Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Sansa was eleven when she had those crushes. She is now 13. She is still a teenager by our definitions, not a woman. Sansa's emotions are certainly relevant to her character and her outcomes, but how one feels at 13 is not going to determine how one feels for the rest of their life.

There is also the caveat that Sandor is either dead or (more likely) crippled on a small isolated isle, and in the opposite direction Sansa will probably be heading. Sandor's story is largely thematically done with, I'd be surprised to see him be brought back, especially in a romantic sense. Sandor existed to help disillusion Sansa while simultaneously portray a more realistic archetype of knight.

Totally anachronistic. If that's the case, then no one ever loved anyone in nearly the whole of ASOIAF.

Practically every single female character was a teenager when she flowered, fell in love, and was married.

Besides, Sandor isn't even Sansa's first crush. Her first crush/love was (true to the original outline) Joffrey. It is Joffrey who existed to help disillusion Sansa. Littlefinger is her mentor. And who knows where she'll end up by the end...

[Isobel Harper]

Sansa was eleven when she had those crushes. She is now 13. She is still a teenager by our definitions, not a woman. Sansa's emotions are certainly relevant to her character and her outcomes, but how one feels at 13 is not going to determine how one feels for the rest of their life.

There is also the caveat that Sandor is either dead or (more likely) crippled on a small isolated isle, and in the opposite direction Sansa will probably be heading. Sandor's story is largely thematically done with, I'd be surprised to see him be brought back, especially in a romantic sense. Sandor existed to help disillusion Sansa while simultaneously portray a more realistic archetype of knight.

I agree. I think there is some sort of connection there and Sansa's sincerity and dignity did have an effect on Sandor, and possibly ultimately assisted him in his decision to stay on the Quiet Isle, if he's there. However, I think it's far more platonic than some assume. There is the UnKiss to consider... but consider the nature of the UnKiss. Sansa was scared of Sandor most, if not all of the times that she was in his physical presence. Sansa was sincere with Sandor and sincere about Sandor... until the UnKiss. There's also Sansa's tendency of fudging the truth. She mentally alters things that are too uncomfortable for her to handle. (For example, she doesn't admit Cersei's guilt over Lady's death, even in her inner-monologue, until finally fessing up to the Tyrells about Joffrey.) The UnKiss is a fantasy to hide the uncomfortable memories of her wedding to Tyrion, her traumatic experience with Sandor during the Battle of the Blackwater, and Littlefinger kissing her.

[LongRider]

'Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too'

Mind blown.

I see the foreshadowing now,how could I have missed it? Jon dies and comes back as the Ghost of the Pillsbury Doughboy! And right on cue, Arya punches him the belly. What a literary genius that GRRM is.

:bowdown:

[WeaselPie]

...

lol, how did I miss all that? That's it, SamSan FTW

[Isobel Harper]

'Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too'

Mind blown.

I see the foreshadowing now,how could I have missed it? Jon dies and comes back as the Ghost of the Pillsbury Doughboy! And right on cue, Arya punches him the belly. What a literary genius that GRRM is.

:bowdown:

Woohoooo!

:lmao:

[LongRider]

We don't know if Sandor decided to go to the QI or was taken. Stranger is giving us signals that leaving the QI is in the cards. The gravedigger gave his opinion on the visitors when he threw dirt at their feet. (hint, it wasn't a Hallmark greeting card, it was a sign of disrespect) The idea that Sandor will stay on the QI is one that's debatable, but like Arya, he's a novice who will wash out.

[Light a wight tonight]

Don't know if this has been brought up; there are too many posts to scan each one. Cousin marriage seems to be perfectly acceptable in Westeros, even between first cousins. Lysa plans on marrying Sansa to Sweetrobin and nobody so much as blinks. Sansa and Sweetrobin are first cousins. This is freakin' canon.

Anyone objecting to Jon and Sansa marrying based on some incest taboo is simply indulging in his/her own attitudes, not anything from the books or from real life as it exists in much of the world.

[Isobel Harper]

We don't know if Sandor decided to go to the QI or was taken. Stranger is giving us signals that leaving the QI is in the cards. The gravedigger gave his opinion on the visitors when he threw dirt at their feet. (hint, it wasn't a Hallmark greeting card, it was a sign of disrespect) The idea that Sandor will stay on the QI is one that's debatable, but like Arya, he's a novice who will wash out.

Where is that in the books? Do you remember? Not to contradict you, but it might be a bit of foreshadowing on GRRM's part too. A foreshadow that he'll out live them and bury them perhaps?

[Isobel Harper]

Don't know if this has been brought up; there are too many posts to scan each one. Cousin marriage seems to be perfectly acceptable in Westeros, even between first cousins. Lysa plans on marrying Sansa to Sweetrobin and nobody so much as blinks. Sansa and Sweetrobin are first cousins. This is freakin' canon.

Anyone objecting to Jon and Sansa marrying based on some incest taboo is simply indulging in his/her own attitudes, not anything from the books or from real life as it exists in much of the world.

The posters that argue against Jon/Arya and Jon/Sansa don't seem to be making the argument about cousins marrying inappropriate, but that of siblings marrying inappropriate, which is what they were raised to be.

The only way I can see either of these working out without the "ew" factor, if it had to, would be 10 or more years after the discovery, looong after they've accepted each other as cousins, not siblings.

[para]

<snip> My opinion <snip

I disagree with your opinion on Jon/Sansa because I disagree with your reading of their family dynamic. They did not grow up in Suburbia with action figures and co-ed kindergartens. They were growing up in medieval-type of place and culture, separated by gender, class and a parent. To make claims on the understanding of their dynamic when they have never ever interacted in canon, in real time (unless you count the time Jon describes Sansa as "radiant" while holding Joffrey's hand), is as useful as claiming Westeros' moon is made of cheese.

Same goes for making any assumption how they would act around each other, should they meet again. We do no know this either and my guess and reading is just as good as yours or anyone else's. Westeros' sun might be of custard but until GRRM sends an astronaut, we will not know.

I am also not impressed by your rhetorical attempts to appeal to authority (the "best minds of this fandom already dismissed this theory" bit earlier.) to dismiss the contents of this thread. The best minds of this fandom (According to who by the way?) are not writing this story.

[LongRider]

Right now Jon's fate is very much up in the air, or down in the snow I guess. So, he's comatose/dead/warged into Ghost/frozen in the meat lockers-ice cells/on funeral pyre dragged by Val beyond the Wall, what e-v-e-r! He finds out RLJ is true. And.....................

What, he's automatically crowned king of all the 7 Kingdoms? Hmmmm,. The Wot5K's is the worst war since the Targ's appeared on the scene and everyone expects things will be right back to normal no problem?

Seriously?

If the Wall comes down and the winter kills off a large part of an already reduced population and the Checov's wildfire burns KL to the ground do you really think the 'Realm' will survive intact? I don't. GRRM has changed the story from the outline in many huge ways.

This letter has caused the Sansa/Jon shipping wight to rise up again. Kinda hilarious really.

[Isobel Harper]

Right now Jon's fate is very much up in the air, or down in the snow I guess. So, he's comatose/dead/warged into Ghost/frozen in the meat lockers-ice cells/on funeral pyre dragged by Val beyond the Wall, what e-v-e-r! He finds out RLJ is true. And.....................

What, he's automatically crowned king of all the 7 Kingdoms? Hmmmm,. The Wot5K's is the worst war since the Targ's appeared on the scene and everyone expects things will be right back to normal no problem?

Seriously?

If the Wall comes down and the winter kills off a large part of an already reduced population and the Checov's wildfire burns KL to the ground do you really think the 'Realm' will survive intact? I don't. GRRM has changed the story from the outline in many huge ways.

This letter has caused the Sansa/Jon shipping wight to rise up again. Kinda hilarious really.

Snow Wight. Sansa always did love fairytales. Maybe she'll end up with one after all. :P

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I disagree with your opinion on Jon/Sansa because I disagree with your reading of their family dynamic. They did not grow up in Suburbia with action figures and co-ed kindergartens. They were growing up in medieval-type of place and culture, separated by gender, class and a parent. To make claims on the understanding of their dynamic when they have never ever interacted in canon, in real time (unless you count the time Jon describes Sansa as "radiant" while holding Joffrey's hand), is as useful as claiming Westeros' moon is made of cheese.

Same goes for making any assumption how they would act around each other, should they meet again. We do no know this either and my guess and reading is just as good as yours or anyone else's. Westeros' sun might be of custard but until GRRM sends an astronaut, we will not know.

I am also not impressed by your rhetorical attempts to appeal to authority (the "best minds of this fandom already dismissed this theory" bit earlier.) to dismiss the contents of this thread. The best minds of this fandom (According to who by the way?) are not writing this story.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

That was beautifully written. Especially the bolded part.

[Isobel Harper]

Regarding the whole Jon/Arya or Jon/Sansa thing, I feel like I need to point this out. First, the arguments here are quickly digressing into circular arguments. People rejecting Sansa/Jon/Arya romance state that they are siblings, in heart if not physically. People not rejecting Sansa/Jon/Arya romance say that they are just cousins, which has occurred numerous times in the serious and in real life medieval society. Arguing that they are truly cousins to someone who sees them as siblings is as pointless as arguing that they are siblings to someone who sees them as cousins. The only new argument that might be made would be against someone stating that "half-siblings isn't so bad...," which I haven't seen yet.

[Mladen]

I disagree with your opinion on Jon/Sansa because I disagree with your reading of their family dynamic. They did not grow up in Suburbia with action figures and co-ed kindergartens. They were growing up in medieval-type of place and culture, separated by gender, class and a parent. To make claims on the understanding of their dynamic when they have never ever interacted in canon, in real time (unless you count the time Jon describes Sansa as "radiant" while holding Joffrey's hand), is as useful as claiming Westeros' moon is made of cheese.

Yes, it is my opinion and I have stated it very clearly, just as you have stated your own. We obviously disagree and let us not make out of it anything other than that. My opinion is based on my perception on the series, the analyses of their POVs, the rereads etc. I don't see how their place of growth changes what I have stated or how GRRM has written them. I never actually spoke about anything other than the material we have in the series and how GRRM positioned things.

I am also not impressed by your rhetorical attempts to appeal to authority (the "best minds of this fandom already dismissed this theory" bit earlier.) to dismiss the contents of this thread. The best minds of this fandom (According to who by the way?) are not writing this story.

I did not dismiss the content of this thread based on what someone else said and that is rather unfair and completely wrong assessment of my posts given that even in my first post I have dealt with the OP's arguments and every argument that has been thrown since. Furthermore, I am not trying to impress anyone, although I can't say the same for you, and my recollection was just a reminder that this theory tantalized the minds of many including those whom I believe are some exceptionally intelligent and well-read individuals. I understand that for some people expressing a simple opinion is a wondrous thing, but the way I see it, these boards serve for that.

So, finally, as right as you are that certain people are not writing the series, allow me to reciprocate - neither are you.

[teej6]

I said I wouldn't post again here, but apparently it is necessary when people fail to comprehend my first one.

I said it would be less wrong from a moral standpoint for Jon to marry Dany than Sansa/Arya. I said nothing about it being right, or that anything good could come of it biologically. Because nothing good would come of it.

The entire discussion is moot ofc, Jon isn't making it to series end.

How is it less wrong from a moral standpoint for Jon to marry his aunt than his cousin? Strange logic. Arya/Sansa also have their mum's genes, which makes it more removed than Dany's.

[teej6]

Double post

[Mladen]

How is it less wrong from a moral standpoint for Jon to marry his aunt than his cousin? Strange logic. Arya/Sansa also have their mum's genes, which makes it more removed than Dany's.

The problem in this comparison isn't in the level of closeness, genetically speaking, but how Jon feels about different women. The difference between Dany and Stark sisters is that Jon has grown as their brother, he feels as their brother, loves them as their brother. When it comes to Dany, we have none of it. Not only that he doesn't know Dany, but even when he meets her, she will be stranger to him. Stark girls are someone whom he looked as sisters his whole life. In comparison, again, a question that nobody can answer on this thread, do you all believe Jaime ever felt for Cersei what Jon felt for Arya?

[psychosanta]

Well, Jon is far from the worst man Sansa could end up with but still... I really can't see it happening. I understand that GRRM intended pairing Jon/Arya but the story has taken a whole different course from its inicial one. I don't know, maybe it'd make sense if the story had been as originaly planned but I really can't see Jon and Sansa ending up together. I mean , they've both had some very bitter love stories that (I think) have somehow hardened them, and if they have to be paired with someone, I say it should be someone who brings life back to them, not someone to compare their love tragedies with.

[teej6]

The problem in this comparison isn't in the level of closeness, genetically speaking, but how Jon feels about different women. The difference between Dany and Stark sisters is that Jon has grown as their brother, he feels as their brother, loves them as their brother. When it comes to Dany, we have none of it. Not only that he doesn't know Dany, but even when he meets her, she will be stranger to him. Stark girls are someone whom he looked as sisters his whole life. In comparison, again, a question that nobody can answer on this thread, do you all believe Jaime ever felt for Cersei what Jon felt for Arya?

Jon sees Arya/Sansa as his siblings but those feelings could evolve into something else once he finds out that they are his cousins rather than his sisters. It may not happen overnight or it may just be an automatic/instant attraction. GRRM in his draft letter had Jon and Arya having romantic feelings for each other even when they thought they were siblings. So if GRRM means for Jon and Arya to develop feeings for each, I think he can find (write) a plausible/logical explanation for it. In many cultures cousins are raised in close proximity to one another (maybe even in the same household) and in most cases see themselves as siblings as kids and then once they reach adulthood get married. At some point between them being kids and puberty they realize that they are set up to be married by society/family and they develop romantic feelings for one another. This is not uncommon or unheard of.