Lyanna Stark Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 As a dudebro, I find this post offensive.And in our last newsletter, I read that it's now ok to like romance, so you can't level that at us anymore. Hahaha, are you sure you didn't just lose the dudebro cred? :P Ewwww Lyanna has the cooties! She been reading romance! As you have pointed out I think a big problem (more recently) is the slew of absolute romantic trash that is dominating the e-book markets. As much as us Dudebro's are like ewwwww you Ladygirls? are lapping this stuff up! I think the teenage girl reading culture has to answer for this but you know what? At least people are reading! :) Anyhow not to get into a gender and stereotyping discussion online as we all know how those play out. Now you have offended Peterbound - shame on you! Well, I guess that depends what you mean with "this stuff". I mean, are we talking Twilight or are we talking more Ilona Andrews/Patricia Briggs stuff? Because those two are very different beasts. On the one hand you have the extremely reactionary stuff like Twilight, which is essentially confirming extremely sexist and patriarchal values, and then you have the UF writers who are on a sliding scale but in general employ at the very least heroines with more agency, more sex positive views and overall, a more progressive view on women's role in society. Twilight is essentially conforming wish fullfilment, while some of the newer UF et al explore themes that are more progressive and feature both a consistent female gaze and themes of female empowerment and agency (not always well executed, mind you, but it's quite different from Twilight anyway). EDIT: Also, I am kinda an expert on the crap e-book thing as Amazon keeps throwing the Worst things at me through recommendations. And then I make it worse for myself by clicking on them too, cos you know, I am just dying to know. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 just read the morte d'arthur. it's got noblebrights and grimdarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Lol. Lyanna after my recent questioning about Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy you should know better asking me what I mean by "this stuff". I am just using the term in a very general way for the general cootie ridden literature which plagues the ebook market in general! :) I jest. Having never had any interest to read Twilight - or anything romant-icky it probably misses the mark with me anyway. I would recommend you stop clicking random things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reckoner Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The Broken Empire: A lost heir seeks to reclaim his throne and does battle with an evil supernatural king. Author's name is Mark Lawrence. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 just read the morte d'arthur. it's got noblebrights and grimdarks. :cheers: Also, for all of it, the Nuestrian Cycle by Leslie Barringer. I'm always reccing this trilogy, written in the same era as Tolkien's material, but not at all the same. For one thing, the fantasy world is based on French history and geography, not English. For another, the Hero / Protagonist, of the final volume is a girl who grows into her young womanhood in the course of the adventures. There's amply grimdark in these books, but there is also nobility and heroism -- heroism at all levels of a medieval society, which is one of the elements that differs these books from the great Romances of the 13th century that provide some of the models for his books along with the popular adventure fiction of the time. They are very well written. The titles of the three books are Gerfalcon, Joris of the Rock and The Shy Leopardess. There's a wiki for the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Lol. Lyanna after my recent questioning about Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy you should know better asking me what I mean by "this stuff". I am just using the term in a very general way for the general cootie ridden literature which plagues the ebook market in general! :) I jest. Having never had any interest to read Twilight - or anything romant-icky it probably misses the mark with me anyway.Haha, well, like in SFF-land, there is a lot of formulaic stuff. That doesn't mean all of it is awful though, or soulrendingly awful! Some is, some is mediocre and some is great. I mean, someone like Bujold includes a lot of romantic elements. The Curse of Chalion is pretty romantic and contains a lot of romantic elements, but it's not a straight up romance, yet it's certainly one of the main themes. It's fairly far away from The pirate prince's secret baby and Twilight, but that doesn't take away its romantic elements either. It also depends what you put into the word "romance", since to me, I approach romance from literature, meaning to me it's Sturm und Drang, Heathcliffe and Catherine, Jane Eyre etc. more than it is the Disney take or "Sleepless in Seattle" or "Pretty Woman". In general, I really loathe the Hollywoodisation of romance, which makes everything sugary sweet and removes the intenstity, the passion and the depth of it all. I would recommend you stop clicking random things!Sometimes it works out superbly!! Other times, perhaps not so well. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 The Broken Empire: A lost heir seeks to reclaim his throne and does battle with an evil supernatural king. Author's name is Mark Lawrence. Enjoy!Ha. Except for all the raping, murder, and bad language. It may fit the bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I dunno that part in Prince of Thorns with the spaceship really threw me off. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Isn't the opposite of grimdark cheerfulbright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 just read the morte d'arthur. it's got noblebrights and grimdarks. Probably more superfluous deaths in Le Morte d'Arthur than in Bakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindly Old Man Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 No? Really, I think this is a very common dudebro complaint. OMG ewh, the romance cooties. Of course, there is a lot of shit romance, but apparently it is worse when shite romance like Twilight becomes famous than when shite Fantasy like Paolini , Eddings or WoT become famous. Considering this site has 54 threads devoted to bashing Goodkind alone, this quote seems disingenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Haha, well, like in SFF-land, there is a lot of formulaic stuff. That doesn't mean all of it is awful though, or soulrendingly awful! Some is, some is mediocre and some is great. I mean, someone like Bujold includes a lot of romantic elements. The Curse of Chalion is pretty romantic and contains a lot of romantic elements, but it's not a straight up romance, yet it's certainly one of the main themes. It's fairly far away from The pirate prince's secret baby and Twilight, but that doesn't take away its romantic elements either. Yeah I suppose. I remember romance in Cordelias Honour and through a few of the Vorkosigan Saga as well. Space opera in general often seems to have a romantic sub plot now that I think about it. The werewolf and the Barbie doll really pushed the boat out though, kind of a bit weird. Sometimes it works out superbly!! Other times, perhaps not so well. :P I burst out laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow, and ThornLloyd Alexanders - Chronicles of PrydainT.H. White - The Once and Future KingSusan Cooper - The Dark RisingGarth Nix - AbhorsenUrsula K. Le Guin - Earthsea Cycle I guess I just ruined my reputation on this forum, but I love those books.Naw, those are all great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 How about the Book of Isle series by Nancy Springer?* *Admittedly it is 25 years since I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houndhelm Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 David Gemmell He does the romance, triumph of good over evil and didactic heroism stories better than anyone, while still retaining a gritty, somewhat pessimistic depiction of general humanity at the same time. Best author I have ever read. Gemmell is the opposite of 'grim dark' in my opinion. He was really good at writing a good old fashioned story about love, honor, heroism, sacrifice, courage and compassion, etc. He was also good at the somewhat hypocritical trick of condemning violence, while writing awesome violent fight scenes for the reader to enjoy (I'm a hypocrite too, in this respect). His stories are full of genuine emotion, not cynicism, and he is the only fantasy author which has had made me tear up while reading. That said, I think his work is kind of uneven. He wrote a TON of books and I don't think all of them are that good, especially the early ones. I would 100% recommend the Rigante and Troy series, and just kind of recommend the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crom Dubh Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 just read the morte d'arthur. it's got noblebrights and grimdarks. Plebian. Real enthusiasts read the Tain Bo Cualinge. Empowered female characters with agency, sex-positive in the extreme, and more magical realism than you can shake a chariot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I'm going to tack on my book rec request here. Its kind of similar to the OP's, but not exactly: I too would like to read something optimistic (doesn't matter if it is Fantasy or SciFi, though). Not in the sense that everything is right in the world, or even that there is clear good and evil (that's kind of a huge turn off, usually); just that even in a sucky world, some of the major characters at least are people who are genuinely hopeful and working towards something better. Kind of like a West Wing feel, except maybe tone down the sanctimonious speeches, and definitely have better female characters. Because you know what? Generally well meaning people who succeed somewhat in a world filled with injustice and horror isn't unrealistic. Fantasies that pretend otherwise are just as bad as the stuff that has been directed at SWMs for decades. In general, I'm very happy the books avoid the whitewashing of protagonists that we usually see in TV and movies. But I think well written fantasy of the past few decades have taken things the other way. I'm not satisfied to live in a time when Brandon Sanderson is one of the few examples of optimistic fantasy authors, because his shortcomings with dialogue and characterization mean that that optimism comes across as formulaic, and not as a complex state of being that is just as interesting to read about as world weary cynicism. To give an example of what I'd like, one that most here should get, imagine a slightly different Tyrion. Still snarky and clever and living in a world that isn't fair to him. But not in a story that takes perverse pleasure in mutilating him and giving him the worst options all the time. People with complicated lives and less than perfect morals can still be genuinely optimistic. And that's hard to write, but its like writers took a collective pledge to forget such a thing exists. GG Kay tends to fit what I'm talking about, to an extent. As for what the first poster requested, wouldn't Rothfuss's Kingkiller Chronicles work well as a recommendation? You have the "good guys", some of them are complete douches, and then there are clearly evil characters in the books. There's wonder and weird stuff (which is always nice to have), and also a (nauseating) True Love romance, though it looks to be set for a tragic end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 To give an example of what I'd like, one that most here should get, imagine a slightly different Tyrion. Still snarky and clever and living in a world that isn't fair to him. But not in a story that takes perverse pleasure in mutilating him and giving him the worst options all the time. People with complicated lives and less than perfect morals can still be genuinely optimistic. And that's hard to write, but its like writers took a collective pledge to forget such a thing exists. This exists, almost 100% and is called the Vorkosigan saga by Bujold. The dwarf who doesn't get totally mutilated, who is very clever and chivalrous and complex and optimistic and funny is called Miles. It's SF, not Fantasy, but still fits your description to a T. Plebian. Real enthusiasts read the Tain Bo Cualinge. Empowered female characters with agency, sex-positive in the extreme, and more magical realism than you can shake a chariot at. Oh, now i REALLY want to see sologdin shake a chariot at something or somebody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 This exists, almost 100% and is called the Vorkosigan saga by Bujold. The dwarf who doesn't get totally mutilated, who is very clever and chivalrous and complex and optimistic and funny is called Miles. It's SF, not Fantasy, but still fits your description to a T. Miles Vorkosigan is Tyrion Lannister as raised by a family that loves him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 It also depends what you put into the word "romance", since to me, I approach romance from literature, meaning to me it's Sturm und Drang, Heathcliffe and Catherine, Jane Eyre etc. more than it is the Disney take or "Sleepless in Seattle" or "Pretty Woman". In general, I really loathe the Hollywoodisation of romance, which makes everything sugary sweet and removes the intenstity, the passion and the depth of it all. That's a key point, because "romance" will usually be interpreted as late 20th/21st crap romance, which is very often appalling, and not the more 18th/19th pre-/romantic stuff, like Werther. Of course, one can always go back to the good old classics. If you want True Love, it's hard to beat Tristan and Iseult :P Then there's Beowulf, Aeneis, Odyssey, Gilgamesh, Arthurian Cycle, full of epic stuff, good and bad (and grey depending on the book), quite often true love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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