Does anybody else feel like it's all deliberate?

[ThePromiseThatWasAPrince]

I kind of feel like the way everything is set up in the books, and with TWOIAF basically giving us answers to a lot of questions, that in tWoW everything will go 180 degrees on us. I don't see anyone winning the Iron Throne, and after reading a few crazy (and believable) theories, (Ragonorak for exammple) I don't think it will end the way any of us want to. Does anyone else feel this way?

Someone please bring me back on track.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think some things will be as expected, but we were warned that TWOIAF was written by a Maester trying to curry favor with House Lannister so there will be misinformation in there. So I expect some surprises as well.

Aegon will take the throne. Dany may take it from him. I don't think there will be an Iron Throne in the end.

As to what any of us want, well we can't all get what we want. There will be some triumph and some disappointment, with enough of both to go around. And yes, there will be things none of us see coming, but it won't all be like that.

[ummester]

I think that a traditional happy fantasy ending will be entirely out of tone for this saga. Any ending that isn't dark, somewhat unexpected and morally confrontational will feel like it is tacked on.

It's not a matter of the saga doing a 180, it's a matter of the readers/fans still not accepting what it is about and where it is heading. No, it's not nihilistic - it's no more nihilistic than a revenge story. But it's not a happy bubbles and kisses as the King and Queen ascend the throne type story either.

Reverse engineer it - who, or what, is the primary antagonist in the story of ASoIaF? What thing drives the negative aspects of the story, what thing most sets the human hearts in conflict with themselves? Work out what that is and you will see what needs to be 'beaten' for the saga to conclude.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I think it will end the way it will end. Humanity will still be there and the Others will be defeated, but the Humans may be totally different. The ending can be happy for humanity and not be happy for the character we know and care about.

[Lord Wraith]

I kind of feel like the way everything is set up in the books, and with TWOIAF basically giving us answers to a lot of questions, that in tWoW everything will go 180 degrees on us. I don't see anyone winning the Iron Throne, and after reading a few crazy (and believable) theories, (Ragonorak for exammple) I don't think it will end the way any of us want to. Does anyone else feel this way?

Someone please bring me back on track.

I remember hearing that the ending will be bittersweet. GRR has so many plots going its hard to say who and what will be left. So many people playing the game of thrones when they should have been focused on the song of ice and fire.

I think some things will be as expected, but we were warned that TWOIAF was written by a Maester trying to curry favor with House Lannister so there will be misinformation in there. So I expect some surprises as well.

Aegon will take the throne. Dany may take it from him. I don't think there will be an Iron Throne in the end.

As to what any of us want, well we can't all get what we want. There will be some triumph and some disappointment, with enough of both to go around. And yes, there will be things none of us see coming, but it won't all be like that.

How do we know the Maester was currying favor with the Lannisters? I know Pycelle was working for them.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

How do we know the Maester was currying favor with the Lannisters? I know Pycelle was working for them.

I'm still working on the assumption that Pycelle is possibly from one of the families around the Lannisters. Why else would he have such an enormous hardon for Tywin?

[Lord Wraith]

I'm still working on the assumption that Pycelle is possibly from one of the families around the Lannisters. Why else would he have such an enormous hardon for Tywin?

Certainly possible. I've always been on the assumption that Pycelle became Tywin's man during his first successful time as Hand. Also gold probably lots of gold. Having the Grand Maester on your paypoll would be wise and I always wondered why Queen Rhaella had such a hard time producing children.

[Lord Lannister]

Certainly possible. I've always been on the assumption that Pycelle became Tywin's man during his first successful time as Hand. Also gold probably lots of gold. Having the Grand Maester on your paypoll would be wise and I always wondered why Queen Rhaella had such a hard time producing children.

You know... there might be something to that. Rhaella's first miscarriage was right after Tywin was named Hand. Though I was under the impression Tywin and Aerys' fued really didn't start until the Lannisport tourney in the 270's when he insulted Joanna.

[Lord Wraith]

You know... there might be something to that. Rhaella's first miscarriage was right after Tywin was named Hand. Though I was under the impression Tywin and Aerys' fued really didn't start until the Lannisport tourney in the 270's when he insulted Joanna.

Well that and depending whether people believe that the Maesters were trying to remove the Targs. Still I saw this from the wiki:

• miscarriage in 263 AC

• miscarriage in 264 AC

Princess Shaena Targaryen, born in 267 AC, stillborn

Prince Daeron Targaryen, born in 269 AC, lived only half a year

stillbirth in 270 AC, gender and name of child unnown

miscarriage in 271 AC

Prince Aegon Targaryen, born in 272 AC, born two months premature, died in 273 AC

Prince Jaehaerys Targaryen, born in 274 AC, died later that same year

You see that and you really start to wonder...

[Dorian Martell]

Well that and depending whether people believe that the Maesters were trying to remove the Targs. Still I saw this from the wiki:

• miscarriage in 263 AC
• miscarriage in 264 AC
• Princess Shaena Targaryen, born in 267 AC, stillborn
• Prince Daeron Targaryen, born in 269 AC, lived only half a year
• stillbirth in 270 AC, gender and name of child unnown
• miscarriage in 271 AC
• Prince Aegon Targaryen, born in 272 AC, born two months premature, died in 273 AC
• Prince Jaehaerys Targaryen, born in 274 AC, died later that same year

You see that and you really start to wonder...

You need not wonder. they are all inbred. There is a reason that it is considered an abomination A couple generations of Brother/Sister sex and folks end up with all sorts of issues. The only reason why Dany is so pretty is the fact that she exists in a fantasy novel.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GWl26m0OiWQ/TOaTVF_R3tI/AAAAAAAABUo/ray7D52ew6U/s1600/Inbred.jpg

[Humble Maester]

I think some things will be as expected, but we were warned that TWOIAF was written by a Maester trying to curry favor with House Lannister so there will be misinformation in there. So I expect some surprises as well.

How does the fact that TWOIAF was actually written for Robert Baratheon figure into it though? Perhaps tip-toeing around issues of his rebellion and his wife's family but, still, GRRM doesn't publish books full of partisan propaganda, what would the point of that be?

I usually refer to occams razor on most thing. Just like it's implied in TWOAIF he became pro-Tywin because Tywin was pretty good at ruling. And there isn't any grand underlying super-obscure mythological theory behind everything GRRM has written. Surprises, of course, but none of that cracked-pot nonsense.

[HexMachina]

How does the fact that TWOIAF was actually written for Robert Baratheon figure into it though? Perhaps tip-toeing around issues of his rebellion and his wife's family but, still, GRRM doesn't publish books full of partisan propaganda, what would the point of that be?

I usually refer to occams razor on most thing. Just like it's implied in TWOAIF he became pro-Tywin because Tywin was pretty good at ruling. And there isn't any grand underlying super-obscure mythological theory behind everything GRRM has written. Surprises, of course, but none of that cracked-pot nonsense.

Well the pages on Aerys II and the Tourney at Harrenhal at least are all heavily biased. It basically says that Tywin shits rainbows and flowers spring up wherever he steps while everyone else is incompetent or idiotic. I would say that is deliberate at least, because it obviously is important for the main series - and as such, GRRM will want to reveal the truth when the time is right

[BalerionTheCat]

I think a significant number of people here believe the Iron Throne will be undone.

Because of the way GRRM is negative with lords and knight and abuse of power ...

The Hound; "I am no knight. I spit on them and their vows. My brother is a knight",

I believe there will be great changes in the power structure.

And I also believe that TWOIAF changes everything. In fact, I would go as far as expecting something like the return of the Great Empire of the Dawn.

[Gerg Sknab]

Paraphrasing here again...Pycelle AFFC some Cersei chapter..."My loyalty is to the Crown, the Realm and to the House Lannister.". To which Cersei thinks to herself "which is your first loyalty?"

[The Wolves]

Paraphrasing here again...Pycelle AFFC some Cersei chapter..."My loyalty is to the Crown, the Realm and to the House Lannister.". To which Cersei thinks to herself "which is your first loyalty?"

Pycelle deserved to die for his loyalty to the Lannisters when the realm should have been his first priority.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

How do we know the Maester was currying favor with the Lannisters? I know Pycelle was working for them.

Because the book was dedicated to Tommen.

How does the fact that TWOIAF was actually written for Robert Baratheon figure into it though? Perhaps tip-toeing around issues of his rebellion and his wife's family but, still, GRRM doesn't publish books full of partisan propaganda, what would the point of that be?

I usually refer to occams razor on most thing. Just like it's implied in TWOAIF he became pro-Tywin because Tywin was pretty good at ruling. And there isn't any grand underlying super-obscure mythological theory behind everything GRRM has written. Surprises, of course, but none of that cracked-pot nonsense.

Robert hated the Targaryens and was married to a Lannister. Politics are always involved in these things.

GRRM didn't write the book. He had approval, and added a few things, but this is not something he sat down and worked out every tiny detail of himself. And he is the source of the warning that not everything it is is accurate.

The point of TWOIAF is to add to the series, and give us some fun while we wait for more books. And it also underscores the fact that ancient history cannot ever be fully known because information becomes lost, or is discarded as obsolete or mere myth (like the Children of the Forest, or the Others), and that can be a mistake because in Westeros at least history is indeed repeating itself.

Besides, what would be the point of putting out a book that has all the answers in it before the series is finished? That would destroy the mystery. We won't learn the truth any sooner than the characters figure it out, and that's the way the author wants it.

Occam's razor would work so much better for this if Occam were writing the series. Using Occam's razor, the Red Wedding was just about Walder Frey being upset that his daughter wouldn't be QitN, and Sybel Spicer would have given her daughter moon tea purely to be safe in case Robb lost. Tywin's involvement in both would never be realized. The simplest answer usually being the correct one doesn't really apply to ASOIAF.

I don't think there are super-obscure mythological theories behind everything either, but the author likes to surprise his readers. And some of those crackpots will turn out to be true.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'm still working on the assumption that Pycelle is possibly from one of the families around the Lannisters. Why else would he have such an enormous hardon for Tywin?

Change the P to a T and you have a Lannister name. He could be from a cadet branch.

[BalerionTheCat]

I don't think there are super-obscure mythological theories behind everything either, but the author likes to surprise his readers. And some of those crackpots will turn out to be true.

So far the crazy stories of Old Nan and the "myths only" knowledge of the masters (children, giants, dragonglass ...) seem quite accurate. And there are relatively concordant stories from different places of the world. So I would take part of these seriously. There are things however that doesn't match. And nothing justifies that something from the past must repeat in the present. But if someone can build a consistent theory, using elements of said legends, consistent and explaining the motives of Others, Red priests and whoever, I would take it seriously, however fantastic it looks like. How revolutionary it seems. So long as it remains in the spirit of past legends and current story.