GRRM considering big twist for a major character

[Steelborn]

Theon has a penis.

[Johnny Snowball]

God he just needs to finish this mother so we can read it.

[Chilli]

Personally I would rule out R+ L = J since it was suspected to be a thing long before the show even started. Fans would see it coming from a mile away.

I suspect the twist involves a secondary character that was either killed off, heavily altered, or cut out entirely from the show and their relation to a primary one.

Primary Suspects:

Tysha reemerging

Septa Lemore's identity, identity of any of her offspring

Jeyne Westerling's wolf cub

Old Nan and the origin of the word Hodor

Patchface, who Melisandre sees in her flames as a threat

Howland Reed's whereabouts

Edric/Gendry situation. Gendric?

The more "outlandish" ones:

Euron is already part of Dany's court. Euron Crow's Eye = Daario Naharis of the Stormcrows?

Howland Reed = High Sparrow

Tysha can still re-emerge in the show, Tyrion mentioned her when he met Shae. I would love it if she would.

Septa Lemore and Howland Reed can still be introduced next season, they haven't done much in the books either.

Gendry can take over Edric's role if necessary.

But Jeyne Westerling can be a possibility or maybe Patchface.

[King17]

How about theon asha stannis

[King17]

I doubt it is bran he is not in season 5 so I do not think they have made that many decisions about him

[NotSoSilentSister]

"a couple of decisions that will preclude it" - so I think it concerns a character who is (still) in the show, because "including/not including" and "killing off/not killing off" is exactly one decision, not a couple of them.

I would focus on things that are ambiguous in the books and already clarified one way or another in the show (eg. the question of Theon's castration; whether or not Stannis actually sleeps with Melisandre).

[mushroomshirt]

I would focus on things that are ambiguous in the books and already clarified one way or another in the show (eg. the question of Theon's castration; whether or not Stannis actually sleeps with Melisandre).

I don't think it is ambiguous that Stannis and Mel get it on in the books. She pretty much says this to Jon in Dance.

Now I'm of the opinion that Theon got his penis chopped off but not his balls. Because as reek he thinks "the only took some fingers and toes and that other thing" (not an exact quote except for the "other thing" part). If he were castrated I think he would think "those other things".

There is no other topic of discussion that makes me realize that I have an unhealthy obsession with these books than discussing the state of Theon's genitals :(

[sj4iy]

My guess is Ser Barristan. He seems the perfect candidate with which to do something interesting in the books.

[sleath56]

My guess is Ser Barristan. He seems the perfect candidate with which to do something interesting in the books.

After tonight, guess it's likely Barristan.

[Mithras]

Barristan is toast in TWoW. I don't think he will get another POV other than the ones revealed.

[nickdt]

My guess is Ser Barristan. He seems the perfect candidate with which to do something interesting in the books.

Its Barristan. Its known. People predict he dies, but after watching the new episode, i kinda have a feeling Barristan stays alive till the end and maybe takes down the Nights King.

[alienarea]

What about Benjen?

GRRM "always" said we would find out what happened to him.

[Wouter]

Barristan is toast in TWoW. I don't think he will get another POV other than the ones revealed.

Barristan could survive the battle. GRRM may want to reduce the number of POV's (Victarion is quite likely to die inn TWOW IMO), but Barristan may have information to share with Dany yet, or he could play a role as reputation-enhancer for Dany when she returns to Westeros. Show-Dany may not have the same need for that as (f)Aegon apparently isn't in the show, and if Varys is truly on her side in the show he could give her info that Barristan could give in the books.

I don't see any smoking gun foreshadowing that Barristan will not survive the battle with the Yunkai (or a possible clash with Victarion and co). He might fall, he might not.

[bdub32689]

I think declining to write episodes is a sign that he and the show are diverging. Also, GRRM is careful to distance himself from changes in the show in his episode commentaries - for example the castration of Theon. In the earlier seasons he seemed begrudged that even the colors of cloaks and armor designs had been changed.

Also, the fact that until very recently GRRM was speculating during interviews about the length of the show and possibility of movies in ways that conflicted with D&D on the subject made it seem clear that he was out of the inner circle.

I agree with most of this but He has stated many times and more so recently that the show is the show and the books are the books. I think this is just a natural divergence in regards to him writing an episode or two for the show a season. Earlier on it was easier for him to write for the show because it was pretty much from the books. Now he would have to write for characters stories that are starting to diverge from his own. In reality this has more to do with him focusing on the books. He canceled his SDCC trip this summer to focus on the book and because he does not have a comic being released like last year or any writing credits for the show.

I think GRRM has stated before he'd like to see a movie for large battles at the end because there is only so much you can do with a TV budget .

In the article about the twist he seems to convey that it happened organically and just popped in to his mind, and that the show won't be able to duplicate it. I don't think he was trying to think of new twists with the prerequisite the show won't be able to do them. To what degree of influence that has on his choice to implement the twist or not we don't know.

Let's be honest as much fun as it is to speculate who might be affected i doubt 99% of us will be able to say during the first read through what was changed if anything

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Barristan could survive the battle. GRRM may want to reduce the number of POV's (Victarion is quite likely to die inn TWOW IMO), but Barristan may have information to share with Dany yet, or he could play a role as reputation-enhancer for Dany when she returns to Westeros. Show-Dany may not have the same need for that as (f)Aegon apparently isn't in the show, and if Varys is truly on her side in the show he could give her info that Barristan could give in the books.

I don't see any smoking gun foreshadowing that Barristan will not survive the battle with the Yunkai (or a possible clash with Victarion and co). He might fall, he might not.

I see Barristan living long enough to tell Dany something upon her return. Maybe he's wounded in the battle and doesn't get a chapter until she returns. (Or ever, that could be her chapter.) I think Victarion isn't done yet. If anything, I see him Han Soloing Mereen, saving the day at the last minute.

Plus Dany's council consisting of Barristan, Jorah, Tyrion, Victarion and Brown Benn Plumm is too awesome to not do.

[Mithras]

Barristan could survive the battle. GRRM may want to reduce the number of POV's (Victarion is quite likely to die inn TWOW IMO), but Barristan may have information to share with Dany yet, or he could play a role as reputation-enhancer for Dany when she returns to Westeros. Show-Dany may not have the same need for that as (f)Aegon apparently isn't in the show, and if Varys is truly on her side in the show he could give her info that Barristan could give in the books.

I don't see any smoking gun foreshadowing that Barristan will not survive the battle with the Yunkai (or a possible clash with Victarion and co). He might fall, he might not.

Dany refused to listen to Barristan twice. I think it is clear that Dany will not find another chance and worse, she is now not in a mental state to care what he would say given her epiphany at the Dothraki Sea.

Victarion is not some ships/horn delivery guy. This is not how narratives work. Victarion is getting a dragon.

And considering that George removed Viserion (who is spared for Tyrion) from the battlefield when the Greyjoys arrived, Victarion is getting Rhaegal that is circling above his ships.

Victarion will want to execute Hizdahr to free Dany's hand of marriage. Barristan will refuse. Victarion is highly outnumbered but he needs to take control of the city. So, he will challenge Barristan to produce seven champions to defend his cause. Baristan will have to accept. Victarion will take the control of Meereen after defeating all of them. This idea was given in AFfC by Harras Harlaw who took one of the Shield Islands by defeating seven champions. Then, their septon said that the Seven has spoken and hey yielded the castle to him.

After taking the control of the city, Victarion will execute Hizdahr for treason.

[Corvinus85]

Dany refused to listen to Barristan twice. I think it is clear that Dany will not find another chance and worse, she is now not in a mental state to care what he would say given her epiphany at the Dothraki Sea.

Victarion is not some ships/horn delivery guy. This is not how narratives work. Victarion is getting a dragon.

And considering that George removed Viserion (who is spared for Tyrion) from the battlefield when the Greyjoys arrived, Victarion is getting Rhaegal that is circling above his ships.

Victarion will want to execute Hizdahr to free Dany's hand of marriage. Barristan will refuse. Victarion is highly outnumbered but he needs to take control of the city. So, he will challenge Barristan to produce seven champions to defend his cause. Baristan will have to accept. Victarion will take the control of Meereen after defeating all of them. This idea was given in AFfC by Harras Harlaw who took one of the Shield Islands by defeating seven champions. Then, their septon said that the Seven has spoken and hey yielded the castle to him.

After taking the control of the city, Victarion will execute Hizdahr for treason.

There is no septon in Meereen to pronounce that kind of judgement, and I doubt Barristan will gamble Dany's city on a trial of arms. Though if there is to be a duel, it will be just between Barristan and Victarion, maybe told from Tyrion's POV.

Also, I think we'll see 1 vs 7 in Cersei's trial, with Robert Strong taking on the Faith's champions (at the same time).

[Mithras]

There is no septon in Meereen to pronounce that kind of judgement, and I doubt Barristan will gamble Dany's city on a trial of arms. Though if there is to be a duel, it will be just between Barristan and Victarion, maybe told from Tyrion's POV.

Also, I think we'll see 1 vs 7 in Cersei's trial, with Robert Strong taking on the Faith's champions (at the same time).

There does not need to be a septon. Victarion knows the tale. Victarion thinks that he is backed by two gods now. Barristan believes in the Seven. Victarion will proclaim that his cause is just. Barristan is too honorable to refuse such a challenge.

[Wouter]

Victarion is not some ships/horn delivery guy. This is not how narratives work. Victarion is getting a dragon.

Between Moqorro, Euron and Tyrion, I don't expect Victarion to get much joy from a dragon (or from the attempt to get one, depending on how far Martin lets him come). Moqorro has a double agenda (the "glory" he sees in his visions is unlikely to be something Victarion will like when it actually happens), Euron has been setting him up for something (I suspect he is following in "Silence", having left behind an impostor in the Reach) and Tyrion would easily have his measure if there would be a conflict.

[Reisz]

I don't wanna be this guy, because I hate this guy, but my mind immediately went to Jon and the possible unhinging of R+L=J.

I hope I'm wrong.