RobOsevens Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 IF they do end up together it will be politically motivated not romantically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm sorry, we are talking about SANSA and Jon, not Arya and Jon (as the books are written) I am well aware of what the main topic is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 You think that everyone will just cease to play the Game just because Jon is king? Everyone in Westeros knows now that kings can be de-throned and defeated, if you just have the right support. Sansa could provide a lot support - in addition to whatever her hypothetical, ambitious husband could get on his own.I mean, let's have a look. King Jon vs. the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Reach + allies who hold the Westerlands. Who would win? Sansa's hypothetical husband or a king who is facing open rebellion from 80 percent of his country?Yes, Sansa would never wage war against Jon - but who would know if she got a say in this. Jon certainly wouldn't. So Sansa as the key to Jon's successful de-throning would certainly be enough motivation to keep her very close.And what political support would Sansa provide over and above that Jon would already have in the North? You don't marry where you are politically strong. But, where you may have problems. Jon would likely have strong political support from the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Exactly! Nothing in that original draft of GRRM shows current Sansa having any characteristic of orginal Arya. Sansa in the books is a toned down version of Sansa in that draft and in no way is evidence of Sansa marrying Jon. Except it has already set up Tyrion's marriage and affection for Sansa similar to the Outline's Tyrion's affection for Arya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 And what political support would Sansa provide over and above that Jon would already have in the North? You don't marry where you are politically strong. But, where you may have problems. Jon would likely have strong political support from the North.Support of the Riverlands and the Eyrie for one thing. Who knows what other political powers Sansa will be connected to by the end of the story?And if you never marry where you are politically strong, why did Brandon marry Lyarra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Except it has already set up Tyrion's marriage and affection for Sansa similar to the Outline's Tyrion's affection for Arya It has? Outline Tyrion is in love with Arya. Book Tyrion admires Sansa a little and thinks she is pretty but a child. They dont really match up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 And why would we put that much faith in that outline, when substantial changes from it have occurred? ETA: Look, I don't want to get caught as saying "never" would happen. But, GRRM would have to do a lot of creative writing in order to get Jon to go from seeing Arya as his little sister to being a potential sexual partner and Arya would have to make a change as well in the way she sees Jon. Plus, it would have to make sense politically if Jon is going to be king of something after everything concludes. So according to you, once Jon finds out that he isn't technically Arya's brother he's just going to be like,"Ah, right, now I can have sex with her!" Do you really think he is going to stop thinking of her as his sister and start seeing her as a sexual partner, after spending most of his life thinking of her as his sister? I just don't seeing happening. I am well aware of what the main topic is about. OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm afraid you've also missed the point. GRRM planned a Jon/Stark girl love story as the central romance, culminating in a relief from their anguish when Jon's parentage is revealed. He planned this as the denouement of the entire Jon Snow story.. Jon and a Stark girl. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. I believe that some elements of that initial draft are going to stay in the story, especially the bit about Sansa and Tyrion's dubious loyalties to their respective families. I don't understand why some posters argue that Jon has to make a political match in marriage. Why can't he do it for love? And he may view Arya as a sister now but that can change once he knows the truth about his parentage. In many cultures cousins grow up in joint families, more like brother and sister, and end up marrying each other as adults. And if any of the Stark girls end up marrying Jon, it's going to be Arya coz she and Jon are already emotionally connected and GRRM can write in the physical attraction later on. I mean in can be the epilogue to the last book after years have passed and Arya is all grown up. But I can't see Jon and Sansa together coz they both are written has having very different characters and views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaechyll Targaryen Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm afraid you've also missed the point. GRRM planned a Jon/Stark girl love story as the central romance, culminating in a relief from their anguish when Jon's parentage is revealed. He planned this as the denouement of the entire Jon Snow story.. Jon and a Stark girl. I agree, I think that much at least is clear. It's described as a passion that carries on for the entire trilogy so it's not like this wasn't originally supposed to be a significant part of the story. I'd be very surprised if this ended up being completely abandoned I just think that the Stark girl will now be Sansa instead of Arya. Even on a superficial level I think Jon/Sansa works better than Jon/Arya because Jon and Arya actually look like siblings whereas Jon and Sansa don't look alike at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm afraid you've also missed the point. GRRM planned a Jon/Stark girl love story as the central romance, culminating in a relief from their anguish when Jon's parentage is revealed. He planned this as the denouement of the entire Jon Snow story.. Jon and a Stark girl. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. I believe that some elements of that initial draft are going to stay in the story, especially the bit about Sansa and Tyrion's dubious loyalties to their respective families. I don't understand why some posters argue that Jon has to make a political match in marriage. Why can't he do it for love? And he may view Arya as a sister now but that can change once he knows the truth about his parentage. In many cultures cousins grow up in joint families, more like brother and sister, and end up marrying each other as adults. And if any of the Stark girls end up marrying Jon, it's going to be Arya coz she and Jon are already emotionally connected and GRRM can write in the physical attraction later on. I mean it can be the epilogue to the last book after years have passed and Arya is all grown up. But I can't see Jon and Sansa together coz they both are written has having very different characters and views Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well, if its Sansa they better start now. Jon preference of his future wife's sister will become a problem otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean. I believe that some elements of that initial draft are going to stay in the story, especially the bit about Sansa and Tyrion's dubious loyalties to their respective families. I don't understand why some posters argue that Jon has to make a political match in marriage. Why can't he do it for love? And he may view Arya as a sister now but that can change once he knows the truth about his parentage. In many cultures cousins grow up in joint families, more like brother and sister, and end up marrying each other as adults. And if any of the Stark girls end up marrying Jon, it's going to be Arya coz she and Jon are already emotionally connected and GRRM can write in the physical attraction later on. I mean in can be the epilogue to the last book after years have passed and Arya is all grown up. But I can't see Jon and Sansa together coz they both are written has having very different characters and views. Well I, for one, don't think a political marriage will even be a "thing" after the events of the long night. Who knows how the entire society will stand, politically or culturally? Might make much more sense to hunker down and rebuild and be able to marry for love? Who knows. Sure it could be Arya, but I think she's got a different path. It seems, to me, that when GRRM changed Arya into an assassin, Sansa's role got switched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Arya is not an assassin. She has begun an apprenticeship, not one she has completed. Anyone remember that Buffy episode Anne? Buffy has killed Angel, her mother kicks her out of the house, and she's kicked out school so she runs to LA. She is alone and has no one. She meets a girl who wants to join a cult. Buffy finds out the cult is not what it seems. She goes to this place and it turns out its a portal to hell where young people work until they are old and are spat back out to die. The demons force them to forget their names, insisting that they are 'no one' or they will be punished. The demon goes down the line so everyone recites that their name is 'No One' until Buffy says 'I'm Buffy, The Vampire Slayer and you are?' and proceeds to destroy the place. That was 1998, I wonder if GRRM saw that? Anyway, it reminds me very much of the Faceless Men. The Demon even takes his human face off to reveal the monster beneath with the quip 'Do you know how long it took to glue that thing on?' Its so eerily similar I often wonder if Arya's time with them will end with an homage to that and she tears the place up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Support of the Riverlands and the Eyrie for one thing. Who knows what other political powers Sansa will be connected to by the end of the story?And if you never marry where you are politically strong, why did Brandon marry Lyarra?How does Sansa bring additional support from the Riverlands or the Eyrie that Rickon or Bran wouldn't have. I am not seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Sandor's cloak is about Sandor for Sansa... All the repetition, and it's full of sexual and marital symbolism. All sorts of hints there, the pledge to protect, the kiss, the dagger, steel on [Alayne] stone, the bloody cloak (classic red on white consummation symbolism) she chooses, the tearing of the cloak and the blood and the bells ringing (deep throated bronze booming!) while she's huddled beneath it, dreaming of him in bed with her on her wedding night, how his cloak feels against her bare breasts, again, the tear with blood seeping, and it's his left sleeve (wearing his heart on his sleeve), treasuring his cloak in a cedar (hope) chest with her summer silks (a dream of spring), dreaming of marrying a tall strong man who kisses her and gives her his cloak and she's dreaming of a tall strong man who kisses her and gives her his cloak and she places him in the marriage bed... And Sandor is all about fire in that scene, that's about him. It's all about him for Sansa. Here are all the times she thinks of his cloak (he even goes there) and I'm sure I'm missing some. This is the author making a very strong point. Sandor Clegane was the first rider to appear. He wore an olive-green cloak over his soot-grey armor. That, and his hound's-head helm, were his only concession to ornament. In the back of the royal box, Sandor Clegane stood at guard, his hands resting on his swordbelt. The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown roughspun tunic and studded leather jerkin. "Lady Sansa," the Hound announced curtly when he saw her. "Enough," she heard the Hound rasp... Boros shoved a meaty hand down the front of Sansa's bodice and gave a hard yank. The silk came tearing away, baring her to the waist. Sansa covered her breasts with her hands... Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine. Clegane lifted her to the ground. His white cloak was torn and stained, and blood seeped through a jagged tear in his left sleeve. "The little bird's bleeding. Someone take her back to her cage and see to that cut." "I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her... Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps. When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. How long she stayed there she could not have said, but after a time she heard a bell ringing, far off across the city. The sound was a deep-throated bronze booming, coming faster with each knell. Sansa was wondering what it might mean when a second bell joined in, and a third, their voices calling across the hills and hollows, the alleys and towers, to every corner of King’s Landing. She threw off the cloak and went to her window. I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp. He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her." As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Arya is not an assassin. She has begun an apprenticeship, not one she has completed. Insert WoW spoilers here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Insert WoW spoilers here. Still an apprentice. And a crappy one apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well I, for one, don't think a political marriage will even be a "thing" after the events of the long night. Who knows how the entire society will stand, politically or culturally? Might make much more sense to hunker down and rebuild and be able to marry for love? Who knows. Sure it could be Arya, but I think she's got a different path. It seems, to me, that when GRRM changed Arya into an assassin, Sansa's role got switched.Yeah, political marriages won't make much sense if in the end we have only a few of the noble houses standing. But I still think it's Jon and Arya and I also think it will be Jon who saves Arya from completely losing her humanity, which btw I think she had in abundance in AGOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Out of the five planned main characters only Arya has become such an unimportant character in the actually published books, she doesn't have many POV chapters, she doesn't even appear in all the books, her chapters are never focused on her, no other POVs had any significant relationship with her, GRRM just lets her die somewhere randomly because now that Sansa took up her role she does not have a main role in narrative. Not buying it. I do not have any fundamental problem with Jon/Sansa but it is just a random crack ship like Jon and say Blackwood girl. Those Blackwoods ended up marrying a lot of significant people after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yeah, political marriages won't make much sense if in the end we have only a few of the noble houses standing. But I still think it's Jon and Arya and I also think it will be Jon who saves Arya from completely losing her humanity, which btw I think she had in abundance in AGOT. According to the outline, the big battle against the Others happens at the Wall. Other than the war that Stannis will bring to the Capitol, I don't see why many of the Noble houses will be destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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