GRRM considering big twist for a major character

[Mithras]

Between Moqorro, Euron and Tyrion, I don't expect Victarion to get much joy from a dragon (or from the attempt to get one, depending on how far Martin lets him come). Moqorro has a double agenda (the "glory" he sees in his visions is unlikely to be something Victarion will like when it actually happens), Euron has been setting him up for something (I suspect he is following in "Silence", having left behind an impostor in the Reach) and Tyrion would easily have his measure if there would be a conflict.

Moqorro considered Euron as a great threat to the messiah of his faith. There is no way he would let any harm come to her from Euron. That is why he intercepted Victarion and changed the allegiance of the horn. Moreover, he healed Victarion and now Victarion believes in the Red God too. Victarion is a perfect tool for him. Why should he kill him?

And it is extremely crackpot to argue that Silence might be following Victarion secretly. Apart from the logistics of such a twist, Moqorro would instantly notify Victarion about it.

I think Tyrion and Victarion will stick together and make a double team. Tyrion wants the Casterly Rock and with Dany missing, his best chance to survive and get back is to stick with the guy with ships. Moreover, he will lust for dragons and his horn. Tyrion also does not want to pay the gold he promised to the Second Sons. So, he will try to have Brown Ben killed, take the leadership of the Second Sons and join forces with Victarion. Another reason is that they all know the Volantene Fleet is coming. So, they should either run away fast or stay and come up with a plan to defeat them.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Moqorro considered Euron as a great threat to the messiah of his faith. There is no way he would let any harm come to her from Euron. That is why he intercepted Victarion and changed the allegiance of the horn. Moreover, he healed Victarion and now Victarion believes in the Red God too. Victarion is a perfect tool for him. Why should he kill him?

And it is extremely crackpot to argue that Silence might be following Victarion secretly. Apart from the logistics of such a twist, Moqorro would instantly notify Victarion about it.

I think Tyrion and Victarion will stick together and make a double team. Tyrion wants the Casterly Rock and with Dany missing, his best chance to survive and get back is to stick with the guy with ships. Moreover, he will lust for dragons and his horn. Tyrion also does not want to pay the gold he promised to the Second Sons. So, he will try to have Brown Ben killed, take the leadership of the Second Sons and join forces with Victarion. Another reason is that they all know the Volantene Fleet is coming. So, they should either run away fast or stay and come up with a plan to defeat them.

Tyrion also saw the Iron Fleet lay waste to Lannisport. That specific memory might trigger him to support Victarion.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Since the episodes ended up being leaked, I refrained from replying to my own topic until after the 4th episode actually came out. I haven't read the hundreds of responses yet but

now that Barristan is dead in the show, I think the twist involves him and possibly revealing something important about his past to someone else before he dies.

[Reisz]

Since the episodes ended up being leaked, I refrained from replying to my own topic until after the 4th episode actually came out. I haven't read the hundreds of responses yet but

now that Barristan is dead in the show, I think the twist involves him and possibly revealing something important about his past to someone else before he dies.

I think you're probably right.

[Amris]

Between Moqorro, Euron and Tyrion, I don't expect Victarion to get much joy from a dragon (or from the attempt to get one, depending on how far Martin lets him come). Moqorro has a double agenda (the "glory" he sees in his visions is unlikely to be something Victarion will like when it actually happens), Euron has been setting him up for something (I suspect he is following in "Silence", having left behind an impostor in the Reach) and Tyrion would easily have his measure if there would be a conflict.

bryndenbfish has this theory on his blog. It makes for a very interesting read regardless of whether one agrees with it or not. Aside from the Vic/Euron puzzle it also covers Barristan:

https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/a-dragon-dawn-a-complete-analysis-of-the-upcoming-battle-of-fire-conclusion-fire-and-blood/

I have the same problem with this theory that Mithras has:

1) I do not understand how a viking longship of all things is supposed to secretly follow another viking longship on a travel of essentially over a whole ocean without losing it or being spotted in the process. That's an impossible feat IMO. So that rules the Silence out. Unless we entertain the idea that Euron's Quarthian sorcerors have some sort of ship-shadowing magic. Through glass candles for instance. Even then it'd be near-miraculous navigation to pop up at exactly the right time during the upcoming batte. A viking longship isn't an aircraft after all. It has very limited top speed, seaworthiness and navigational instruments - and arriving at exactly the right destination at exactly the right time (and not say: a day later or earlier or 50 miles down or up the coast) after a travel of thousands of miles seems unlikely even if you know where you are going and get very lucky with the weather.

2) Euron could not have foreseen the interference by Moqorro.

So if we seriously consider Euron outplaying Victarion we have to address these two issues.

We could circumvent problem 1) if we assumed that Euron is not travelling on the Silence but is instead in fact hidden on one of Victarion's ships. The most extreme spot for him to be would be the crackpot idea that Euron is the Dusky Woman. A little too crackpot for me though. But Euron admittedly could be on one of the other ships of the fleet. That would still be a very risky and hard-to-pull-off move though. AND then one would wonder: If Euron planned to go to Meereen why did he send Victarion in the first place? And take the risk of being discovered and disposed of by his brother - when he could have taken command of the expedition himself?

As to problem 2) we don't really know Moqorro's plans.

So I think it is theoretically possible he simply does not care which Greyjoy brother grabs the dragon and sees no reason to warn Victarion - or he in fact does foresee something bad happening to Vic but does not tell him because it goes together well with his own plans. Or he does not warn him because he knows full well Vic has the bad habit of shooting the messenger - or thowing the messenger overboard rather - if the message does not please him.

To me personally all this makes more sense if one assumes that Euron never planned on getting a dragon and simply came up with a convenient story to send his unloved bro and his bro's followers - which are a threat to Euron's rule - on a fool's errand in a galaxy far, far away from which they hopefully never return.

The issue I have with my own reasoning is that I dunno if that would make for a good story. It may be logical but it sounds a bit lame. Getting a dragon and all that sounds way more awesome, especially if one adds the twist of Euron suddenly popping up and snatching it out of Vic's burned claw, roasting him in the process.

So I think bryndenbfish has a point even though I can't really see how it would be pulled off in a logical way that does not overstrain suspension of disbelief.

[Veltigar]

snip

I have a little alternative theory. I'm convinced that Euron wants something related to dragons (either an actuel dragon or something related) and to get it he has sent an agent with Victarion. None other than the Dusky Woman, whom I believeto be the FM who killed Balon (whether or not that means that Euron has an alliance with the FM or just with a few rogue ones I don't know).

There are some textual clues. Victarion himself says that his brother's gifts are poison (which is where he got her from), the DW is clearly upset when Moqorro is introduced, she actually hisses at him (probably because she forsees that he might interfere with her plans). Lastly, when Moqorro is about to cure Victarion's arm, he says that Victaion's death is in the room. Victarion thinks that this refers to his infected arm, but I venture a guess that what Moqorro actually intended was the DW, who was present in the room at the time.

[HexMachina]

I have a little alternative theory. I'm convinced that Euron wants something related to dragons (either an actuel dragon or something related) and to get it he has sent an agent with Victarion. None other than the Dusky Woman, whom I believeto be the FM who killed Balon (whether or not that means that Euron has an alliance with the FM or just with a few rogue ones I don't know).

There are some textual clues. Victarion himself says that his brother's gifts are poison (which is where he got her from), the DW is clearly upset when Moqorro is introduced, she actually hisses at him (probably because she forsees that he might interfere with her plans). Lastly, when Moqorro is about to cure Victarion's arm, he says that Victaion's death is in the room. Victarion thinks that this refers to his infected arm, but I venture a guess that what Moqorro actually intended was the DW, who was present in the room at the time.

I agree with you, but do you happen to have any ideas on why Moqorro wouldn't say the Dusky Woman was responsible?

[nickdt]

I agree with you, but do you happen to have any ideas on why Moqorro wouldn't say the Dusky Woman was responsible?

Because the DW would have killed both Victarion and Moqorro. Moqorro is not the moron, Vic is.

[Veltigar]

I agree with you, but do you happen to have any ideas on why Moqorro wouldn't say the Dusky Woman was responsible?

Several reasons. Perhaps he was affraid of what the DW would do if he told on her as nickdt said. Or perhaps Moqorro knew that Victarion would not believe him and therefore kept silent. Or more likely, Moqorro has his own plans with Victarion's death. He saw something in his fires and he was basically mocking Vic throughout that conversation. Victarion wants to know about his great destiny and Moqorro tells him exactly what he wants to know (only with a really sinister undertone that we as readers get, while Victarion remains oblivious).

[chris999]

I think it will involve Barristan Selmy. Due to the clue that he said the Show cannot do it... because the show just killed Barristan.

[TheHeirToDorne]

But there are several dead or unwritten characters, hundreds of roads not taken in the show. Truly it could be anything.

I hope it invalidates R+L=J, personally

[Maester Barth]

He doesn't even know what happens yet? Does he know how it ends? Jesus, George, just read these forums and PICK AN ENDING! Hell, A Dream of Spring could be a choose your own story book. Just give us closure already.

[HexMachina]

He doesn't even know what happens yet? Does he know how it ends? Jesus, George, just read these forums and PICK AN ENDING! Hell, A Dream of Spring could be a choose your own story book. Just give us closure already.

He didnt say he doesnt know the ending at all. He has always been clear that he knows the broad outline, the start and end points, but things develop along the way. This is simply one of those developments

[barristan-b]

What makes this fun to think about is that GRRM could've been writing a chapter and all of a sudden realized a reveal that could tie things together that's both a big twist and made a lot of sense. I'm leaning towards something in Westeros but don't think it's a parentage situation.

[Amris]

Maybe he just came up with the Blackfyre theory and the possibility to make Aegon fake. :drunk:

He isn't following the forums after all.

[Brother Seamus]

Barristan's death on the show, which GRRM would have been aware of, catapults him to the top of the list.

[Anima]

Personally I hope it's Asha. The wannabe pirate queen is one of my favourite characters in the book and she's been completely altered in the series. Really, there are a lot of holes in the Iron Islands region. They've got their own mythology and legends. A relation to another type of "dragon" that seems to be more akin to a sea serpent. Then again they speak of living fire and whatnot so... But they were once strong enough to challenge this "dragon" apparently named Naga in the sea, on her own territory. It would be a shame if that lineage never played a part (different from being captives or Reek) in the epic struggle that's coming.

The thing is I get the feeling GRRM's talking about a character he kinda left on the side. And though she hasn't acomplished much in the last book (she's basically gone through defeat after defeat and is now a captive with little on her side), she's getting close to her brother who's also a captive in the same place. But will they somehow escape together? And even if they do where will they go? They can't go back to the Iron Islands, Asha has been humiliated and married against her will and Theon has betrayed his fellow Ironmen to the Bolton. They would hardly be welcome to the south where their Uncle is mounting an attack on Hightown. I think they'll manage to escape and somehow lose themselves in the North. They'll probably go towards the sea so I would guess Sea Dragon Point which as it's been told in the books is mostly deserted might be the place for them to hide. One must admit the name of the place seems quite prophetic. The thing is what will happen there if there's going to be a big twist? Maybe they'll meet up with Aeron? Maybe Asha's mother will come out of her trance and find her children there?

GRRM seems to already have something planned for the lady unfortunately. And knowing the man it's not going to be pretty...

Anyway right now the focus of the story is on the Starks, Daenerys, The Lannisters, Stannis, the Iron Islanders and more and more the Martells. The Arryns and the Tyrrels are only seen through others POV which indicates they aren't as central to the story.

The Starks are slowly rising they've been from the end of the first book with a few necessary hiccups (Red Wedding) to keep things plausible and interesting. Daenerys probably won't be back in Westeros by the end of the next book if ever... The Lannisters are falling from grace just as the Starks are rising though some seem intent on repenting. Stannis.... not interesting... to me anyway. The Martells are preparing for war.

The Iron Islanders are as I've said kinda left on the side. They've got their POV's but they always are on the sidelines. They're almost always used to show something else rather than something focused on them. We've seen the Kingsmoot to introduce the shift of power there and the dreadful character of Euron. So far Asha is a captive, Theon is a captive, Aerion is nowhere to be found, Victarion is a side character intended to bring the horn and the red priest to Daenerys... Man I've gone too long on this but basically it's about time they got something happening about them different than as carrier's or observers.

[Cubicz]

Barristan's death on the show, which GRRM would have been aware of, catapults him to the top of the list.

He will die a knight-- A NAKED knight

:(

[Masha]

I am wondering how anyone can think that Victarion would be able to cooperate and work with Dany?

His whole culture, his whole life, his entire thought process in previous book describes how he feels toward women including Asha, his own niece. He never recognized her as a warrior/captain, he actually thought that she should have been married long time ago instead of pretending to be a captain and trying out in the kingsmoot! He could never be second to a Queen, even Mother of Dragons. He would think to conquer her, steal her power and dragons and then take her for his wife by force if necessary! That's the way of Iron Born.

If there is any help that Victarion can give to Dany's cause would be in her absence or in spite of himself. He is freaking King of Misogynists. Even if Euron is a despicable crazy, he is still tricky enough to pretend to bow to Dany and fake out his subservience, Victarian is too stupid for that too!

It would require drastic turn around for his character - ala Jaime's journey Brianne and through Riverlands - its good book a half for him.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

I am wondering how anyone can think that Victarion would be able to cooperate and work with Dany?

His whole culture, his whole life, his entire thought process in previous book describes how he feels toward women including Asha, his own niece. He never recognized her as a warrior/captain, he actually thought that she should have been married long time ago instead of pretending to be a captain and trying out in the kingsmoot! He could never be second to a Queen, even Mother of Dragons. He would think to conquer her, steal her power and dragons and then take her for his wife by force if necessary! That's the way of Iron Born.

If there is any help that Victarion can give to Dany's cause would be in her absence or in spite of himself. He is freaking King of Misogynists. Even if Euron is a despicable crazy, he is still tricky enough to pretend to bow to Dany and fake out his subservience, Victarian is too stupid for that too!

It would require drastic turn around for his character - ala Jaime's journey Brianne and through Riverlands - its good book a half for him.

After lifetimes without dragons, who knows what kind of impact seeing one burning men alive would have on a man. Especially if Dany promises to roast Euron alive.