para Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 And I don't think it's likely to happen because 1) it's not going to make sense politicallyWe don't know the politics of Book 7 or what or wouldn't make sense politically. But we do know that Sansa is and always will be closely connected/heiress to three of the four regions that made Robert's Rebellion a roaring success. So maybe the question is not what Sansa could do for Jon politically but what she could do for a high-powered, political rival. So yes, marrying her makes sense politically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 You will marry a King.... No, that's Sansa! Well Sansa is engaged to Joffrey and there is no other King lined up. So yes, that would seem to be Sansa Interesting that the show removed BOTH those lines but kept the rest of them pretty much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 We don't know the politics of Book 7 or what or wouldn't make sense politically. But we do know that Sansa is and always will be closely connected/heiress to three of the four regions that made Robert's Rebellion a roaring success. So maybe the question is not what Sansa could do for Jon politically but what she could do for a high-powered, political rival.So yes, marrying her makes sense politically.Uh, how? Why does Jon need to marry a northern girl, if he is to become King of Westeros? He'd have plenty of political support from the North if he decided to become King of Westeros. Now, in the case of Jon becoming the king of the North, it might. But, I don't see that happening unless Jon decides to hose his siblings and declare himself King of the North or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Not sure why you are arguing so vehemently because that letter plainly states that GRRM didn't consider Sansa a protagonist and intended her to betray her family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 I also got the impression from the letter that he intended for the Stark kids to be older and for the Arya character to be closer in age to Jon. Keeping the "forbidden love" aspect of the relationship would have been creepy with Jon lusting for an 11 year old - even worse with a 7 year old. It might also have been seen as weird to have incestuous love being a big point for both the Lannisters and the Starks at the beginning of the story, best to save the love for later when everybody is older and they know they aren't as closely related as they thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Where are you getting that there is a "small" chance? How can you say one way or the other what the likelihood is? I also disagree that taking the previous outline into account means that a person is somehow disregarding the books that have been published. All I'm saying is that from reading the books the possibility of Jon/Sansa occurred to me and I'd see it repeatedly stated that GRRM wouldn't pair Jon with either of the Stark cousins that he was raised to think are his sisters. People said GRRM would *never* do it and now here's proof that it was something that was part of his original plan. Why is it so outrageous to think that some aspect of this could still be part of his original plan? As for why they didn't set anything up earlier with Jon pining for Sansa--I personally think that would have been a bit much at that stage in the game and it would have made people think that Jon was weird for lusting after his sister. OTOH with Sansa not having seen Jon since she was eleven I think if they meet again that it'll be almost like meeting each other for the first time. He's a fully fledged warrior and battle commander and she's more beautiful and is no longer the silly and superficial girl she once was. To me it makes more sense for a relationship to build like that rather than setting it up early so that Jon conveniently ends up with the girl he's wanted since childhood. To be fair, Jon last saw Sansa when she was 11. Would be kind of weird for her to be pining over her. because that letter plainly states that GRRM didn't consider Sansa a protagonist and intended her to betray her family Sigh. The letter plainly stated many things that have not happened, yet Sansa did betray her family, and GRRM planned a Jon/Stark girl romance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yeah I'm giving you his reasons not mine. Sansa is still in her role IMO so she can't be taking over Arya's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Morgan Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 It seems that Jon/Arya is fate. No Jon/Sansa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 So according to you, once Jon finds out that he isn't technically Arya's brother he's just going to be like,"Ah, right, now I can have sex with her!" Do you really think he is going to stop thinking of her as his sister and start seeing her as a sexual partner, after spending most of his life thinking of her as his sister? I just don't seeing happening. Not saying its going to happen... but that's pretty much what the outline says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Being Sansa lovers, if Sansa is begot with child, do you think they stay on the same side enlight of the outed pages now on this board?Depends who the father is and her relationship with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Not saying its going to happen... but that's pretty much what the outline says And why would we put that much faith in that outline, when substantial changes from it have occurred? ETA: Look, I don't want to get caught as saying "never" would happen. But, GRRM would have to do a lot of creative writing in order to get Jon to go from seeing Arya as his little sister to being a potential sexual partner and Arya would have to make a change as well in the way she sees Jon. Plus, it would have to make sense politically if Jon is going to be king of something after everything concludes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 By new "information" are you referring to GRRM's original plan to marry Jon to Arya? How is this information related to Sansa? Admittedly I have only briefly scanned the letter GRRM wrote but what "aspects of Arya" have been "moved to the character of Sansa"? I don't think this particular piece of information can be included as evidence that Jon and Sansa will marry at all. The precise details of Sansa's arc are obviously completely different but GRRM seems to have kept the basic premise of his original plan for Sansa intact; Sansa has a relationship with Joffrey, she makes the wrong choice in favour of Joffrey, she regrets this choice and is stuck in a marriage she does not want to be in.Exactly! Nothing in that original draft of GRRM shows current Sansa having any characteristic of orginal Arya. Sansa in the books is a toned down version of Sansa in that draft and in no way is evidence of Sansa marrying Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 And why would we put that much faith in that outline, when substantial changes from it have occurred? ETA: Look, I don't want to get caught as saying "never" would happen. But, GRRM would have to do a lot of creative writing in order to get Jon to go from seeing Arya as his little sister to being a potential sexual partner and Arya would have to make a change as well in the way she sees Jon. Plus, it would have to make sense politically if Jon is going to be king of something after everything concludes. I'm sorry, we are talking about SANSA and Jon, not Arya and Jon (as the books are written) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well it gives us a untainted look at GRRMs thought process. A lot of things in this plan are rearranged, so its not hard to think that other parts will be coming up. Its got as much weight as pointing at a line and saying its foreshadowing. We don't know until after! We also can't deny that things people picked up on reading GOT, that may have been dropped, we don't know, but we do now know that Sansa's actions in GOT that have been so controversial were on purpose and not meant to be excused. We know that 'You Will Marry A King' likely referred to Jon, along with the naming of Nymeria after basically a Queen, and the discussion about the Queen's sigil on the banners hinting at Queen Arya and King Jon. Can we discard these now? Do they no longer foreshadow? Do we know the plan has changed that much? It does. I am not negating the importance of those pages, but we shouldn't really behave like the series isn't drastically changed. Especially in terms of said dynamics. I think we can all agree that Jon wasn't messing Arya's hair and called her "little sister" in that version. I think people negate the narrative of five books solely to have their two characters together. Why is Jon/Arya or even Jon/Sansa off the table? Well, because the narrative GRRM chose long time ago is so different from what that page speaks of. And the idea of Sansa and Jon isn't new. Some of the best minds on the forum entertained the idea for a while, but ultimately abandoned. Even I thought of that for some time 2 years ago. But when you take a closer look at narrative and how Jon feels about his sisters, the incest is off the table. And that is something we can't say for Jon/Dany, for example. Even Jaime never looked at Cersei as "his sweet sister". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabrecmc Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think we can safely take from this letter the idea that, at least initially, GRRM did not view a pseudo-sibling relationship as an impediment once it was revealed that the characters did not share the same parentage. Whether that part of the story ends up holding course, who knows? But I agree with prior posters that this at least shows that at some point, GRRM did not find that to be a reason not to pair people up. Obviously, lots of things have changed and more changes are to come, so it isn't like it is definitive proof or something. I have to admit that my first thought was that it made Jon/Sansa more likely b/c of the whole Tyrion thing. Interesting. Of course, this proves nothing, but it does add fuel to the fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Uh, how? Why does Jon need to marry a northern girl, if he is to become King of Westeros? He'd have plenty of political support from the North if he decided to become King of Westeros.You think that everyone will just cease to play the Game just because Jon is king? Everyone in Westeros knows now that kings can be de-throned and defeated, if you just have the right support. Sansa could provide a lot support - in addition to whatever her hypothetical, ambitious husband could get on his own.I mean, let's have a look. King Jon vs. the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Reach + allies who hold the Westerlands. Who would win? Sansa's hypothetical husband or a king who is facing open rebellion from 80 percent of his country?Yes, Sansa would never wage war against Jon - but who would know if she got a say in this. Jon certainly wouldn't. So Sansa as the key to Jon's successful de-throning would certainly be enough motivation to keep her very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 If the arc described for Jon is correct, if he doesn't marry Sansa he better marry her to someone extremely loyal to him so she is not exploited by his enemies.Maybe Gilly will die and we will see SamSan! 1. Sansa really likes the taste of lemons 2. Lemonade sometimes comes in a pink form 3. Sam has a "fat pink mast". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Exactly! Nothing in that original draft of GRRM shows current Sansa having any characteristic of orginal Arya. Sansa in the books is a toned down version of Sansa in that draft and in no way is evidence of Sansa marrying Jon. I'm afraid you've also missed the point. GRRM planned a Jon/Stark girl love story as the central romance, culminating in a relief from their anguish when Jon's parentage is revealed. He planned this as the denouement of the entire Jon Snow story.. Jon and a Stark girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 because that letter plainly states that GRRM didn't consider Sansa a protagonist and intended her to betray her family Please never for a split of second think that you are able to understand why I make certain arguments. And for the record, I argue something because of my ability to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Please never for a split of second think that you are able to understand why I make certain arguments. And for the record, I argue something because of my ability to read. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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