Sansa will marry Jon Snow v2

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~~

Again, the thread that I mention is about a connection to Brienne. It was not intended to ship anyone. It seems that you not only didn't read the thread, but you also haven't been paying attention to my comments on here, as this is not the first time I've pointed this out.

Our 'giggles' are about this thread and only this thread. They are not about the thread you want us to read, but the thread we're currently in.

[Mad Madam Mim]

Again, the thread that I mention is about a connection to Brienne. It was not intended to ship anyone. It seems that you not only didn't read the thread, but you also haven't been paying attention to my comments on here, as this is not the first time I've pointed this out.

To clarify, my comments are not in relation to your thread regarding Brienne, they are in relation to this thread about Jon.

The difficulty with this topic is the lack of textual evidence to support it. As your thread suggests, the Ashford tourney can actually be interpreted in a number of ways however for this particular thread (about Jon and Sansa having romantic feelings for each other) the tourney is cited as evidence for Jon being the 'winner' of Sansa but there is nothing in the actual books for this theory to cling onto, nothing to help it stick and make sense so that when all the clues and hints are added together the astute reader can think 'ahh GRRM is hinting at a Sansa/Jon match, that makes sense'. There needs to be something with more substance. There needs to be something more in the actual story that GRRM is writing. If there was, the tourney and a 20 year old letter would be a supplement to what's in the original story, an added bonus for those who already picked up the clues. It shouldn't be the only 'evidence' of a Jon/Sansa union.

Off topic yes, but posts about Papa Smurf and Sandor's god awful dog tunic do make me giggle.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I find it more likely that Sansa will be the the nu Stark girl in a version of the Bael the Bard story than marry a Targ. Just like Robb reciting Jenny of Oldstones was a bad omen. We are told of Bael stealing away a Stark and Baelish has. People raised this before they found out about the original pregnancy plotline. But then sometimes I believe Sansa going kamikaze with Littlefinger is her ultimate end. The latter probably preferable than the former I think, give her a good out!

[Taenqyrhae]

We're laffing at the silly idea that 2 1/2 pages of a 20 year old sales pitch that includes a storyline of love triangle that doesn't include Sansa all of sudden becomes all about Sansa and the ship someone thinks she should have.

Five books and the actual story don't matter. Only the 'foreshadowing' that doesn't actually exist matters. The Ashford Tourney foreshadows nothing for Sansa. However, I will say, the nobles listed in the tourney of 90 years ago are still nobles in Westeros at the time of ASOIAF. Wheee!

But arguments that reference the books are pushed aside and disregarded because of fan 'theories' and dubious 'foreshadowing' of materials that aren't in the books in question. Since arguments based on the actual written materials are disregarded, well, threads wander where they may.

Fandom bicycle: http://bit.ly/1vznAqG

I'm not a shipper and I think shipping is stupid. My speculation is not based on any personal desires for characters to find romance, and I'm not a teen girl who rubs herself to Disney movies while dreaming of beautiful princesses rescued by noble beasts.

Besides, GRRM has already done "Beauty and the Beast", I doubt he's planning a repeat. Maybe the evidence does lean more towards Jon/Arya romance, but the Sansa possibility seems more likely to me. Disagree? Fine, but don't expect to mock my thread and use strawman arguments against it and expect me to remain polite.

[Danilo Sanches]

Sansa eventually having a romance with Jon Snow or marrying him is not a delusion created by members of the fandom. Actually , it's a pretty good possibility like this analysis demonstrates http://blindestspot.tumblr.com/

I'm not saying Sansa and Sandor is not possible , just that Jon and Sansa should not be ignored as another possibility.

[Le Cygne]

The author is not shy about making his own points. There's no need to go off text like that. Apart from vague generalities, there's a quote where Sansa thinks of Jon after someone else brings him up, but the context of the quote was left out, then a quote where he thinks of her, but the context of that quote was left out, too.

Most often he thinks of Arya, the author uses repetition to show how much Arya means to him. The payoff, at the end, is ARYA. He sets her apart from the others in the paragraph, and in his feelings for her. Arya is the one he thinks of when he thinks about Ygritte, as he has done over and over again. Arya is the one who matters most.

Here's that:

He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest.

[GrammarYatzy]

This is a very weak to extremely weak theory with no supporting evidence and is very reliant on the absurd suggestion that rickon won't eventually sit winterfell AND that jon snow will.

I like the bael the bard one though. It would be pretty amusing for stannis or jon to be all "you still owe me a stark sister" once they find about about Jayne. I don't like a mance/sansa ship tho

[Danilo Sanches]

I understand what you're saying Le Cygne , but one of the prerequisites for something like that to evolve between Jon and Sansa would be that they don't think about each other that way until they meet again after so long a time apart. There's no "evidence" , only hints that Sansa yearns to meet her "last" brother , only then things would get confused between them.

[Le Cygne]

No, that doesn't wash, either. And again, he doesn't "hint" that way - he is not shy about making his points. These two characters already know each other yet rarely think of each other at all, throughout a long book series. And he does have them think about others, over and over again. That's telling us something. That's the story.

I had a good quote from the author, still looking...

[Danilo Sanches]

These two characters already know each other yet rarely think of each other at all, throughout a long book series.

Yes , they don't think that much about each other , but again , they wouldn't have to if their realtionship were to develop in a way in which they finally are reunited and only then started to get close to each other. It would need time to develop though , but it isn't an altogether improbable situation.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Sansa eventually having a romance with Jon Snow or marrying him is not a delusion created by members of the fandom. Actually , it's a pretty good possibility like this analysis demonstrates http://blindestspot.tumblr.com/

I'm not saying Sansa and Sandor is not possible , just that Jon and Sansa should not be ignored as another possibility.

Even the writer knows that is a hell of a leap to make and there are very few things there that suggest anything romantic happening in future. Also, things like cutting off the quote that compares Sansa to Ygritte. Its not complete. What comes after his subconscious 'You know nothing Jon Snow' is about Arya. Its pointing out a lot of the themes all the Stark kids are dealing with, and just applying them to Sansa and Jon. I mean, Bran wanted to be a Kingsguard and had to learn to live as a disabled person. His dreams were shattered. Is that foreshadowing Bran/Sansa?

I would also like to point out this quote:

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya… he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had… yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him

'You made me feel inferior all my life, Marry Me Sansa!'

[Le Cygne]

In that case, maybe she will have a relationship with {Insert Someone Here}. There's no story being told for Sansa and {Insert Someone Here}, either.

[Mad Madam Mim]

I'm not a shipper and I think shipping is stupid. My speculation is not based on any personal desires for characters to find romance, and I'm not a teen girl who rubs herself to Disney movies while dreaming of beautiful princesses rescued by noble beasts.

Besides, GRRM has already done "Beauty and the Beast", I doubt he's planning a repeat. Maybe the evidence does lean more towards Jon/Arya romance, but the Sansa possibility seems more likely to me. Disagree? Fine, but don't expect to mock my thread and use strawman arguments against it and expect me to remain polite.

Oh Lawd I hope your not one of those that gets off on Elsa with Olaf instead...those people really scare me :uhoh:

We are not arguing that it is not possible, but based on the text it does not seem probable.

[Lord Damian]

I fervently believe that Aegon VI will be Sansa's husband and King husband. She will be the younger, more beautiful Queen who displaces Cersei and it is fitting that it be her in that regard. Jon will not be the guy.

[LongRider]

I'm not a shipper and I think shipping is stupid. My speculation is not based on any personal desires for characters to find romance, and I'm not a teen girl who rubs herself to Disney movies while dreaming of beautiful princesses rescued by noble beasts.

Besides, GRRM has already done "Beauty and the Beast", I doubt he's planning a repeat. Maybe the evidence does lean more towards Jon/Arya romance, but the Sansa possibility seems more likely to me. Disagree? Fine, but don't expect to mock my thread and use strawman arguments against it and expect me to remain polite.

Not a shipper you say? The title of this thread indicates a ship. A ship that didn't happen in the the outline or sample chapters and a ship that isn't happening the ASOIAF.

Jon marrying Sansa---not happening.

[Le Cygne]

Oh Lawd I hope your not one of those that gets off on Elsa with Olaf instead...those people really scare me :uhoh:

And besides, that might get kind of cold. Brrrr...

[AllOfTheHours]

Hi everyone, I just read through most of this thread and decided to add my two cents. :)

It’s ironic, but the more I cringe at the idea of Starkcest, the more I think GRRM might do it. GRRM loves to take what makes his characters sympathetic and turn it into something monstrous. Arya and Tyrion are perfect examples of this.

In GoT, Arya’s yearning to escape gender/class divides and wield a sword made her an early favorite. However GRRM took her innocence and her sword and warped them. Now she is an experienced killer training to be an assassin. She no longer kills just to avenge her family and friends - she kills random people too - and any defense of that is weak at best.

Tyrion, who was humane to most people and used his wits rather than weapons, murders Tywin and Shae. Although Tywin and Shae betrayed him, Tyrion still murdered his father and ex-lover. If that isn’t an unforgivable taboo, I don’t know what it.

Yet, I still adore Tyrion. And I still love Arya to pieces too. I love how GRRM has the ability to make me love his characters even when he takes them into darkness.

I think the opportunity to corrupt what Jon loves most/is most defined by – his family, his honor, and his vows – by making him have the hots for “his sister” is exactly what GRRM would do. It would muck up/darken Jon’s character and challenge (if not polarize) ASoIaF fans. And Sansa is already in a weird pseudo-incest relationship with LF, where she calls him “father,” even in her thoughts, and then he kisses/molests her. So having sexual undertones in a relationship with someone she identifies as family is not even totally off base from her storyline at the moment.

So who knows? Only time will tell. But I think the argument that Jon/Sansa can’t happen because they see each other as siblings is, conversely, the strongest argument for why it could happen. What would torment Jon and Sansa more than having their Stark familial bond twisted? What would challenge us as readers more than seeing that?

[JonSnowIsKing19]

Isn't Sansa already married to Tyrion? In a different theory, isn't Tyrion possibly a Targaryen. Remember, "The Dragon has 3 heads." So can't we kind of say that Sansa is already married to a Targaryen?

[Mal Malenkirk]

If this thread is to ressurect, I'll will add that I'm starting to think HBO!Sansa has markedly better odds of ending up with Jon than Book!Sansa.

I'm probably on thin ice by just hinting at future episodes, but let's just say that means and opportunity are tantalizingly close in HBO whilst I have no idea how it'd happen anytime soon in the books on a logistical level. All that's missing is R+L=J knowledge.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I don't normally reopen closed threads of mine, but since this was probably the most popular thread I ever started, and because I was asked to, and because we have new information about GRRMs original plans for Jon Snow, I felt it would be appropriate.

Here is the link to the original thread, I will summarize the points I made.

1. It is hypothesized that GRRM hid clues regarding who Sansa would marry in The Hedge Knight which indicate that the last person she will be betrothed to is a Targaryan.

2. Sansa is the only one of the Stark children who never refers to Jon as her brother, only as her half-brother. She is more distant from him emotionally than the rest of her siblings, which would make it a lot easier to accept the idea of marrying him when she finds out he is not her half-brother.

3. Sansa speaks repeatedly about wanting to return to Winterfell, and Jon has been offered the chance to be Lord of Winterfell.

4. This union would unite the Stark and Targaryan families for the first time, tying in to the series title.

I have a few more points to add that I didn't put in my original post.

5. Sansa fantasizes about a "hero" who would cut off Janos Slynt's head, and daydreams of marrying heroic knights. Jon is her hero here.

6. We have recently been made aware that GRRM originally intended there to be a love triangle between Jon Snow, Tyrion, and Arya. This was while he still intended a 5 year gap, and we can see that a lot of aspects of Arya in his original proposal for the book series have been moved to the character of Sansa.

7. We know that Ned's parents were themselves cousins who married, showing that cousin marriage is accepted among the Starks.

So, I believe that the case that Jon Snow (or rather, Jon Targaryan) will marry Sansa Stark has been strengthened greatly by this new information. Anyone wish to continue this discussion?

Thing is, Jon is the hero of Sansa's songs in a lot of ways

But Sansa IMO will change in a way she is diametrically opposed to Jon, I actually predict there will be a Sansa/Blackfyre/SR/Blackfish/possibly Dornish anti-CoTF alliance against Jon Snow/Bloodraven/Stannis/Rickon/Bran/Howland Reed/Arya/possibly Asha/Theon Ironborn faction, it is basically a case of the old Kingdom of the Tully/Frey Riverlands is basically dead on its feet and a new Harren the Black type Kingdom of the Rivers and the Vale is set to be borne out of its ashes (instead of Rivers and the Isles) where instead of the faith of the Seven there is basically the corrupted worship of death

Jon Snow will still marry Arya IMO

The Stark and Dragon bloodlines will be linked through Sansa marrying Aegon, Aegon has the South and Malifisansa will provide the Riverlands/Vale, on the other side there will be further linking in Jon Snow with his half -dragon blood marrying his cousin Arya

For mine the writing on the Wall is that Sansa and Jon Snow will become quite serious enemies. Robbs will may become an important plot device, basically that Kingdom will be torn in half which is the point, the northern Lords will back Jons Kingship based in Winterfell but will include the Wildlings now too and the Riverlords or what's left of them will back Sansa via the Blackfish. Furthermore Sweetrobin will back Sansa. There's basically an Old Gods versus, well, the anti-Old Gods

There's a slight niggling question as to whether the Dornish would go up against Jon Snow, could be the Dornish are divided, the Daynes won't go up against it, indeed they have to give him Dawn