Star Wars Novels/Graphic Novels

[Altherion]

The main reason why people read those books is because they are all part of a bigger picture, not that they are really great (would put their best books like Thrawn trilogy, Dark Plagueis etc pretty much I think are in the level of second tier of fantasy/sci-fi books: imagine Sanderson, Abercrombie etc). And I may be generous by putting those books there. So, if you remove the big picture, all it remains is a bunch of good but not great books (when you are lucky) and some awful ones. So, I don't get why anyone should read their new stuff.

I still don't know what I will do with games, but there is a high probability that I may just avoid them. KOTOR was my favorite Star Wars piece, and there was no reason for them to de-cannon it. They did the same with TOR (an inferior game) but they still earn money from it. I think that they will become more flexible in the future and try to integrate some of the good Star Wars EU material, especially if they don't interfere with the new movies.

I've never understood this. I've occasionally read a book in a series that was mediocre because the rest of the series was good and skipping a part would cause confusion later on, but the Star Wars books aren't like that. They're not a single story and the majority are mediocre or worse so there's no reason to read them.

On the other hand, some of the games are very good and well worth playing independently of the fact that they're Star Wars. I've recently replayed KOTOR and it holds up quite well even now. On the other hand, it certainly didn't benefit from the rest of the stuff that was considered "canon" -- there apparently exists a book detailing the ending and based on the MMO (which is indeed an inferior game), the outline of the story is pretty awful. Furthermore, while KOTOR borrowed liberally from the original film trilogy and it used that material well, a lot of what made it good was relatively original (e.g. HK-47) and much of the best that it borrowed is not actually specific to Star Wars but comes from the Hero's Journey.

[Magnar of Skagos]

I watch Rebels, it is good but I don't think that it is as good as The Clone Wars. Maybe because there is a total new set of characters, for whom I don't have as much interest as I had for Anakin, Obi-Wan and to a degree - especially on the last few seasons - for Ahsoka.

Saying that, I am done with the books. I'll try to keep the constitency on my head (especially for the pre-movies eras) but there is no way that I am gonna invest anymore time and money on their books after they broke the contract with the fans. If they would have sayed that The Clone Wars isn't cannon, then I would have had the same rationalization and wouldn't bother to watch Rebels. And if they decide, that the previous movies aren't cannon, then I won't watch their new movies.

They decided things on this way (the canon) and then they decide to break the contract. I am sure that there are many people like me, who have the same feeling and so Disney/LucasFilm would lose money from them. On the other side, if they manage to make good books, then likely they will gain new readers. At the end of the day it was a business decision, for which - I, as a fan - don't agree with and so will vote with my money. And so will do a lot of other people.

The main reason why people read those books is because they are all part of a bigger picture, not that they are really great (would put their best books like Thrawn trilogy, Dark Plagueis etc pretty much I think are in the level of second tier of fantasy/sci-fi books: imagine Sanderson, Abercrombie etc). And I may be generous by putting those books there. So, if you remove the big picture, all it remains is a bunch of good but not great books (when you are lucky) and some awful ones. So, I don't get why anyone should read their new stuff.

I still don't know what I will do with games, but there is a high probability that I may just avoid them. KOTOR was my favorite Star Wars piece, and there was no reason for them to de-cannon it. They did the same with TOR (an inferior game) but they still earn money from it. I think that they will become more flexible in the future and try to integrate some of the good Star Wars EU material, especially if they don't interfere with the new movies.

/rant over.

I never really got into either of the tv series, but I did happen to see one of the final episodes where Yoda visits Korriban, and it was fantastic.

[peterbound]

I watch Rebels, it is good but I don't think that it is as good as The Clone Wars. Maybe because there is a total new set of characters, for whom I don't have as much interest as I had for Anakin, Obi-Wan and to a degree - especially on the last few seasons - for Ahsoka.

Saying that, I am done with the books. I'll try to keep the constitency on my head (especially for the pre-movies eras) but there is no way that I am gonna invest anymore time and money on their books after they broke the contract with the fans. If they would have sayed that The Clone Wars isn't cannon, then I would have had the same rationalization and wouldn't bother to watch Rebels. And if they decide, that the previous movies aren't cannon, then I won't watch their new movies.

They decided things on this way (the canon) and then they decide to break the contract. I am sure that there are many people like me, who have the same feeling and so Disney/LucasFilm would lose money from them. On the other side, if they manage to make good books, then likely they will gain new readers. At the end of the day it was a business decision, for which - I, as a fan - don't agree with and so will vote with my money. And so will do a lot of other people.

The main reason why people read those books is because they are all part of a bigger picture, not that they are really great (would put their best books like Thrawn trilogy, Dark Plagueis etc pretty much I think are in the level of second tier of fantasy/sci-fi books: imagine Sanderson, Abercrombie etc). And I may be generous by putting those books there. So, if you remove the big picture, all it remains is a bunch of good but not great books (when you are lucky) and some awful ones. So, I don't get why anyone should read their new stuff.

I still don't know what I will do with games, but there is a high probability that I may just avoid them. KOTOR was my favorite Star Wars piece, and there was no reason for them to de-cannon it. They did the same with TOR (an inferior game) but they still earn money from it. I think that they will become more flexible in the future and try to integrate some of the good Star Wars EU material, especially if they don't interfere with the new movies.

/rant over.

Not sure Ambercrombie deserves to be lumped in with Sanderson there.

[Castel]

I've never understood this. I've occasionally read a book in a series that was mediocre because the rest of the series was good and skipping a part would cause confusion later on, but the Star Wars books aren't like that. They're not a single story and the majority are mediocre or worse so there's no reason to read them.

They're all part of a shared universe. And people care about what happens in the shared universe. Some books in a series are good, some bad, some series are bad, some books good but it's all tied into one another. You cannot understand Dark Nest Trilogy without the New Jedi Order. You build up a familiarity and love of the characters and you follow it.

We should probably also separate eras. Stuff like the NJO is pretty different in structure from the Bantam works. Some of them might suck but people make it sound like all the books are like The Crystal Star. It's more like a set of episodes on your favorite show not being up to par.

Basically, you're saying that you find the idea of comic books incomprehensible since the shared universe is also important there and series are often separate.

[TheRevanchist]

Not sure Ambercrombie deserves to be lumped in with Sanderson there.

I rate both of them at around the same level, and rate both of them very highly.

Obviously different authors, Sanderson is better when it comes to story and magic system, while Abercrombie is better when it comes to characters, dialogues and prose.

[underarmsauce]

Aftermath sounds pretty intriguing based on this press release. Still more excited for Lords of the Sith this April but this sounds better than any of the other new canon books that have been released to this point.

http://www.starwars.com/news/what-happened-after-endor-find-out-in-star-wars-aftermath

[Werthead]

I disagree with this. The Thrawn trilogy sold a combined 15 million copies and it did renew interest in Star Wars. Return of the Jedi was already 10 years old and despite some bad 80s cartoons, nothing in the world of Star Wars was happening. Granted the franchise would have survived, but maybe not to the extent it is now. Who really knows. The Thrawn trilogy, though, did renew interest in Star Wars and some like Michael Kaminski, even attribute this renewed interest as a factor for Lucas carrying out the prequel trilogy.

Not really.

Lucas made the decision to allow post-RotJ material to exist because he had made the decision to film Episodes I-III and not to proceed with VII-IX. That decision seems to have been made around 1990 or so. It was also shortly after that that he gave the green light for LucasArts to start making Star Wars games, which up to that point he had disallowed in favour of original material. A year or so later he saw test footage for the CGI for Jurassic Park and realised that he could now make the prequel trilogy he had in his head as the technology had caught up.

What is interesting is how Bantam handled the situation. Heir to the Empire came out in 1991 and Dark Force Rising in 1992, and they were the only Star Wars books published in those years. Then The Last Command came out in late 1993 and was almost immediately followed by the floodgates opening and The Truce at Bakura, The Courtship of Princess Leia and the please-Kenobi-no Jedi Academy Trilogy following in short order. It certainly looks like that the Thrawn books were considered to be a testing of the waters and there was no masterplan for how to proceed, and they only did so when the books started selling like insane hot cakes.

If the Thrawn Trilogy hadn't happened, the books would probably have not been rated quite as highly. But X-Wing and all the video games still happen, and Episodes I-III definitely still happen (Coruscant has a different, and probably shittier Lucasfied, name though). But Zahn and his books did add some critical kudos to the project (helped by most of the video games also being excellent, at least at first) that was definitely unusual.

However, the success of the Thrawn Trilogy cannot be overstated. The only science fiction series which has definitively sold more than The Thrawn Trilogy - and that's the Thrawn Trilogy by itself, not including the other 200-odd books - is Dune. That is crazy.

And if you really think they're going to reboot the EU every 10 years, you are way more cynical than even I can be.

Well, they lied about it before so they will clearly continue lying about it going forwards :) And if anyone thinks that any of the new films, the spin-offs or the now-inevitable Episodes X, XI and XII that will happen 10-15 years down the line, will hesitate to contradict anything in the new books or comics, they're clearly smoking something. The "new, definitively canon Star Wars spin-off universe" will be nothing of the sort.

I'm not even sure where that comment would come from. Maybe the über geek thinks that way, but for the casual fan (which most Star Wars fans are) those books are less than insignificant.

That's an odd comment. Most of the people who have watched the films aren't fans at all, but people who just caught them on TV, or like going to the movies and those were the films that were on at the time. There's then a very casual fanbase who might have been fans when they were kids and will watch the new films with their kids for nostalgia's sake. But there's quite a substantial, large number of Star Wars fans who are at least passingly familiar with the expanded mythos, who know who Mara Jade and Grand Admiral Thrawn are and so on. It's those people who kept LucasArts afloat in the long years between films by spending over $6 billion on EU-related materials (comics, video games and novels), a sum of money which, by the way, is larger than the combined box office for the six films themselves. It those people who Lucas courted by using ideas and names originated by Zahn (and others) in the prequel films.

That Disney has decided to eliminate the prior expanded universe was, perhaps, inevitable for simple ease of use (although a clever scriptwriter could have gotten around the problems). However, the sudden rush to trivialise the impact or importance of the EU (the largest, most successful science fiction shared universe ever created) is quite baffling. The apparent belief that Disney won't do the same thing with the "new EU" the nanosecond they perceive it is in their interest is even moreso.

[Jussi]

Heir to the Empire was supposed to be an "official" continuation of Return of the Jedi. From the dust jacket text of the hardcover edition:

Here is the science fiction publishing event of the year: the exciting continuation of the legendary Star Wars saga. Picking up where the movie trilogy left off, Heir to the Empire reveals the tumultuous events that take place after the most popular series in motion-picture history — masterfully told by Hugo Award-winning author Timothy Zahn.

In spring 1977 a film called Star Wars was released — and a cultural phenomenon was born. Its epic story, about a young man named Luke Skywalker, whose destiny was to save the galaxy from conquest, caught the imaginations of millions and broke all box-office records. Today Star Wars and its sequels, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, are acknowledged as the most popular series in movie history, and rank among the top ten films of all time.

The three Star Wars films form a spectacular saga of bold imaginations and high adventure. But the stories of its characters did not end there. Now for the first time, Lucasfilm Ltd., producer of the Star Wars movies, has authorized the continuation of this beloved story. In an astounding three-book cycle, Timothy Zahn continues the tale of Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, and the other characters made world famous by Star Wars, as he brilliantly expands upon George Lucas's stunning vision, "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away."

[sologdin]

why are fans so jittery about what is 'canonical'? even in religious debate--wherein 'canonical' is actually significant and has consequences, because the basic assumption of the discourse is that some of this stuff is fucking true but perdition hangs on untruth--non-canonical texts are nevertheless taken very seriously, such as the jewish apocrypha and the deuterocanonicals in catholic scripture.

[Castel]

why are fans so jittery about what is 'canonical'? even in religious debate--wherein 'canonical' is actually significant and has consequences, because the basic assumption of the discourse is that some of this stuff is fucking true but perdition hangs on untruth--non-canonical texts are nevertheless taken very seriously, such as the jewish apocrypha and the deuterocanonicals in catholic scripture.

Because, for the past few decades, something being canon was a good predictor of if you would get more of that thing or if it would fade into oblivion. Whether the work or event would form a foundation for other works (creating continuity, a major draw of massive series) or be irrelevant shit.

That is, in fact, still the case (which is why Disney trashed all canon instead of making it a free for all). So obviously it will be a contentious thing.

[sologdin]

but why not hold two separate things in the mind simultaneously, such as when reading the A-text and the B-text of marlowe's faustus, or as with the silmarillion and the book of lost tales?

[Hello World]

but why not hold two separate things in the mind simultaneously

That’s unheard of - apart from some far-antique legends.

[Castel]

but why not hold two separate things in the mind simultaneously, such as when reading the A-text and the B-text of marlowe's faustus, or as with the silmarillion and the book of lost tales?

Because there aren't two things. Tolkien's work is done and he could never match the output of the SW stable anyway. This is where the comparisons break down.

A better comparison is having a TV series change or drop entire plotlines come the season premiere. Those plots, the characterization and mechanics that they depended on may just be gone. It's not two equal interpretations that have been resolved. One dies and one goes on.

[Magnar of Skagos]

I read Heir to the Empire, but honestly with what I have heard of it, I was expecting.... more. It was a fun read and I enjoyed it, but the story was not anything special or unique to me. Or perhaps I should finish the entire trilogy, as it may be one of those tales where you need to have read all the parts to truly appreciate it.

[Jaxom 1974]

So is the problem that Lucas declared the novels and games canon? Despite the every present possibility that there could be more movies or shows ? Creating a fandom who carries the expectations that future film and/or television projects would follow that established blueprint?

This is why I prefer the Trek model. Write an expanded universe of novels and e-books, but do so under the fact that when they're is another movie or show, the expanded novels need to adjust and reset to follow new canon.

[Magnar of Skagos]

So is the problem that Lucas declared the novels and games canon? Despite the every present possibility that there could be more movies or shows ? Creating a fandom who carries the expectations that future film and/or television projects would follow that established blueprint?

This is why I prefer the Trek model. Write an expanded universe of novels and e-books, but do so under the fact that when they're is another movie or show, the expanded novels need to adjust and reset to follow new canon.

Or they could atleast just dub the events post-RotJ non-canonical and leave the hundreds of thousands of pre-movies material as canon, as it does not interfere with the Sequel Trilogy, which is only depicting events in the future.

[Castel]

So is the problem that Lucas declared the novels and games canon? Despite the every present possibility that there could be more movies or shows ? Creating a fandom who carries the expectations that future film and/or television projects would follow that established blueprint?

This is why I prefer the Trek model. Write an expanded universe of novels and e-books, but do so under the fact that when they're is another movie or show, the expanded novels need to adjust and reset to follow new canon.

The works did adjust to new canon. There was an understanding that they'd have to be congruent with current canon, with whatever is in the films being unquestionably canon and all the EU works having a hierarchy. Works had to be rewritten or dropped when Lucas changed things.

Lucas making new shows was never a threat to the canon system as a whole, it was more flexible than that. Individual bits of canon could be gone and it would tick on. I mean, that's the entire point of the hierarchy that was created.

The "problem" is just that we were asked why we wouldn't commit to a new EU or keep two separate EUs in mind and the answer was given. I don't know if we need to dig in and find some structural problem that caused this situation. It's all really simple: Disney wants to mine the series in all directions and want to be able to plot it out the way they want. So they drop the current canon which was really dense around the times they want to make films in and might confuse a ton of new fans. Some of us who were following the current canon have no interest in the new canon since they were invested in the old characters and have no idea when the next reboot will come. It's completely reasonable on all sides.

Also: from what I understand aren't all ST novels non-canon anyway? What effect does this have on works that don't match the current canon of the shows? Would you be able to do something like a 23-book series based on previous canon? Or do they follow the Bantam model of a trilogy here, a trilogy there, loosely connected, bouncing around in the darkspots of the canon timeline?

[Jaxom 1974]

That's the point of my question. Trek is non canon. Novels have to roll with new screen material when it comes out regardless of what the editorial staff and the writers had attempted to do.

Because all of this Star Wars material started from a position of being canon, that's where folks who are dedicated to the novels feel disconnected with the removal of the material? If Lucas hadn't declared it to be canon, a dozen books about the New Jedi Order (or whatever the length) becomes a fun "what if" romp instead of something akin to losing a child or something...bad analogy, but it's early.

Trek editors and writers have done an extensive job expanding the post DS9 and Nemesis world, but if another show comes along and brings back the Borg, I just hope it's done in a manner that makes me want to forget the non canon stuff had a pretty good take on it.

[Castel]

That's the point of my question. Trek is non canon. Novels have to roll with new screen material when it comes out regardless of what the editorial staff and the writers had attempted to do.

That's the point I was making: so did the Star Wars stuff. Authors have left because they would have been forced to rewrite their works to fit the new canon and change plotlines in G-level (i..e done by Lucas).

There's no scenario in which writers didn't have to adapt to the new works Lucas put out. He's like the Pope, he has a default assumption in his favor whenever there's an issue of contradictions in canon; if it's in the films or TV shows everything else must conform.

This isn't a case of SW writers not being able to conform to the new films. It's a case of the new films not wanting to deal with the current canon at all. Which, again, is reasonable but the characterization here gives the wrong impression.

Because all of this Star Wars material started from a position of being canon, that's where folks who are dedicated to the novels feel disconnected with the removal of the material? If Lucas hadn't declared it to be canon, a dozen books about the New Jedi Order (or whatever the length) becomes a fun "what if" romp instead of something akin to losing a child or something...bad analogy, but it's early.

No. It would never have existed in the first place.

First off, it depends on a bunch of other series which are themselves compliant (well...kinda) with canon. If there wasn't a canon we have no idea what would have come out or how they'd have sustained such a huge work. It works because it can draw on a set timeline. And it's just one point on a timeline anyway. The works that come after are probably even more fucked, because how could they exist without it?

Wert might make this argument better than me but, without HTT and the idea that that work and the work that followed were canon continuations you might never have gotten NJO.

I think there's a bit of cultural dissonance here which is why I asked how ST do their canon. Because, if they did it like Bantam sometimes did, with a trilogy here, and a trilogy there, rarely interacting with each other (though nominally canon) will be a completely different way of doing canon.

The NJO was 23 books, and it fed into the Dark Nest Trilogy which fed into the 9 book Legacy of the Force which fed into the 9-book Fate of the Jedi. It's not a what-if romp because it's not some self-contained work, it didn't end. It was a continuous thing, like a TV show. All of a sudden everything past season 2 is dead and we're starting fresh. Well...okay but what about that character introduced in S5 that I liked? Oh, his plot is not going to be completed? Ouch.

[underarmsauce]

Canon or non canon has little to no bearing for me. I understand and empathize with those who were upset by the discarding of the EU and the money and time they invested into those books and storyline. I get that, at the time, books like Labyrinth of Evil were promoted as the official prequel to Revenge of the Sith. It still doesn't change the fact, for me personally, that if I enjoy the book, I'll read it and not view it as any less, despite its non canon categorization. If the book is good, read the book for your enjoyment. Who cares if Disney says it doesn't count. If these new books in the official canon story line are good, read them as well. I don't reall understand some of these individuals who are refusing to read them as a form of protest for the trashing of the old EU, which was a convoluted mess since new Jedi Order and even before hand with some old Bantam material. Those books are still out there, available to buy for your enjoyment. They haven't been taken away from you at all. Bottom line, for me, if you enjoy the book then read it and who cares if a company says it doesn't matter. It takes nothing away from you or the enjoyment of the book. Just as these new books don't add anything to my enjoyment cause they are official. New Dawn was enjoyable. Tarkin was so so and Heir to the Jedi sucked. Legend tag or not.

Also the rebooting has been a drastic improvement with the comics in my opinion. Both the new Star Wars comics and the Darth Vader comics have been superb so far.

Also, even though they are classified as Legend material, I really believe Disney won't even open the door to adding new material to prequel era. They seem to have no desire to touch that material and those books will be the "official" storyline for that era. The only book that is coming out in that era is the book to tie up Ventress' storyline from the clone wars show.