansa would be better off married to someone else. But that's definitely where I think the story is going.

And within the first page of this thread and even the first version of the thread, many posters have already given very sound arguments that rejected the other six points.

1. The Hedge Knight hypotosis is invalid because Sansa was enganed to a "Baratheon", Tyrell, Lannister, Arryn, and now Harry the Heir. The was no Arryn champion so no, the theory doesn't hold water.

2.I agree than Sansa and Jon's relationship is the coldest relationship among the Stark siblings, but among them, the coldest relationship means that they do care about each other. Sansa thinks it would be nice to see Jon again and Jon does think of Sansa along with the rest of his siblings when deciding to fight Ramsay.

3. Jon also rejected Winterfell. With both Bran and Rickon alive, he has no right to Winterfell, no more than Sansa. Plus, it would go completely against his character to try and take Winterfell for his brothers. Also, Arya has also repeatedly wanted to go back to Winterfell. Perhaps Jon should just marry both Arya and Sansa. After all, he's a Targ.

4.Umm......Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark didn't get together to make Jon?

5.So? Jon isn't a knight and Sansa long ago ditched the idea of marrying a knight.

6.I already answered this.

7.And? Cousins can marry, but the Sansa and Jon in the books GRRM wrote would find the idea of marrying each other icky.

Oh, I've no problem with Arya hitting puberty, falling in love, having sex etc. But I'm not sure whether this whole 'doomed incest love' between Arya and Jon can happen now, considering that Arya is away, and Jon is surrounded by much more mature and attractive women (Melisandre & Val).

But I'm not opposed to the notion that Arya could become Jon's queen at the very end of the series, as a sort of second Lyanna. The question that remains is would the person Arya is about to become want such a thing. I'm not sure about that.

Well, I think Arya looks like a Lyanna 2.0 and by the time she hits puberty will be as beautiful as Sansa, Dany, and pre-maiming Myrcella. While I'm certain Jon won't attracted to her, it's not out of the realm of possibility many others will find her very beautiful.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, in the Mercy chapter Arya seems to show off her own body - although not necessarily her own face - and people seem to find her very attractive despite the fact that she is still only eleven years old and does not have the body shape of a girl in her puberty (it's the sailors she meets, her landlord, the dwarf playing Tyrion, and, of course, Raff).

But the problem with her is that she is very much training to use her attractiveness and her sexuality as a means to get what she wants - and to get close to the people she kills.

I'm not sure if Arya can keep or regain a normal psyche or enter into a 'normal relationship' even after she leaves the Faceless Men (if she does that). Remembering Arya Stark does not mean she remembers or knows how to be a 'normal girl' or a 'normal woman' again.

And I've to say after closely rereading Mercy again, the murder of Raff is really a very cold-blooded and calculated affair. It seems to me that Arya is happy enough with her lifestyle and way to controlled and restrained to allow herself to fall in love with anyone. For that to happen, she would first have to distance herself from this assassin lifestyle she has, and unfortunately part of that is to fake emotions or to go through them in your fake persona rather than your true self.

[Isobel Harper]

Exactly. If there is any argument that Arya is unlikely to have a romance that I think is reasonable, it's that she's probably be only 13 by the last book. But then Dany did love Drogo when she was 13/14, Sansa met Sandor when was 11 and is now fantasizing about him at 13, Lyanna met Rhaegar when she was 13 and the Mercy chapter makes me think that if GRRM did intend for Arya to have a romance after the five year gap, he'll keep it.

And yes! I find the idea that Sansa will get Nymeria ridiculous as well as the idea that Arya will be Sansa's personal bodyguard or Dany's QG. Arya is too important to play a secondary role to any other character.

Agree.

1. The Hedge Knight hypotosis is invalid because Sansa was enganed to a "Baratheon", Tyrell, Lannister, Arryn, and now Harry the Heir. The was no Arryn champion so no, the theory doesn't hold water.

Arryn is mentioned. Egg speaks approvingly of Hardying when he appears and mentions a melee Maidenpool he attended the year before, where Haryding championed Lord Arryn. (See thread in my signature.) In said thread, I do mention Brienne is more likely to be her "champion" or possibly Jon (Targaryen), though neither in the romantic sense.

3. Jon also rejected Winterfell. With both Bran and Rickon alive, he has no right to Winterfell, no more than Sansa. Plus, it would go completely against his character to try and take Winterfell for his brothers. Also, Arya has also repeatedly wanted to go back to Winterfell. Perhaps Jon should just marry both Arya and Sansa. After all, he's a Targ.

This might be a little off topic, and I know what you meant, but I can see Jon, Arya, and Sansa being a sort of "Aegon and his sisters" 2.0, but not in the romantic sense with the three cooperating for control and/or ultimate peace in Winterfell towards the end of the series. Think "3 heads of the direwolf" the Ice to the 3 heads of the dragon's Fire.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Arryn is mentioned. Egg speaks approvingly of Hardying when he appears and mentions a melee Maidenpool he attended the year before, where Haryding championed Lord Arryn. (See thread in my signature.) In said thread, I do mention Brienne is more likely to be her "champion" or possibly Jon (Targaryen), though neither in the romantic sense.

Hmm...not really convinced on the foreshadowing but I definitely think Brienne will help Sansa and be her champion of sorts, just like how she was Cat's champion before Cat's death.

This might be a little off topic, and I know what you meant, but I can see Jon, Arya, and Sansa being a sort of "Aegon and his sisters" 2.0, but not in the romantic sense with the three cooperating for control and/or ultimate peace in Winterfell towards the end of the series. Think "3 heads of the direwolf" the Ice to the 3 heads of the dragon's Fire.

But.....what about Bran? :crying:

He's very important too (perhaps more important than Sansa), a freaking demigod, and I think he will be more instrumental to the restoration of House Stark than either Sansa or Arya.

[Isobel Harper]

Hmm...not really convinced on the foreshadowing but I definitely think Brienne will help Sansa and be her champion of sorts, just like how she was Cat's champion before Cat's death.

But.....what about Bran? :crying:

He's very important too (perhaps more important than Sansa), a freaking demigod, and I think he will be more instrumental to the restoration of House Stark than either Sansa or Arya.

Yes, Bran is a possible alternative to Sansa. He seems to be the strongest warg and, unlike Sansa, still has his direwolf.

[LongRider]

What did the Ashford Tourney 'foreshadow'? Oh, yeah. Nothing!

Five books later and the story comes down to an event in a story many fans haven't even read, or, 3 pages of a sales pitch for a story that "grew in the telling" and is so fundamentally changed that the outline and actual written published story resemble each other very, very slightly?

Why am I not seeing it? Oh yeah, because it's not there.

Sansa and Brienne, are what now, the fandom tandem bicycle?

Oh hell, why not.

edt- comma splice

[OldGimletEye]

What did the Ashford Tourney 'foreshadow'? Oh, yeah. Nothing!

I'm of the general opinion that any theory that tries to use the Ashford Tourney as its starting point is probably a bunch of crap.

[Mad Madam Mim]

I'm of the general opinion that any theory that tries to use the Ashford Tourney as its starting point is probably a bunch of crap.

:lmao: I'm also of the general opinion that any theory that uses a letter written over 20 years ago suggesting a romantic relationship between Jon and A DIFFERENT CHARACTER as evidence, is also probably a load of crap. Can we stick to the actual BOOKS please people :bang:

[OldGimletEye]

:lmao: I'm also of the general opinion that any theory that uses a letter written over 20 years ago suggesting a romantic relationship between Jon and A DIFFERENT CHARACTER as evidence, is also probably a load of crap. Can we stick to the actual BOOKS please people :bang:

Particularly by guy who has described himself as being a "gardener" rather than an "architect". Twenty years ago, GRRM had a clean slate. At present, he does not.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

:lmao: I'm also of the general opinion that any theory that uses a letter written over 20 years ago suggesting a romantic relationship between Jon and A DIFFERENT CHARACTER as evidence, is also probably a load of crap. Can we stick to the actual BOOKS please people :bang:

Its an Arya plotline proposed, it MUST relate to Sansa really, it MUST ;)

Don't you see how the lack of a strong relationship between two characters at present is evidence that they are destined to be? ;)

I really wish people would just come out and say they ship Sansa/Throne. Its honest.

[Lord Varys]

Catelyn is still alive, and Brienne is 'her woman' now.

[LongRider]

Particularly by guy who has described himself as being "gardener" rather than an "architect". Twenty years ago, GRRM had a clean slate. At present, he does not.

OMG! This foreshadows that Sansa will be the new Queen of Highgarden! Her dreams of Loras will come true after all.

Thanks OGE for that delicious hint. I feel better now.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Its an Arya plotline proposed, it MUST relate to Sansa really, it MUST ;)

Don't you see how the lack of a strong relationship between two characters at present is evidence that they are destined to be? ;)

I really wish people would just come out and say they ship Sansa/Throne. Its honest.

:lol: It must! It makes perfect sense that we should discard five books of two characters that barely thinking about each other (which is now apparently evidence of serious sexual attraction you know :leer:) in favour of a letter written over 20 years (that even then is related to a different character) by an author who admits that he has no interest in planning before he writes.

This thread is clutching at straws but there are no straws to grasp onto.

OMG! This foreshadows that Sansa will be the new Queen of Highgarden! Her dreams of Loras will come true after all.

Thanks OGE for that delicious hint. I feel better now.

They can plait each others hair and go shoe shopping together :love:

[OldGimletEye]

I really wish people would just come out and say they ship Sansa/Throne. Its honest.

I'm a Sansa fan, I wouldn't want her to be near that damn thing. After everything concludes, the monarchs of Westeros are likely to have a lot of work in front of them. I don't see any happiness in it for anyone that has any sense of duty. Unlike Mel Brooks' version of Louis XVI, I don't think it will be "Good To Be The King" (or the Queen as the case may be).

[LongRider]

They can plait each others hair and go shoe shopping together :love:

AWESOME!!!

[OldGimletEye]

OMG! This foreshadows that Sansa will be the new Queen of Highgarden! Her dreams of Loras will come true after all.

Thanks OGE for that delicious hint. I feel better now.

I can't believe I didn't pick up up on this foreshadowing! I feel like such a moron. There it was all the time, right in front of me! I feel like, like, Dunk The Lunk, as thick as a castle wall.

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~

I really wish people would just come out and say they ship Sansa/Throne. Its honest.

I'm a Sansa fan, I wouldn't want her to be near that damn thing. After everything concludes, the monarchs of Westeros are likely to have a lot of work in front of them. I don't see any happiness in it for anyone that has any sense of duty. Unlike Mel Brooks' version of Louis XVI, I don't think it will be "Good To Be The King" (or the Queen as the case may be).

Agree with both posts. Sansa as queen seems to be the backbone of many, many ships, as long as her intended ship will be the King of Iron Throne and the World! muhahahaw!

I can't believe I didn't pick up up on this foreshadowing! I feel like such a moron. There it was all the time, right in front of me! I feel like, like, Dunk The Lunk, as thick as a castle wall.

Now, now OGE, don't feel so bad. We're here to help each other see the light of the true Sansa ships as Chance the Gardener, I mean GRRM, intended.

[Cas Stark]

LOL, I don't think he will do it, given the changes to the story, but I have to admit that it's obviously not as purely crackpot as most people thought.