Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[Taenqyrhae]

Flamin' Nora!! 1993 was 22 years ago. A lot has changed in the world since then. The moment GRRM changed from an intended trilogy, the whole game changes.

Do you want a 'Dallas Shower' scenario? To retract all that had happened over several series, to bring back a character killed off, who just happened to be a fan-fave.... It was total BOLLOCKS then, to re-tread the same ground, with this series of books, wastes all that GRRM has written in the series we've been reading, that would still make it utter BOLLOCKS now.

Going back is not going forward.

What dead character are we talking about bringing back? Nobody is talking about retracting what has already happened in the series, in fact several people had sensed that a Jon/Arya or Jon/Sansa marriage was being foreshadowed long before the letter was made public - this is v2 of my original thread where I had proposed that Jon was going to marry Sansa, and it was not based on any new information at all.

[Taenqyrhae]

Instead of her Prince Charming, she got one of the dwarfs. Holy crap, I just now realized the parallel to the fairytale!

Except Prince Charming is going to be going into a deep sleep, and probably awakened by a witch instead of being put there by one.

[Isobel Harper]

Just a brief add. Yes, I think Jon/Arya/Sansa's thoughts add the their fond memories of their siblings to make their characters more real. I would remember my siblings fondly too in a similar circumstance as these characters, if not more. However, he was probably planning on revealing his original plot to the reader populus. He adds just enough so that the re-readers will read these fond memories as, "Wait, he was originally planning.... :uhoh:" Again, just a thought.

[Isobel Harper]

Except Prince Charming is going to be going into a deep sleep, and probably awakened by a witch instead of being put there by one.

You mean Jon? I have no thoughts on these Jon/sister-cousins really, but I think GRRM set Sansa up as the "deconstructer" of romantic fairytales. Her Beast (Sandor) is truly a beast and this beast treats her cruelly. (He makes fun of how Ned looked when he died, he is cruel to her, he puts a knife to her throat in the middle of a war) and her "prince" (i.e. husband) is a dwarf instead of Prince Charming. It would align with this theme she's going through to have her "hero" be her brother ("brotherish person"). But I think her savior will be a knight, but a woman. The person who saves her and cares for her well-being will not be someone who wishes to wed-and-bed her.

ETA: How did I miss my 666th post? :devil:

[UtherSnow]

What dead character are we talking about bringing back?

In Dallas, the show brought a character back who'd been killed several seasons before. It played out with this guy emerging from a shower, and dismissing all that had gone before as a dream. It was utter bollocks. It made no sense. All it was done for was to boost ratings.

I can remember my Mum going crazy over this. It's one of the only times I heard her swear, and she really went to town. That was so rare it sticks in my memory even now.

Once GRRM started to get into the territory where he was changing his plans, it's like the butterfly effect he's mentioned on occasion if he goes back just to return to the original plan. We are where we are now, No going back. Let's move forward. If the story unfolds satisfactorily, all well and good. Doing U-turns? No on. Performing a 'Dallas Shower Scene' really would take the biscuit.

More characters are in play now. Each has a dynamic that changes the course of the story as it is now.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

'Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too'

Mind blown.

I see the foreshadowing now,how could I have missed it? Jon dies and comes back as the Ghost of the Pillsbury Doughboy! And right on cue, Arya punches him the belly. What a literary genius that GRRM is.

:bowdown:

Wow, do you have a new outline? That seems legit!

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I'm sorry, but I find the "Outline Arya is actually book Sansa" argument rubbish, especially since the only thing the OP is basing this on is his own wishes for his favorite character and that Sansa married Tyrion. In the original plan, Arya was supposed to escape KL with the help of Ned, go back to Winterfell which is burned, escapes to the Wall with her mother and Bran, falls in love with Jon, and continues North with her mother and fights using Needle. Later Tyrion begins to love Arya. Now which aspect is similar to Sansa's story is similar to Outline Arya's? Tyrion lusts for Sansa, he never loves her, especially not enough to fight Jon over it. If it's that Outline Arya is involved in a romance, which some may find inconceivable for book Arya so therefore Outline Arya is now Sansa, think again. Arya's just a child, but she's already had a crush on Gendry. It's entirely possible that Arya may fall in love with someone, even in the books we have now.

And if Jon does fall in love with a Stark girl, why would it be Sansa, especially when GRRM planned for him to fall in love with Arya? If GRRM does go on with the Jon falling for a Stark girl storyline (I really, really, really, hope he doesn't), it will be with Arya and I'll probably have to throw up 20 times while reading the books. Considering that Arya has Needle even in the outline, I'm willing to bet Arya and Jon were still exceptionally close there. Also, the theme was never Jon falling for a Stark girl, it was Jon falling for Arya. That said, I highly doubt he will still go that route now. He's changed Arya and Jon a great deal and it would be totally against their characters. I definitely agree that Jon always has and always will love Arya more than anyone else in the world, including any future love interest and Arya will always love Jon more than anyone else, something we can get out of the books, not some outline form 1993 and the fandom's wishes.And Sansa does think of Jon as her brother, In her last chapter, Sansa thinks of Jon as her brother and that it would be sweet to see him again. I think those in favor of J+S are clutching at straws, nothing more.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, I don't think that Jon loves Arya all that much in the books. Arya is on his mind because he learned that she was still alive, supposed to come to him, and (supposedly) suffering at the hands of Ramsay. That's why he thinks of her in the moment of his death. He knows he has failed her, and will not be able to save her or avenge Stannis.

Note that George has taken care to circumvent all reunions for the Starks since ACoK. Cat did not go back to Winterfell to see Bran again, Arya did not reunite with Robb & Catelyn before their deaths, Bran and the Reeds did not go to Castle Black to meet with Jon Snow, Arya did not talk to Samwell to find out that Jon is now Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and his best friend. And so on.

This clearly is a hint that the Starks are not exactly destined to spend all that much time with each other yet to develop romantic feelings for each other. Does this completely rule out that something like that is going to happen later on? No. But it is much less likely, as this whole Tyrion-Arya-Jon-thing was supposed to happen in the first novel, and be a part of the whole series from there.

I doubt that Arya could reasonably reach an age in which she actually falls deeply in love. The girl is still only 11, after all.

[LongRider]

Okay, let me try this again because I am beginning to feel misunderstood:

You have one nuclear bomb, you give it to a friend for safekeeping. He takes that nuke and uses it to nuke you off the planet.

Now imagine being the grandson of a paranoid lunatic who once got stabbed literally in the back and you have a nuke and a friend. Will the scenario above occur to you in your justified(?) paranoid ramblings?

Click 'yes' for the obvious answer.

So will you give that nuke away or will you keep it and make sure that no ever, ever, ever gets their grabby hands on it?

Click 'keep' for the obvious answer.

Now imagine in place of a nuke a person through whom you could directly control about the half of Westeros because... yes, you could. (And yes, if push to came to shove people in the North might choose the Stark in Winterfell over the dragon king in the South. And that possibility would also certainly occur to Jon.)

See, it's not what Sansa can do for him but what could be done against him by using her and preventing that in a very effective way. The nuke in your hands is the one that is not in the hands of your enemies. And that has a lot of political worth.

Huh?

Sansa's hymen---the nuclear option.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Agreed Wolf Lords Daughter. A lot of this does stem from the idea that Arya is aromantic, which is clearly not true. She's been regressed a few years but I think she was always meant to subvert the 'Tomboys are lesbians or asexual' trope. Notice the Kindly man telling her how beautiful she was becoming, how men would beggar themselves for her virginity? Of course, with no 5 year gap she is in a bit of a limbo. GRRM has made it clear he needed the 5 year gap mostly for Arya to grow up but if a 12 year old had to take on the world then so be it.

There is also a considerable trend of people thinking Arya is there as a tool for Sansa, that Sansa will get Nymeria to prove her identity, even worse that Arya will be in Nymeria at the time because she's dead. That Arya will come back and kill people to put Sansa in power is another one. Hopefully this outline kills that dead. That has never been the intention.

Actually, I don't think that Jon loves Arya all that much in the books. Arya is on his mind because he learned that she was still alive, supposed to come to him, and (supposedly) suffering at the hands of Ramsay. That's why he thinks of her in the moment of his death. He knows he has failed her, and will not be able to save her or avenge Stannis.

Note that George has taken care to circumvent all reunions for the Starks since ACoK. Cat did not go back to Winterfell to see Bran again, Arya did not reunite with Robb & Catelyn before their deaths, Bran and the Reeds did not go to Castle Black to meet with Jon Snow, Arya did not talk to Samwell to find out that Jon is now Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and his best friend. And so on.

This clearly is a hint that the Starks are not exactly destined to spend all that much time with each other yet to develop romantic feelings for each other. Does this completely rule out that something like that is going to happen later on? No. But it is much less likely, as this whole Tyrion-Arya-Jon-thing was supposed to happen in the first novel, and be a part of the whole series from there.

I doubt that Arya could reasonably reach an age in which she actually falls deeply in love. The girl is still only 11, after all.

Arya was the last person he said goodbye to before he left Winterfell, she was the only one he gave a parting gift to. He thinks of her when he meets Ygritte and thinks of her when he sees Alys' defiance. His last act is to arrange for her rescue as part of the bargain with Mance. I thought he was meant to be neutral? He's very close to breaking his vow for her and gets around it by getting others to do it. He has no such consideration for 'Lady Lannister'. We are clearly meant to infer a special bond between them and as much as it squicks me, the signs are there in the first book to the conclusion originally planned. You could say they continue to be there:

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

She pays a lot of attention to Jon Snow over her other siblings, she misses Jon in particular.

[LongRider]

Isobel Harper, on 05 Feb 2015 - 5:01 PM, said:

Snow Wight. Sansa always did love fairytales. Maybe she'll end up with one after all. :P

But, but, she already married one of the dwarfs.

:lmao:

[Mladen]

There is also a considerable trend of people thinking Arya is there as a tool for Sansa, that Sansa will get Nymeria to prove her identity, even worse that Arya will be in Nymeria at the time because she's dead. That Arya will come back and kill people to put Sansa in power is another one. Hopefully this outline kills that dead. That has never been the intention.

Hmmm, could you please elaborate "Arya as a tool for Sansa"? I mean, I have rarely seen what you talk about and I am on most Sansa threads. Although I don't believe in generalizations, I can say that there is an idea that two sisters might work together when they meet. Getting Nymeria was never an option, Nymeria is Arya's direwolf. I am guilty for particularly nonsensical theory back then 2 years ago, but I have abandoned it when I got sober :) Plus, Sansa has rather distinctive look, many people met her. It would be much harder for her to hide who she is, than it was to Arya.

[Northbound3.0]

I am guilty for particularly nonsensical theory back then 2 years ago, but I have abandoned it when I got sober :)

Congrats? You are a better man, than I. Jameson is my friend.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Hmmm, could you please elaborate "Arya as a tool for Sansa"? I mean, I have rarely seen what you talk about and I am on most Sansa threads. Although I don't believe in generalizations, I can say that there is an idea that two sisters might work together when they meet. Getting Nymeria was never an option, Nymeria is Arya's direwolf. I am guilty for particularly nonsensical theory back then 2 years ago, but I have abandoned it when I got sober :) Plus, Sansa has rather distinctive look, many people met her. It would be much harder for her to hide who she is, than it was to Arya.

That Sansa is destined for power as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms or Queen in the North and Arya will be scuttling about in the background assassinating Sansa's enemies to keep her there. Insinuating that Arya's purpose and character is just to kill and nothing more. While its still possible they will work together it will likely be on an equal footing. Arya is not there as a prop for Sansa, Sansa is not there as a prop for Arya. They each have their own journey.

[Mladen]

Congrats? You are a better man, than I. Jameson is my friend.

Thank you, but I get uncomfortable every time when I remember that... It was so idiotic :)

That Sansa is destined for power as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms or Queen in the North and Arya will be scuttling about in the background assassinating Sansa's enemies to keep her there. Insinuating that Arya's purpose and character is just to kill and nothing more. While its still possible they will work together it will likely be on an equal footing. Arya is not there as a prop for Sansa, Sansa is not there as a prop for Arya. They each have their own journey.

I agree. Now, I would argue that some sort of cooperation is destined and that girls will do what they do best. Does that mean Arya will be clearing Sansa's path by killing? Absolutely not. At the end, to be completely honest, I don't understand entire "Sansa as Queen of everything under the sun" theories.

[Silverscream]

I doubt that Arya could reasonably reach an age in which she actually falls deeply in love. The girl is still only 11, after all.

I don't understand why people keep bringing up Arya's age as proof he changed the love triangle (or at least the Jon/Arya aspect of it) or that Arya would never be able to fall in love. Up until somewhat over a decade ago, GRRM still had plans for a five year gap that would push Arya's age up to 16+, which is a perfectly acceptable age for romance for him. If anything, this quote from him makes way more sense knowing that a romance subplot was in the works for her:

George mentioned that he felt really silly about that planned 5 year jump. He imagined it originally going something like Jon sitting on the Wall going “Well, it’s been 5 fairly quiet years since I’ve been Lord Commander. But I’m starting to think that’ll pick up now…” and realized that the adults wouldn’t wait in their plot lines for Arya to hit puberty.

Wait, I thought the point of the five year gap was for Arya to learn Faceless Man skills in Braavos? But I'm thinking now that Arya being older was always just as important, and not just because of the Mercy scene. GRRM's spent a lot of time in the books setting up men finding Arya attractive. If GRRM kept the Jon/Arya plot going into the current versions of the books, he was never change his mind or replace her with Sansa just because she's currently too young. 11-12 year old Arya as endgame was never planned. And tbh, I've always seen little minor hints that make me think he was going with Jon/Arya in the books (the Ygritte/Arya Gendry/Jon connections, Jon remembering her kissing him as part of his bittersweet memories, Ghost and Nymeria's relationship being emphasized while not having them interact with the other wolves, etc), whereas I've never seen any that point to Jon/Sansa, which makes me think it's unlikely that he changed his mind on which Stark sister Jon would fall for over simply removing that plot line all together.

Also, knowing what we know now certainly makes this exchange rather amusing in hindsight:

Granny: Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?

George_RR_Martin: “Say something to the reader?” No, I’m just reporting how the characters feel. <g> Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader. [source]

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I don't understand why people keep bringing up Arya's age as proof he changed the love triangle (or at least the Jon/Arya aspect of it) or that Arya would never be able to fall in love. Up until somewhat over a decade ago, GRRM still had plans for a five year gap that would push Arya's age up to 16+, which is a perfectly acceptable age for romance for him. If anything, this quote from him makes way more sense knowing that a romance subplot was in the works for her:

Wait, I thought the point of the five year gap was for Arya to learn Faceless Man skills in Braavos? If GRRM kept the Jon/Arya plot going into the current versions of the books, he was never change his mind or replace her with Sansa just because she's currently too young. 11-12 year old Arya as endgame was never planned. And tbh, I've always seen little minor hints that make me think he was going with Jon/Arya in the books (the Ygritte/Arya Gendry/Jon connections, Jon remembering her kissing him as part of his bittersweet memories, Ghost and Nymeria's relationship being emphasized while not having them interact with the other wolves, etc), whereas I've never seen any that point to Jon/Sansa.

Also, knowing what we know now certainly makes this exchange rather amusing in hindsight:

Only Ned and Jon ever called Arya pretty she remembers...I'm currently doing a re-read, wonder if I should make a list of these things.

Some past threads for our general amusement as to GRRM's Starkcest wish.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105392-jon-and-arya/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/58364-arya-jon/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80001-jon-and-arya-hooking-up/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/108340-jons-queen-adding-all-foreshadowings-up/

[Lord Varys]

Oh, I've no problem with Arya hitting puberty, falling in love, having sex etc. But I'm not sure whether this whole 'doomed incest love' between Arya and Jon can happen now, considering that Arya is away, and Jon is surrounded by much more mature and attractive women (Melisandre & Val).

But I'm not opposed to the notion that Arya could become Jon's queen at the very end of the series, as a sort of second Lyanna. The question that remains is would the person Arya is about to become want such a thing. I'm not sure about that.

[Taenqyrhae]

I'm sorry, but I find the "Outline Arya is actually book Sansa" argument rubbish, especially since the only thing the OP is basing this on is his own wishes for his favorite character and that Sansa married Tyrion.

Only thing? I posted something like 7 points, and several of them were posted in the original thread before the letter was released. I'm not sure I would say I have any favorite characters, but admittedly Sansa probably is one of the most interesting to me. I don't have a particular interest in her marrying any particular person, and I personally think Jon Snow is a pretty dark character and Sansa would be better off married to someone else. But that's definitely where I think the story is going.

[teej6]

Only thing? I posted something like 7 points, and several of them were posted in the original thread before the letter was released. I'm not sure I would say I have any favorite characters, but admittedly Sansa probably is one of the most interesting to me. I don't have a particular interest in her marrying any particular person, and I personally think Jon Snow is a pretty dark character and Sansa would be better off married to someone else. But that's definitely where I think the story is going.

If Jon Snow ends up marrying one of the Stark girls, the hints and foreshadowing all point to Arya Stark IMO. Sansa, at least in AGOT, was written as a foil to Arya's character. Sansa's character definitely developed over the course of the novels but I don't see her as being more or even as central as Arya in the overall series. And I definitely don't see her ending up with Jon.