Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[Pod The Rod]

Laughing at "Incest is biologically wrong because of inbreeding" followed shortly by "It would be better for Jon to marry his aunt than his cousin."

I said I wouldn't post again here, but apparently it is necessary when people fail to comprehend my first one.

I said it would be less wrong from a moral standpoint for Jon to marry Dany than Sansa/Arya. I said nothing about it being right, or that anything good could come of it biologically. Because nothing good would come of it.

The entire discussion is moot ofc, Jon isn't making it to series end.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

This is not about whether GRRM would have done such story. He could have. The issue here is whether he is doing such story. I mean, the original draft could have worked, but not with the characters we now have. It is not the question whether GRRM would be able to find a suitable way to make Jon/Arya, or in this question Jon/Sansa incest possible. The question is can he do it now. My opinion, based on what I have read in Jon, Sansa and Arya's POVs is that such incest is not just impossible, but completely redundant in terms of uniting families etc. Basically, the difference is that GRRM would have written differently these characters if he had the ending from original draft. Jon wouldn't think of Arya and Sansa as his sisters, he wouldn't recall so much how he messed Arya's hair, or how refer to Sansa as his sister time after time. Same is for Sansa in this debate. She refers to Jon as her brother. GRRM could have made this incest possible with the characters he had in original draft, but from the characters we have, he really has a narrow window. I would even say the window doesn't even exist.

:agree: Perfectly stated. And also, as many have said in this thread, the Starks are most readers' "avatars" into the story.

I just find it so strange that Jon/Sansa is much more popular among fans than Jon/Arya. I always thought that Jon/Arya was the clear subtext, and that although I didn't expect to see it on the page, Jon would end up with an Arya type, and Arya might end up with someone who reminded her of Jon. But the two siblings would always be the closest -- Jon/Arya are this series' Harry and Hermione, an amazing platonic friendship that doesn't end up in romance.

[Lord Varys]

Come on, guys, since there are viable contraceptives about in our world, consensual incest should not really trouble anyone but the people involved. And those are essentially a rather small minority, considering the fact that you are usually not in your own siblings or the people you grew up with to a certain age.

Parent-children incest is another matter, and hardly a healthy obsession, nor usually fully consensual (although one could think about cases where a grown-up child falls for his/her young parent for some reason, but I really don't think it would make sense to consider this a great idea).

Cousin marriages are only considered to be taboo and a crime in certain societies. As I've said elsewhere - here in Germany I could marry my cousin without any legal or moral repercussions whatsoever (but you go in jail for consensual vaginal intercourse between siblings and children-parents-grandparents).

Back to the story:

There could still be room for a Jon/Arya/Sansa romance, if we go with the assumption that we are only through 1/3 or 1/2 of the series. The characters will then still have a lot to do. Things could change, they could meet again, and things may change between them. Although I don't consider it very likely that this Arya-Jon-Tyrion love triangle is still in the making.

With Sansa, I assume that there will eventually some sex with Littlefinger, either consensual or not so consensual (although he is wanting it to be consensual), but I'm not sure if there will be a marriage. If Sansa and Littlefinger are still going to aim at high prices, there is the Aegon option for Sansa - and if this Sansa-as-a-mother-thing from the draft is something George still has in mind, Sansa could side with Aegon and her son against both Daenerys and possibly Jon.

If Sansa is going to become a queen, Aegon would be the best deal, as she has no chance/inclination to back or ally herself with a Lannister or Baratheon claimant, Daenerys is female, and Sansa herself has no claim to the Iron Throne. And nothing suggests that Jon's parentage is going to be early - or if it is, that he'll make his own bid for the Iron Throne (only then would he become important or attractive as a husband).

[Arya Targaryen]

This is not about whether GRRM would have done such story. He could have. The issue here is whether he is doing such story. I mean, the original draft could have worked, but not with the characters we now have. It is not the question whether GRRM would be able to find a suitable way to make Jon/Arya, or in this question Jon/Sansa incest possible. The question is can he do it now. My opinion, based on what I have read in Jon, Sansa and Arya's POVs is that such incest is not just impossible, but completely redundant in terms of uniting families etc. Basically, the difference is that GRRM would have written differently these characters if he had the ending from original draft. Jon wouldn't think of Arya and Sansa as his sisters, he wouldn't recall so much how he messed Arya's hair, or how refer to Sansa as his sister time after time. Same is for Sansa in this debate. She refers to Jon as her brother. GRRM could have made this incest possible with the characters he had in original draft, but from the characters we have, he really has a narrow window. I would even say the window doesn't even exist.

How do you know what GRRM would have written? I still think that it is totally in character for all 3 of them. They haven't met for a long time, and they were kids when they last saw each other - of course they think of each other as siblings. The opposite would be weird. The question is what happens when the meet again. It can go either way. The original plot was that Jon and Arya fall in love and become tormented by it - because they are siblings and they know it. They grew up believing they are siblings and still fall in love. I just don't see why you think GRRM wouldn't have included any sort of deep sibling love between the two of them before they fall in love. If anything, being apart for such a long time actually helps in developing a love-love instead of a sibling-love.

Sansa and Jon are biological cousins. They were raised as siblings. They consider each other their siblings. Incest is biologically wrong because of inbreeding, I shouldn't have to explain why that is a bad thing.

I agree with the bolded part.

So tell me, why on Earth is Dany/Jon a better match than Sansa/Jon or Arya/Jon if Jon shares much more DNA with Dany. Because that's the problematic part of inbreeding: lack of diversity. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with what they THINK of each other.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

Sansa and Jon are biological cousins. They were raised as siblings. They consider each other their siblings. Incest is biologically wrong because of inbreeding, I shouldn't have to explain why that is a bad thing.

What about all of the examples of royal cousins and the like who are raised together and end up marrying? I don't think this is as far fetched as you are making it out to be.

GRRM clearly isn't opposed to the idea of a quasi-incestuous Stark pairing if he was planning on having it be a passion that was supposed to apart of the entire trilogy. And it isn't as though GRRM wasn't planning on having the characters feel tortured over the inappropriateness of their feelings for each other. It's not like he was planning on writing Jon and Arya as being totally fine with having romantic feelings for the other in spite of being related. It was supposed to be a source of conflict so again, I'm not seeing how this would necessarily be inconsistent with the way that the characters Jon and Sansa have been written. (This is of course assuming that the Jon/Arya idea has been transferred over to Jon/Sansa.)

[Mladen]

Yet GRRM planned a Jon/Arya love affair. Not sure how many times this has been pointed out in this thread so I'm fairly sure anyone who uses this argument has not read the thread.

Why are people arguing against this when that was the plan?

/end

I think you might not understand how tenses in English work.

What was the plan might not be what is the plan. That is the issue here. That some people use the three unpublished pages as some sort of evidence what will happen to be, completely negating thousands of pages that are actually published.

Plain and simple, the book and its characters GRRM is writing are truly different than those he originally intended.

How do you know what GRRM would have written? I still think that it is totally in character for all 3 of them. They haven't met for a long time, and they were kids when they last saw each other - of course they think of each other as siblings. The opposite would be weird. The question is what happens when the meet again. It can go either way. The original plot was that Jon and Arya fall in love and become tormented by it - because they are siblings and they know it. They grew up believing they are siblings and still fall in love. I just don't see why you think GRRM wouldn't have included any sort of deep sibling love between the two of them before they fall in love. If anything, being apart for such a long time actually helps in developing a love-love instead of a sibling-love.

And they still believe they are siblings. And even one day when they find out they are cousins, what will that change? I mean, look at the incest we have. Does anyone believe that Jaime ever felt about Cersei the way Jon feels for Arya and Sansa? Absolutely not. The sibling emotions can't all of a sudden mutate into a romantic love. Unless you are in Latino-american soap opera or some cheesy family drama such as "Brothers and sisters". We have them separated and we still have them feeling as they are siblings. Now, if you want to argue that something is in character when is specifically said different in the books like more times than we can actually count, that is fine by me. But my opinion is that it is complete disregard of written text for the sole purpose of shipping whatever is fashionable these days.

[Pod The Rod]

Come on, guys, since there are viable contraceptives about in our world, consensual incest should not really trouble anyone but the people involved. -snip-

Western Civilization is done. We are completely screwed. I don't know what to say to the bolded other than that.

Arya Targaryen said:

I agree with the bolded part.

So tell me, why on Earth is Dany/Jon a better match than Sansa/Jon or Arya/Jon if Jon shares much more DNA with Dany. Because that's the problematic part of inbreeding: lack of diversity. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with what they THINK of each other.

Read my post #161

Leaving this thread before I get myself banned. This is sickening.

[WeaselPie]

I think you might not understand how tenses in English work.

And I think you lack people skills.

Anyway, in your imagined completed story based on the letter that states GRRM's plan for a Jon/Arya romance, are you saying Jon and Arya did NOT think of each other as siblings?

[Crazy Joe Wilson]

The sort of man that Sansa would like to marry is currently of the half burnt variety. This is nicely is nicely explained by Le Cygne:

Which is much akin to a first crush or the feelings of a young girl to the only male person who showed her even the tiniest bit of kindness during a time of immense cruelty (Tyrion gets disqualifed from this since he is from the family who has basically made her life a living hell, and he is not physically handsome, whereas Sandor still possesses several very masculine traits like strength, physical size, and aggressiveness that a 13 year-old would still be enamored with).

VVV I think from the way Jon's last chapter ended that the Night's Watch is essentially done for, what with all the Wildings going on the attack as the Rangers get a'stabbin.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

I think Jon should keep his honour and not use magical resurrection to get out of his vows. His black brothers didnt get that option. Death was the end for them. Their vow was total.

I feel like it's such bullshit that Jon should be expected to keep his vows after his brothers broke their vows by betraying him. Jon doesn't owe the Night's Watch a thing anymore as far as I'm concerned.

I think Jon staying with the Watch after they killed him/tried to kill him would be beyond frustrating not to mention boring as far as a storytelling option.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

One thing's for sure. If GRRM's endgame is either Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya, it'll make the HBO series and the book series the most controversial ever...

But maybe that's what they're going for. The Unsullied may even be OK with Jon/Sansa... "she has red hair like Ygritte!" :lmao:

[Mladen]

And I think you lack people skills.

Anyway, in your imagined completed story based on the letter that states GRRM's plan for a Jon/Arya romance, are you saying Jon and Arya did NOT think of each other as siblings?

I think for that incest to work, their sibling dynamics would be significantly different. It's not that they would be aware of Jon's parentage, but they would behave more like Jaime and Cersei. Simply, as I have asked so many times, does anyone believe that Jaime behaved towards Cersei as Jon behaved towards Arya, messing her hair etc? The dynamics is what has changed between two versions and that is why such incest is not just improbable, but in my opinion, completely off the table. Simply, there is no logical way in which Martin could believably mutate Jon's emotions towards Arya, or Sansa, as for that matter, from sibling love to romantic love.

And, ironically, my people skills are one of the main reasons why I have the job I have :)

[Mad Madam Mim]

Which is much akin to a first crush or the feelings of a young girl to the only male person who showed her even the tiniest bit of kindness during a time of immense cruelty (Tyrion gets disqualifed from this since he is from the family who has basically made her life a living hell, and he is not physically handsome, whereas Sandor still possesses several very masculine traits like strength, physical size, and aggressiveness that a 13 year-old would still be enamored with).

I do like that Le Cygne left out the part of the Hound's quote with Arya where he says he should have taken (raped) her the night of the Battle of the Blackwater.

I also like how you have left out the rest of the sentence which says "and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

But Sandor's intentions are not what is being discussed, it is Sansa's feelings which are relevant to this topic. Her teenage crushes were Joffrey and Loras but she got over them. Dontos, Littlefinger and Tyrion all demonstrated relative kindness to Sansa yet she does not have dream of Dontos climbing in her bed, she does not invent ‘unkisses’ with Littlefinger (she is in fact revolted by his very real kisses) and she is not mentally sizing up every man she meets in comparison to Tyrion. These relationships do not resonate with Sansa in the same way as her interactions with Sandor. And traits such as strength and physical size are qualities a woman looks for in a man.

[Le Cygne]

But Sandor's intentions are not what is being discussed, it is Sansa's feelings which are relevant to this topic. Her teenage crushes were Joffrey and Loras but she got over them. Dontos, Littlefinger and Tyrion all demonstrated relative kindness to Sansa yet she does not have dream of Dontos climbing in her bed, she does not invent ‘unkisses’ with Littlefinger (she is in fact revolted by his very real kisses) and she is not mentally sizing up every man she meets in comparison to Tyrion. These relationships do not resonate with Sansa in the same way as her interactions with Sandor. And traits such as strength and physical size are qualities a woman looks for in a man.

Indeed. This is the usual thing, when they want Sansa paired with a different character. Someone she never met, or someone she clearly doesn't want. So let's pretend a series long relationship is about one minute taken out of context. And she's just a teenager, or she's just afraid rather than turned on, or she's just having some odd response no one has ever had.

He made her sing a song, but Sansa wants to sing him a song. There's even a do over with the hound at the Fingers. She lay down beside him in bed, he kisses her, she caresses him, then she dreams about him in bed with her, asking for a song. The quotes were about Sandor's cloak, making that about Jon is not only a poor reading but shows there really is nothing for Jon.

Also, when an author reads one of the steamiest Outlander sex scenes and thinks, I'll use that line for a Sansa and Sandor scene, odds are pretty good they are going to bang. It's fun to think of that, reading these comments. :leer:

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

One thing's for sure. If GRRM's endgame is either Jon/Sansa or Jon/Arya, it'll make the HBO series and the book series the most controversial ever...

But maybe that's what they're going for. The Unsullied may even be OK with Jon/Sansa... "she has red hair like Ygritte!" :lmao:

This round of press is going to be hilarious. Please someone ask Kit if he is looking forward to smooching Maisie. I want to see if he gets as uncomfortable as Joe

[Catastrophy]

My crack theory is for the long time that at the end Jon will have to marry both his sisters (cousins). But that is connected with dragon have 3 heads and not romantic feelings.

Think that it was really important that Aegon I was married to both sisters (in my opinion Aegon/Vysenia/Rhaenys are combined as one dragon with 3 heads) and that it is more than coincidence that they have some similarities with Jon/Arya/Sansa.

Still it is just crack. :D

I haven't seen romantic feeling between them in books so far, but wouldn't rule out marriage of convenience, what ever reason for it might be.

[Gwydden]

Western Civilization is done. We are completely screwed. I don't know what to say to the bolded other than that.

Yes, individuals with an unhealthy obsession with controlling other people's lives really make me lose my faith in Western civilization. And humanity, for that matter.

I think for that incest to work, their sibling dynamics would be significantly different. It's not that they would be aware of Jon's parentage, but they would behave more like Jaime and Cersei. Simply, as I have asked so many times, does anyone believe that Jaime behaved towards Cersei as Jon behaved towards Arya, messing her hair etc? The dynamics is what has changed between two versions and that is why such incest is not just improbable, but in my opinion, completely off the table. Simply, there is no logical way in which Martin could believably mutate Jon's emotions towards Arya, or Sansa, as for that matter, from sibling love to romantic love.

And, ironically, my people skills are one of the main reasons why I have the job I have :)

I'm 90% sure the idea was ditched. That it was in Martin's mind more than twenty years ago is hardly evidence of anything.

[Isobel Harper]

My crack theory is for the long time that at the end Jon will have to marry both his sisters (cousins). But that is connected with dragon have 3 heads and not romantic feelings.

Think that it was really important that Aegon I was married to both sisters (in my opinion Aegon/Vysenia/Rhaenys are combined as one dragon with 3 heads) and that it is more than coincidence that they have some similarities with Jon/Arya/Sansa.

Still it is just crack. :D

I haven't seen romantic feeling between them in books so far, but wouldn't rule out marriage of convenience, what ever reason for it might be.

I'm more of the opinion that there will be "three heads of the wolf,"*** the Ice in the north to the Fire or "three heads of the dragon" in the south. These wolves, I think, will be Jon and Arya and... maybe Rickon or Bran. Sansa could possibly be the third, but... well, Sansa doesn't have a wolf and I think, much to her misfortune, her story will continue to be in the south. (That could be her bittersweet ending: Knowing Arya, Bran, and Rickon are alive, but not being in Winterfell where she can see them everyday anymore.)

***ETA: not shipping them

[Crazy Joe Wilson]

I also like how you have left out the rest of the sentence which says "and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf."

But Sandor's intentions are not what is being discussed, it is Sansa's feelings which are relevant to this topic. Her teenage crushes were Joffrey and Loras but she got over them. Dontos, Littlefinger and Tyrion all demonstrated relative kindness to Sansa yet she does not have dream of Dontos climbing in her bed, she does not invent ‘unkisses’ with Littlefinger (she is in fact revolted by his very real kisses) and she is not mentally sizing up every man she meets in comparison to Tyrion. These relationships do not resonate with Sansa in the same way as her interactions with Sandor. And traits such as strength and physical size are qualities a woman looks for in a man.

Sansa was eleven when she had those crushes. She is now 13. She is still a teenager by our definitions, not a woman. Sansa's emotions are certainly relevant to her character and her outcomes, but how one feels at 13 is not going to determine how one feels for the rest of their life.

There is also the caveat that Sandor is either dead or (more likely) crippled on a small isolated isle, and in the opposite direction Sansa will probably be heading. Sandor's story is largely thematically done with, I'd be surprised to see him be brought back, especially in a romantic sense. Sandor existed to help disillusion Sansa while simultaneously portray a more realistic archetype of knight.

[LongRider]

My favorite branch of this entire thread;

Yes, her "black crow" dress makes a helluva lot of sense now

:eek:

~~~snip~~~

Are you referring to the black dress with feathers that only appears on the show? Perhaps it foreshadows Sansa getting her jiggy on with Sam, who the hell knows with D and D :leer:

~~~~snap~~~

:smileysex:

I think I'll be laughing about this the rest of the day, thank you. :lol:

:cheers:

Erect your fat pink masts and hop aboard the good ship SanSam ;)

Oh no you didn't MMM! I think I know a young wilding woman who will kick Sansa's pale northern Stark behind if she even thinks about Sam's fat pink mast!

You know she could do it with one hand holding the baby behind her back too. Oh yeah, bring it on!

:box: