If Rhaegar had lived, would he and Jon have liked each other?

[sarah.jenice]

I assume Rhaegar would have loved his child.

 

As to whether their personalities would have clashed, nobody can say since Jon would have grown up into a completely different person if he had been raised by his actual parents and not as the "Bastard of Winterfell"

This.

[Bloodrobin]

It is actually based on a number of things.
1. Rhaegar was willing to go to any length to fulfill his outlandish prophecy. So it is not difficult for me to imagine that he would even be willing to forcibly impregnate another person to achieve his goals.
2. All the Starks we have met so far have had strong devotion to their families. So it IS difficult for me to see Lyanna betraying her family for someone she just met.
3. Just because Lyanna is strong willed does not mean she went willingly. Sadly, rape can happen to anyone, regardless of how strong willed someone is (ex: Brienne just barley averted this fate under the imprisonment of the Bloody Mummers, and that's because a fellow inmate intervened on her behalf). To assume that rape only happens to weak people is not only false, it is outright offensive.
4. When Eddard got to the Tower of Joy, the Three Kingsguards Knights did not even try to negotiate or even to run. If Lyanna was there on her own terms, then surely the guards would try to reason with Eddard (after all, Jon Snow is her nephew). Instead, they fight to the death. This is probably because they know that if Lyanna tells Eddard about them helping her rapist kidnapp and imprison her, they are going to be executed.
5. Bran said Lyanna was raped. As this is a family matter, he probably heard this from Eddard.

I could go on, but the point is that I came to my conclusion based on my interpretation of what the story presents. Like I said, I am not alone in thinking that Rhaegar really is the monster he appears to be.

Now I don't want to sidetrack this discussion, so I will not mention this again in this thread. If you post a reply attempting to refute these points, I am going to flat-out ignore it. Now let's get back to the topic at hand.

 

1) That Rhaegar was willing go to any lengths to fulfill a prophecy is an assumption based on little evidence. As an example, do we know that Rhaegar was any more obsessed with the PtwP prophecy than Maester Aemon. Also, that the prophecy was outlandish is another relatively unsupported assumption, right? And even if he were obsessed with fulfilling a prophecy, being willing to forcibly rape and impregnate Lyanna to do so is not only unsupported, but we have counter-evidence of Rhaegar's character from both Ned and Ser Barristan.

 

2) All the Starks may be devoted to family, but we also know that many Starks have a "wildness" in them. One example is Brandon. We have Ned describing Lyanna as willful and wild, right?

 

3) Rape can and does happen even to the willful and strong, but it can easily be argued that it is less likely to happen to those who fight it. This is true even in our own modern world. Regardless of whether she was willful and strong, we have very little evidence that rape did happen to Lyanna.

 

4) The KG at the ToJ were dealing with Ned as a representative of Robert the Usurper, from whom they would be sworn to protect whoever their liege had assigned them to protect. Their duty was not to negotiate or run. Their duty was to fight to the death. They surely knew that Ned Stark was an honorable man who would do his own duty, which ran counter to theirs.

 

5) Bran said Lyanna was raped. Robert said this as well. But Ned does not necessarily seem to believe it. He does not agree with Robert when he makes the accusation, and he certainly does not think of Rhaegar in the way the brother of a man whose sister was raped by him naturally would. We have multiple examples of Ned thinking almost favorably of Rhaegar. This does not match the way he should be thinking of the man who raped his sister. Bran could have heard it from Ned, but he also could have heard it from others. Even if he heard it from others in Ned's presence, Ned would not have openly contradicted the account, because doing so might compromise Jon. "Promise me, Ned."

 

You certainly are not alone in thinking Rhaegar was a monster. Other characters think of him this way. But we have many (even more?) examples of those who do not. Obviously GRRM intends for the readers to have to consider which view of Rhaegar is accurate, which is why we see these discussion here.

 

ETA: To the original point, it is very hard to say what the relationship of Rhaegar and Jon would have been. Had Jon been raised by Rhaegar in KL as a Targaryen prince, he would certainly have been a completely different person than he became as a result of having been raised as a bastard of Winterfell. Maybe their personalities would have conflicted? However, I don't doubt that, to some degree, they would likely have loved each other as father and son. 

[A Bastard Snow]

I imagine Jon would grow to dislike Rhaegar for blindly following a prophecy that got his mother brother sister uncle grandfather and tens of thousands killed.I see him taking to Ned or Arthur Dayne more then his father.I mean Jon is a somber person imagine him feeling responsible for so much death.Not to mention that Rhaegar did nothing to stop his father from burning innocent people.Also I imagine Rhaegar fucking Jon's life up by trying to fulfil the prophecy by Jon having 3 kids.

[~DarkHorse~]

Why? Because the readers do?

  :agree:

 

Allot of people go with the assumption that Jon will completely reject his Targaryen lineage, not giving a damn about his birth father because they hate Rhaegar and love Ned (and House Stark). I think Jon is more mature than that. 

 

I can see the parallel in the Lyanna/Arya thing, but then, love vs. duty is a theme that pops up in a lot of other characters' narratives.

 

And I hate to pull the "we don't know enough about him" argument, but...well, we don't know enough about Rhaegar to say that he was a poor communicator.
 

 

Having the realm think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna because he forgot to leave a letter proves that he communicated poorly (certainly on this matter). He most likely kept his prophecy to himself and played God.

 

But you are right we can only speculate on the few things we know about Rhaegar.

 

However, I would say Jon has more of Rhaegar in him that people give him credit for.

[XSarellaX]

I tend to believe they would have loved each other, but Rhaegar would have driven Jon nuts trying to prepare him to face a threat he doesn't even know what is.
"Well, son, you know humanity is in serious danger, right? Since we don't what is gonna happen, just make sure to excell in everything I can think of, OK? Yeah, even the harp"

[Lady Blackmont]

3. Just because Lyanna is strong willed does not mean she went willingly. Sadly, rape can happen to anyone, regardless of how strong willed someone is (ex: Brienne just barley averted this fate under the imprisonment of the Bloody Mummers, and that's because a fellow inmate intervened on her behalf). To assume that rape only happens to weak people is not only false, it is outright offensive.

Are you kidding?

Do you know what we are taught about rape? Women are told to gouge out their eyes, kick, bite, punch, slap, do whatever possible to prevent them from holding on to you and run away.

A person with more physical strength or endurance like Lyanna would certainly have an advantage over someone who does not. And the Brienne comparison makes absolutely no sense. Brienne was going to be gang raped by multiple people while in bondage.

[Lady Blackmont]

I imagine Jon would grow to dislike Rhaegar for blindly following a prophecy that got his mother brother sister uncle grandfather and tens of thousands killed.I see him taking to Ned or Arthur Dayne more then his father.I mean Jon is a somber person imagine him feeling responsible for so much death.Not to mention that Rhaegar did nothing to stop his father from burning innocent people.Also I imagine Rhaegar fucking Jon's life up by trying to fulfil the prophecy by Jon having 3 kids.

The war would have been averted if Ned and Robert had just turned themselves in. And they actually knew they would be starting a war, Rhaegar didn't.

[Bloodrobin]

 

Having the realm think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna because he forgot to leave a letter, proves that he communicated poorly (certainly on this matter). He most likely kept his prophecy to himself and played God.

 

But you are right we can only speculate on the few things we know about Rhaegar.

 

However, I would say Jon has more of Rhaegar in him that people give him credit for.

 

This may not be the case. It may not have been possible for him to leave a letter or communicate better. Or maybe he did communicate well, but such communication was lost in the "fog of war" that followed the "abduction."

 

Consider this. Rhaegar was by all accounts intelligent and insightful. Suppose he shrewdly guessed that it was Lyanna who posed as the KotLT in the tourney and that, rather than disrespecting his wife or pledging his love and devotion to Lyanna, his laying the roses in her lap after winning the tourney was his way of showing respect to her act of courage and chivalry. As a knight, Rhaegar would have respected her act regardless of any love interest. The same would have been true had she been a man, but her being female made the feat even more difficult. But his (reckless?) show of respect to Lyanna had grave fallout. Aerys declared the KotL an enemy of the crown and sent his men to find and expose him/her. Rhaegar might have felt obligated to try and protect Lyanna from such fallout. We don't know what happened, but they could have been thrown together in circumstances other than immediate romance. Love could have bloomed in the wake of that. Likewise, being "on the run" might have made communication difficult. We just don't know enough about what happened to judge accurately, which is as GRRM intended. Intrigue and mystery make the story more interesting.

[Bloodrobin]

 

Having the realm think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna because he forgot to leave a letter, proves that he communicated poorly (certainly on this matter). He most likely kept his prophecy to himself and played God.

 

But you are right we can only speculate on the few things we know about Rhaegar.

 

However, I would say Jon has more of Rhaegar in him that people give him credit for.

 

This may not be the case. It may not have been possible for him to leave a letter or communicate better. Or maybe he did communicate well, but such communication was lost in the "fog of war" that followed the "abduction."

 

Consider this. Rhaegar was by all accounts intelligent and insightful. Suppose he shrewdly guessed that it was Lyanna who posed as the KotLT in the tourney and that, rather than disrespecting his wife or pledging his love and devotion to Lyanna, his laying the roses in her lap after winning the tourney was his way of showing respect to her act of courage and chivalry. As a knight, Rhaegar would have respected her act regardless of any love interest. The same would have been true had she been a man, but her being female made the feat even more difficult. But his (reckless?) show of respect to Lyanna had grave fallout. Aerys declared the KotL an enemy of the crown and sent his men to find and expose him/her. Rhaegar might have felt obligated to try and protect Lyanna from such fallout. We don't know what happened, but they could have been thrown together in circumstances other than immediate romance. Love could have bloomed in the wake of that. Likewise, being "on the run" might have made communication difficult. We just don't know enough about what happened to judge accurately, which is as GRRM intended. Intrigue and mystery make the story more interesting. :)

[The Wolves]

I imagine Jon would grow to dislike Rhaegar for blindly following a prophecy that got his mother brother sister uncle grandfather and tens of thousands killed.I see him taking to Ned or Arthur Dayne more then his father.I mean Jon is a somber person imagine him feeling responsible for so much death.Not to mention that Rhaegar did nothing to stop his father from burning innocent people.Also I imagine Rhaegar fucking Jon's life up by trying to fulfil the prophecy by Jon having 3 kids.

This ideology that Jon is going to dislike Rhaegar because of the thousands of people who died and who he never met always bugs the shit out of me.


Why would Jon be mad at Rhadgar on behalf of people he never met?

[Lady Blackmont]

This ideology that Jon is going to dislike Rhaegar because of the thousands of people who died and who he never met always bugs the shit out of me.


Why would Jon be mad at Rhadgar on behalf of people he never met?

Because causing war is apparently a supporting reason to dislike someone. But if you like them, it is excuseable.

Ned, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Dareon I, Aegon, Jaime, Catelyn... The list goes on and on. Everyone likes some of them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You seriously think she was kidnapped against her will? A girl who was somewhat of A fighter made no noise. And 1 million other things

That is so funny. First things first you have a teen girl with little to no martial education against 2 KG and the Prince. Of course she could beat them all with one hand when she was combing her hair with the other. Second, how do you know that she made no noise? Third if she had gone willingly why no one had news from her for a year and fourth do you know what Stockholm syndrome is?

[Orphalesion]

. Second, how do you know that she made no noise?

 

Very true it could have been a "Come quietly or things will get ugly for whoever hears you scream" situation.

 

 

 do you know what Stockholm syndrome is?

 

I know that one :laugh: It's what Daenerys developed in relation to Drogo!

[Valyrian Blade]

If Jon grows up as Rhaegar's son there'a no doubt he would've loved him.

The only reason why our Jon values honor and duty, it's because he grew up as a son of Eddard Stark in the north, and his sullen personality is because he grew up as a bastard.

Point is Jon would be an entirely different person if he grew up as prince Jon Targaryen.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

 

snip

I agree with almost everything you have said. However I believe that she went willingly but when she wanted to leave he wasn't allowed it.

Jon would love Rhaegar until Rhaegar decides to upgrade from Lyanna to Margaery.

Actually I can see Rhaegar doing that. He did it once why he couldn't do it again if Lyanna couldn't give him a daughter. Maybe not Marg but another Lady.

Very true it could have been a "Come quietly or things will get ugly for whoever hears you scream" situation.

Or maybe Lyanna went willingly but she wasn't allowed to leave.

I know that one :laugh: It's what Daenerys developed in relation to Drogo!

And I bet that this was the same thing between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[Bloodrobin]

Based on some comments, Rhaegar is like a Rorschach test. People see all kinds of stuff in him that is not necessarily present in the text.  :laugh: 

[TimJames]

I imagine Jon would grow to dislike Rhaegar for blindly following a prophecy that got his mother brother sister uncle grandfather and tens of thousands killed.I see him taking to Ned or Arthur Dayne more then his father.I mean Jon is a somber person imagine him feeling responsible for so much death.Not to mention that Rhaegar did nothing to stop his father from burning innocent people.Also I imagine Rhaegar fucking Jon's life up by trying to fulfil the prophecy by Jon having 3 kids.

I agree with the above quote.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Having the realm think he kidnapped and raped Lyanna because he forgot to leave a letter proves that he communicated poorly (certainly on this matter). He most likely kept his prophecy to himself and played God.

 

But you are right we can only speculate on the few things we know about Rhaegar.

 

However, I would say Jon has more of Rhaegar in him that people give him credit for.

 

That doesn't prove poor communication - he could have not told anyone because he simply didn't care what others thought happened, or maybe he wrote a letter, but delivery was slow. It could be that the letter was deliberately kept from Robert & co, by someone who wanted war. Too many possibilities for a definite interpretation, imo.

 

As for the prophecy, Rhaegar had no reason to share it's contents with everybody. From what we've been told, it sounds like the prophecy talks about a sole hero, not the whole realm, defeating evil. Rhaegar likely thought it was his burden to carry. That said, Rhaegar did discuss the prophecy with Maester Aemon, and (if the HOTU vision was showing a real event) his wife.

 

 

Based on some comments, Rhaegar is like a Rorschach test. People see all kinds of stuff in him that is not necessarily present in the text.  :laugh:

So much transference/projection... You get that with all minor characters though. Hell, I'm probably guilty of it.

[Varysfan]

 I know that one :laugh: It's what Daenerys developed in relation to Drogo!

THIS^^^^^

Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert, she knew he'd be fucking whores and let's face it, that's not Rhaegars style so one reason she might like Rhaegar. Of course all the women fancied Rhaegar too, there was the whole queen of love and beauty thing too. Little finger suggests in the show that Rhaegar didn't rape her, and Neds silence when Robert talks of him raping her speaks volumes! I really don't see it being anything but consensual from the get go.
As for Rhaegar being melancholic, I think this is overplayed, of course he was having dreams and reading prophecies that shaped his thinking, these things would be enough to skew anyone's happiness though if you spent your days thinking about how you had to make a son to save the world from the others despite a distinct lack of dragons, and the possibility that the prophecies and your dreams may have shown your own death before your saviour ofmtehnworld son is even born.
With all this in mind I think people overlook the similarities between Jon and Rhaegar, of course they were brought up in very different circumstances but their manner their desires what seems to be their destinies are very much entwined!
So to answer the question, Jon would have loved the true Rhaegar given a chance to know him, I have no doubt about that, it was yet another thing taken from him by the game of thrones!

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

Rheagar would have loved Jon no doubt and Jon wouldn't have to deal with all the bullshit he got from the Starks on the real! You know he would have been an awesome dad teaching him sword and music he couldve been getting laid left and right with such a combo. Damn war hammers to the chest they screw everything up