Rant & Rave without repercussion S 5 continued [book spoilers]

[Eurybia]

It just illustrates that quality =/=popularity. Hannibal didn't catch on because it was too 'slow' and 'arty' for people. Ugh. 

Ugh, indeed. The bloodbath at the end of Hannibal's second season > GoT's Red Wedding, for so many reasons, imo. I also always appreciate it when women aren't used as interchangeable rape dolls. Bryan Fuller's amazing.

Sorry, Bobby, for the bad news in such a bitter way! This season's been so good too. I haven't given up hope that it'll find a home down the road, after American Gods airs and/or Netflix is able to get streaming rights.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Yep, this is the last season, sadly. And it's been the best yet imo. 
 
There was talk of Amazon picking it up but it came to naught. Also, Bryan Fuller is now involved in American Gods (I would wish we could switch producers around so we get him, but then D&D would go ruin another good book). 

Damn I've been watching it just finished season 2 and it's better than got in every way bar budget.

[Crixus]

Fuller gave an amazing interview on his distaste regarding sexual violence against women on Hannibal: http://www.themarysue.com/bryan-fuller-discusses-sexual-assault-tv/

 

Best bit? Hannibal is terrifying, gritty, atmospheric and basically for grown ups in every sense of the word. And it doesn't do rape. 

 

In DDland, though, rape is the ONLY way to be adult. 

 

The irony, it burnsssss 

[Eurybia]

For how loose an adaptation Hannibal is, Fuller's team stay remarkably close to the source material. It's a complete reinvention but with huge chunks of dialogue and inner monologue lifted from the books, and with situations and moments adapted in detail (in his book intro, a character is described as fiddling with a statue, and when they adapted the scene a few eps ago, there is was).

But where they break is pretty fascinating too. Remember Cat in season one urging Ned to stay in Winterfell instead of what her book counterpart wanted? They basically did the opposite of this on Hannibal. I noticed the change and it made me laugh. GoT undercuts ASOIAF's female characters all the time, trying to make them "likeable" or "badass" or just into Jeyne Poole...

[Le Cygne]

I was mulling over the sex in GoT compared to shows like Spartacus and Outlander and I realised (apologies if this is a dead pony!), that while the latter 2 focus more on the chemistry between characters and portray sex as sensual, freeing and intimate (as well as violent and brutal in some cases), GoT hardly ever actually shows couples engaging in anything similar. Apart from 1 Dany/Drogo scene (where she 'changes the game') and 2 Robb/Talisa scenes, all their scenes show naked women, usually prostitutes. They flaunt themselves around fully clothed men, more often than not.

 

I agree with all of what you said. I liked both Sparatcus and Outlander far, far more than Game of Thrones, in every way, but in terms of sexuality, and the way it's presented, there's nothing to even compare, Game of Thrones is that dismal.

 

If anyone wants to see what we are talking about, just watch season 1 episode 7 of Outlander. The difference is everything.

 

The gaze with Robb and Talisa was male gaze, there was a brief moment where you see his butt in one scene, but you don't get the impression that's Talisa looking at him, but an obligatory butt shot. The focus in both of their scenes was her body.

 

Outlander never does that, but in the wedding episode (the one I mentioned above), and it's not a spoiler, it's a story about a marriage, rather than a courtship, so it's pretty clear it's headed that way from the beginning, it's just beautiful.

 

The camera is showing the way both characters feel, Claire desires Jamie, Jamie desires Claire, and the viewer is caught up in their story. It's not like on Game of Thrones where the nudity is for titillation, on Outlander, it's about telling a story.

 

One of the nice ways to show this mutual desire is they undress each other. GRRM did that with Dany and Drogo and with Dany and Daario, but the show did not. On their wedding night, Drogo takes off his bells, and Dany has been watching him, and then she offers to take off his bells. It's a very subtle shift, but it signals her desire, she's undressing him.

 

And with Dany and Daario, the same thing, she tells him to take off his clothes. And he tells her to take off hers, too. It's mutual. The show doesn't get that. They had her stark naked in the tub, then they had him strip. And they never even showed them kiss until the last scene, that still bothers me. A kiss is what shows more than lust, these feelings that are stirring from the start.

 

Why would they cut that, even as just something they want before it even happens, and they did it in other stories, too. It's such an easy way to convey these emotions, from the earliest stages. There's nothing more romantic than a kiss.

 

Anyway, they just don't get romance. But if they'd just followed the book scenes, it's right there.

[Ainara S]

Ugh, indeed. The bloodbath at the end of Hannibal's second season > GoT's Red Wedding, for so many reasons, imo. I also always appreciate it when women aren't used as interchangeable rape dolls. Bryan Fuller's amazing.

Sorry, Bobby, for the bad news in such a bitter way! This season's been so good too. I haven't given up hope that it'll find a home down the road, after American Gods airs and/or Netflix is able to get streaming rights.

Yeah, the Red Wedding could've been much more better. I mean, why did the northmen just... stand there? Waiting to be butchered? It felt really coreographed. The book's Red Wedding was much more visceral, with little details like Dacey Mormont getting killed after struggling to battle someone, the Smalljon throwing a table... Ok, expecting the show to have all these characters named might be a little too much, but at least show the dudes who are supposed to be on Robb's side trying to fight back.

[Le Cygne]

In DDland, though, rape is the ONLY way to be adult. 

 

I think I will hate Benioff and Weiss forever, not only for having Ramsay rape Sansa, but for having him say that made her a woman.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

I object to this Rhaegar is a hippy talk.

 

Rhaegar = Allen Schezar = Amano Susumu in magical girl land who was the captain of the track team.

 

Rhaegar jock status confirmed.  He also clearly was cast as the lead in all the school plays as well as being student class vice president (president would be too greedy).

 

However, when it comes to D&D I trust they will either try and maim him like they did Stannis for actually being an honorable person at heart (Rhaegar was driven by his ambition, not on a sense of fufilling prophecy for the good of the Realm), or degrade him into cool scumbag territory like Ramsey/Littlefinger.

[TepidHands]

First, I want to thank Helena for approving a new RnR thread, because this is my "happy place" when I get frustrated with the fanboying elsewhere on this board.

 

Second, I cannot wait for American Gods. Loved the book, and trust the showrunners not to fark it up.

 

Third, I wonder sometimes if GoT's huge budget, TV-wise, hasn't been its downfall. Not just production budget, but promotion and marketing as well. Have you SEEN the merchandise shop? That's what I need: Dragon Egg wine stoppers and an Ice letter opener.

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

I think I will hate Benioff and Weiss forever, not only for having Ramsay rape Sansa, but for having him say that made her a woman.

Yes, agreed and I fear that they may not be done with her abuse or worse, what will they make her become now? Cersei 2.0 and I am not talking Carol either. They seem to have a strong dislike for Sansa's book character so they are taking it out on her TV character Fansa.

[A Ghost of Someone]

One thing about the Rheagar reflection is that he put asside a wife. Not just any but a Princess of Dorne to take another woman to fulfill a pophecy that many of his ancestors had been potentially wrong in their attempted fulfillment of other prophesies. How does Dorne feel about Rheagar? We know on the show that Prince Oberyn seems to feel that Rheagar dishonored his sister (DUH) but then, he never says anything more about it.  I hope GRRM in TWOW has the true story of how it all went down with Lyanna and Rheagar so we know if D&D are faithful in their telling of this particulat tale.

[LongRider]

One thing about the Rheagar reflection is that he put asside a wife. ~~~snip~~~

 

 

This is a legitimate concern about Rhaegar, he had a wife with two children and yet he ran off with Lyanna.  This is a fact. Lyanna wanted to escape Robert and she loved Rhaegar (is how I read the story at least).  So with the bare bones of the story in mind, how could the present show runners get it right? 

 

Sadly, don't see it. 

[voodooqueen126]

Yes, agreed and I fear that they may not be done with her abuse or worse, what will they make her become now? Cersei 2.0 and I am not talking Carol either. They seem to have a strong dislike for Sansa's book character so they are taking it out on her TV character Fansa.

Yeah but book Cersei never called herself a 'stupid little girl' laughed at Tyrion's jokes, would be silly enough to ask if her family could come to her wedding and then accepted death.

Book Cersei will go down fighting.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah but book Cersei never called herself a 'stupid little girl' laughed at Tyrion's jokes, would be silly enough to ask if her family could come to her wedding and then accepted death.
Book Cersei will go down fighting.

 
Book Cersei doesn't have a pimp, either. True, LF is pimping Sansa out in the books, too. But they never make changes for the good. If she's going to be a femme fatale on their show, make her a good one. And make her do it solo, not at LF's behest.
 
Or maybe, here's a thought, just do what the books do, seeing as it's an adaptation of a bestselling book series and all. On the show, she's a failed forced bride, a failed kidnap victim, a failed femme fatale, ... she can't seem to do anything right.

 

(They had Catelyn say "I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived" just before she died. Then they had Sansa say "If I'm going to die, let it happen while there's still some of me left." Strong female characters.)

[TepidHands]

 

This is a legitimate concern about Rhaegar, he had a wife with two children and yet he ran off with Lyanna.  This is a fact. Lyanna wanted to escape Robert and she loved Rhaegar (is how I read the story at least).  So with the bare bones of the story in mind, how could the present show runners get it right? 

 

Sadly, don't see it. 

I fear you're absolutely right, but it can be done. It's being done with "Outlander": Claire loves Frank and loves Jamie, and marries both. There's a lot of hocus-pocus in there to make it happen, but her heart IS conflicted, and it's handled with taste and care by the writers, the directors, and the actors. But with this batch of writers and directors (not gonna blame the actors here) it's like comparing these: 

[Le Cygne]

This is a legitimate concern about Rhaegar, he had a wife with two children and yet he ran off with Lyanna.  This is a fact. Lyanna wanted to escape Robert and she loved Rhaegar (is how I read the story at least).  So with the bare bones of the story in mind, how could the present show runners get it right? 

 

Sadly, don't see it. 

 

Rhaegar/Elia was a political marriage. And all parties were agreeable. Could be.

[LongRider]

 

Rhaegar/Elia was a political marriage. And all parties were agreeable. Could be.

 

Perhaps Elia insisted that she and Rhaegar live in a brothel, she was from Dorne, after all.       :rolleyes:

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

Book Cersei doesn't have a pimp, either. True, LF is pimping Sansa out in the books, too. But they never make changes for the good. If she's going to be a femme fatale on their show, make her a good one. And make her do it solo, not at LF's behest.

 

Or maybe, here's a thought, just do what the books do, seeing as it's an adaptation of a bestselling book series and all. On the show, she's a failed forced bride, a failed kidnap victim, a failed femme fatale, ... she can't seem to do anything right.

This apparently is what the showrunners want her to be or either they cannot see or do they care about a character from a best selling book series and made her look like.

[A Ghost of Someone]

There are a lot of questions about Lyanna and Rheagar and in particular, the erruption of events after the "abduction" or "elopement" if you will. Did Lyanna know what happened to her brother and father and several nobles who were their companions? Did she care? Did Rheagar. If they were in love, fine but were there any regrets or atleast heartbreak for the trouble that was caused. Lyanna almost had her family wiped out but did she give a fig? Those are some of the questions i want answered.

[LongRider]

I fear you're absolutely right, but it can be done. It's being done with "Outlander": Claire loves Frank and loves Jamie, and marries both. There's a lot of hocus-pocus in there to make it happen, but her heart IS conflicted, and it's handled with taste and care by the writers, the directors, and the actors. But with this batch of writers and directors (not gonna blame the actors here) it's like comparing these: 

 

I haven't seen Outlander but have read 1 1/2 books of the series.  Just not my reading cup 'o tea, do think it could be a good TV series tho, and so far, reports of that have been very good. 

 

And come to think of it, there could could be much of conflicted hearts from both Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Rhaegar might love Elia, but his obsession of the prophesy has been made flesh in the body of Lyanna, who it turns out, he has began to love for herself.  Lyanna is conflicted between heart and duty, although she doesn't want Robert, still she loves her family and knows she has responsibilities there. Responsibilities that conflict with her free spirit, the part of her that loves Rhaegar.

 

Could be great TV.