Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[LongRider]

Arya is not an assassin. She has begun an apprenticeship, not one she has completed.

Anyone remember that Buffy episode Anne? Buffy has killed Angel, her mother kicks her out of the house, and she's kicked out school so she runs to LA. She is alone and has no one. She meets a girl who wants to join a cult. Buffy finds out the cult is not what it seems. She goes to this place and it turns out its a portal to hell where young people work until they are old and are spat back out to die. The demons force them to forget their names, insisting that they are 'no one' or they will be punished. The demon goes down the line so everyone recites that their name is 'No One' until Buffy says 'I'm Buffy, The Vampire Slayer and you are?' and proceeds to destroy the place. That was 1998, I wonder if GRRM saw that? Anyway, it reminds me very much of the Faceless Men. The Demon even takes his human face off to reveal the monster beneath with the quip 'Do you know how long it took to glue that thing on?' Its so eerily similar I often wonder if Arya's time with them will end with an homage to that and she tears the place up.

I love this! Remember when the FM had their meeting and Arya was the cupbearer? They made a point of the FM not knowing the person selected for death? Arya soon after killed Daeron. While she didn't know him she knew the NW and understood he was a deserter, so she wasn't neutral to him like the FM want their kills to be.

Yeah, she got the milk treatment after, but in the Mercy chapter

She kills Raff, who she knows

So twice now she has violated of their guiding principles. No one cannot keep denying Arya. I hope she had Needle with her so she can desert and leave from there, if it comes to that.

[Mladen]

Jon sees Arya/Sansa as his siblings but those feelings could evolve into something else once he finds out that they are his cousins rather than his sisters. It may not happen overnight or it may just be an automatic/instant attraction. GRRM in his draft letter had Jon and Arya having romantic feelings for each other even when they thought they were siblings. So if GRRM means for Jon and Arya to develop feeings for each, I think he can find (write) a plausible/logical explanation for it. In many cultures cousins are raised in close proximity to one another (maybe even in the same household) and in most cases see themselves as siblings as kids and then once they reach adulthood get married. At some point between them being kids and puberty they realize that they are set up to be married by society/family and they develop romantic feelings for one another. This is not uncommon or unheard of.

The issue here is not that they are cousins. I am aware of R+L=J and its implications. I just don't find a plausible way that Jon's emotions can mutate. We already have an incest in the story and we know that the dynamics between Jaime and Cersei and the one between Jon and Stark girls is practically incomparable. The emotions can evolve but you will need quite the huge leap to do it. And not in one POV, but the two of them. While being perfectly aware that at at the end of 5th book (out of 7), these characters have strong sibling feelings for each other.

So, them being cousins is not the issue. Them seeing their whole life as siblings, feeling so far in the story as siblings actually does.

[Pod The Rod]

The problem in this comparison isn't in the level of closeness, genetically speaking, but how Jon feels about different women. The difference between Dany and Stark sisters is that Jon has grown as their brother, he feels as their brother, loves them as their brother. When it comes to Dany, we have none of it. Not only that he doesn't know Dany, but even when he meets her, she will be stranger to him. Stark girls are someone whom he looked as sisters his whole life. In comparison, again, a question that nobody can answer on this thread, do you all believe Jaime ever felt for Cersei what Jon felt for Arya?

Thank you, Mladen, for displaying reading comprehension.

[teej6]

Thank you, Mladen, for displaying reading comprehension.

And thanks for your rude remark. People can disagree with you and that doesn't mean their reading comprehension skills are any less than yours.

[teej6]

The issue here is not that they are cousins. I am aware of R+L=J and its implications. I just don't find a plausible way that Jon's emotions can mutate. We already have an incest in the story and we know that the dynamics between Jaime and Cersei and the one between Jon and Stark girls is practically incomparable. The emotions can evolve but you will need quite the huge leap to do it. And not in one POV, but the two of them. While being perfectly aware that at at the end of 5th book (out of 7), these characters have strong sibling feelings for each other.

So, them being cousins is not the issue. Them seeing their whole life as siblings, feeling so far in the story as siblings actually does.

Again, I think those feelings can evolve and GRRM did write his initial draft with Jon and Arya falling in love while they still thought they were siblings. I don't think that them seeing themselves as siblings up until this point in the story is an impediment.

[Pod The Rod]

And thanks for your rude remark. People can disagree with you and that doesn't mean their reading comprehension skills are any less than yours.

No, but it does mean that they say things in response to my posts that blatantly ignore what I actually wrote.

[Mladen]

Again, I think those feelings can evolve and GRRM did write his initial draft with Jon and Arya falling in love while they still thought they were siblings. I don't think that them seeing themselves as siblings up until this point in the story is an impediment.

Actually, we have no idea what their dynamics was. We know they thought they were siblings, but we don't know whether the extent of their sibling love was the same as it is in the published material. That is the problem. Because we have no idea how those Jon and Arya were supposed to be. You all assume they are the same even though all characters are significantly differ. That is why this is blatant disregard of published material for the sake of two, three pages of the unpublished ideas. And that is why it is so nonsensical.

[teej6]

Actually, we have no idea what their dynamics was. We know they thought they were siblings, but we don't know whether the extent of their sibling love was the same as it is in the published material. That is the problem. Because we have no idea how those Jon and Arya were supposed to be. You all assume they are the same even though all characters are significantly differ. That is why this is blatant disregard of published material for the sake of two, three pages of the unpublished ideas. And that is why it is so nonsensical.

I don't see why they should have felt any less of sisterly/brotherly love for each in GRRM's initial draft than they do in the books. If they felt conflicted (as stated) about their romantic feelings that indicates they were close as siblings. My argument doesn't depend on Jon and Arya being the exact same characters in the draft and in the books but instead that despite the knowledge that they were siblings in the draft, GRRM had envisioned Jon and Arya as falling in love. I am not disregarding the books in anyway with this new information, I'm just saying (like I said earlier in this thread or another) that I recognized hints of a Jon/Arya eventual romantic relationship when I first read AGOT. And I do feel it could still very well happen and unlike you don't consider it impossible or 'nonsensical'.

[Mladen]

I don't see why they should have felt any less of sisterly/brotherly love for each in GRRM's initial draft than they do in the books. If they felt conflicted (as stated) about their romantic feelings that indicates they were close as siblings. My argument doesn't depend on Jon and Arya being the exact same characters in the draft and in the books but instead that despite the knowledge that they were siblings in the draft, GRRM had envisioned Jon and Arya as falling in love. I am not disregarding the books in anyway with this new information, I'm just saying (like I said earlier in this thread or another) that I recognized hints of a Jon/Arya eventual romantic relationship when I first read AGOT. And I do feel it could still very well happen and unlike you don't consider it impossible or 'nonsensical'.

You recognized the hints of romance in the first book? Like, seriously? Well, that is the area I simply won't go now. Or ever, since it goes too much in analyzing posters rather than series. Just to be clear, in my opinion, there is no hint of romantic relationship between these two, unless of course the healthy sibling dynamics is called romantic now.

I simply don't see any way in which their relationship, the one from published material can believably transformed into romantic. Again, and again, the argument people so successfully avoid, we see difference in how Jaime saw Cersei and how Jon feels for Arya.

[Northbound3.0]

Well, the new information released has definitely caused a bit of a shit sandwich and it seems everyone has taken a bite. It's definitely great for the boards.

The main issue I have with the idea, even with the new information; is how much the series has diverged from the original plans. It can be said that the changes Jon and Sansa have gone through and the feelings they feel toward each other(yes they both describe themselves as siblings) would prevent such a union. If im being honest, I dont wish to see one either.

However, I can understand why others are making a case for a union between the two. For me it's quite simple. Despite how much the series has progressed, the main plot points of the series, seem relatively intact; Dany's arc, Stark/Lannister contempt and the arc with the Others...so Martin hasn't turned from the major points of his outline. One of these ideas, was a relationship between a Stark girl and Jon Snow; this can not be disputed. Just based on the three pages we saw, a decent portion of this was devoted to the idea. The intent, was there. The thought/opinion that Martin wouldn't do this, is not vaild in MHO and it seems to be based on personal feelings about the subject. I say this for one reason alone.

Despite, what these documents show and the way the series has since played out; we still have an unfinished product. None of us can really say, one way or an other; what is going on in GRRM's mind, nor how he will finish the series. He can just as easily write a Jon/Sansa union, just as easily as not writing one.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Fine. My personal feelings are that as a reader of the series, I would be less invested in it if I have to read about Jon's sexual feelings for Sansa, and Sansa's fantasies about him. They're both major POV characters so it'd be unavoidable.

I have stopped reading series because I disliked a character, relationship, or plot. Jon/Sansa would get me to stop reading ASOIAF, not just because of the incest, but because there is nothing that GRRM could write at this point to get me to accept the relationship. I'd probably still watch the TV show but my prediction is that it would unfold awkwardly on GoT as well.

Now, GRRM is going to do his thing as the author of the series. And as a reader, I've got my own choices to make as well. :)

[Mladen]

snip

Despite, what these documents show and the way the series has since played out; we still have an unfinished product. None of us can really say, one way or an other; what is going on in GRRM's mind, nor how he will finish the series. He can just as easily write a Jon/Sansa union, just as easily as not writing one.

You may have a point, but for me, this is strictly narrative issue. Sansa and Jon are my favorites in terms of male and female favorites, and I see so many similarities between them. But, IMO, there is no reasonable way to mutate Sansa's and Jon's emotions towards each other in that direction. Especially, not this late in the story.

[Northbound3.0]

Fine. My personal feelings are that as a reader of the series, I would be less invested in it if I have to read about Jon's sexual feelings for Sansa, and Sansa's fantasies about him. They're both major POV characters so it'd be unavoidable.

I have stopped reading series because I disliked a character, relationship, or plot. Jon/Sansa would get me to stop reading ASOIAF, not just because of the incest, but because there is nothing that GRRM could write at this point to get me to accept the relationship. I'd probably still watch the TV show but my prediction is that it would unfold awkwardly on GoT as well.

Now, GRRM is going to do his thing as the author of the series. And as a reader, I've got my own choices to make as well. :)

Well stated. I personally do not wish to see it. I hope it doesn't happen, hell I doubt it happens. I think it would be counter, to what we've read in the text. But who the heck knows. I don't know, if I'd stop reading though.

[Northbound3.0]

You may have a point, but for me, this is strictly narrative issue. Sansa and Jon are my favorites in terms of male and female favorites, and I see so many similarities between them. But, IMO, there is no reasonable way to mutate Sansa's and Jon's emotions towards each other in that direction. Especially, not this late in the story.

I agree with this whole heartedly! It would completely go against what he has written, thus far. Despite how akward it would feel to read; trying to accomplish it with two books, would feel very rushed and not authentic.

The only gem I could agree with the "shippers" of this union on; is the foreshadowing of Slynt's beheading by Jon, after Sansa wished a hero would do the same. But a hero can just as easily be a brother, as a lover.

[Light a wight tonight]

Snow Wight. Sansa always did love fairytales. Maybe she'll end up with one after all. :P

But, but, she already married one of the dwarfs.

[Isobel Harper]

But, but, she already married one of the dwarfs.

Instead of her Prince Charming, she got one of the dwarfs. Holy crap, I just now realized the parallel to the fairytale!

[UtherSnow]

Flamin' Nora!! 1993 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed in the world since then. The moment GRRM changed from an intended trilogy, the whole game changes.

Do you want a 'Dallas Shower' scenario? To retract all that had happened over several series, to bring back a character killed off, who just happened to be a fan-fave.... It was total BOLLOCKS then, to re-tread the same ground, with this series of books, wastes all that GRRM has written in the series we've been reading, that would still make it utter BOLLOCKS now.

Going back is not going forward.

[Reynestorm]

Instead of her Prince Charming, she got one of the dwarfs. Holy crap, I just now realized the parallel to the fairytale!

*patiently awaits Littlefinger to eat a poisoned apple*

[Isobel Harper]

*patiently awaits Littlefinger to eat a poisoned apple*

Tyrion is even associated with mines - Lannister gold mines. And Sansa is also a type of apple. (See also Idunn parallel if your familiar with Ragnarok theories.)

[teej6]

You recognized the hints of romance in the first book? Like, seriously? Well, that is the area I simply won't go now. Or ever, since it goes too much in analyzing posters rather than series. Just to be clear, in my opinion, there is no hint of romantic relationship between these two, unless of course the healthy sibling dynamics is called romantic now.

I simply don't see any way in which their relationship, the one from published material can believably transformed into romantic. Again, and again, the argument people so successfully avoid, we see difference in how Jaime saw Cersei and how Jon feels for Arya.

Yes, seriously, I did pick up hints/foreshadowing of Arya possibly being Jon's queen in the future from reading AGOT. I don't see why that's so hard to believe especially if you recognized that Jon was not Ned's son. And I don't quite understand what you mean by "since it goes too much in analyzing posters rather than series." IMO the Jamie/Cersie relationship has no bearing on the Jon/Arya relationship. Jon can see Arya as his sister well into the next book and GRRM can still have them fall in love in the end. This is just a theory like any other and within the realm of possibility. Anyway, I'm done debating with you on this and let's just agree to disagree.